Got away with it …….again

[Gordon Bennett 780]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

To a degree, but at this level Gibbs and Sorensen are capable, which I'm guessing was part of the pre-season thinking.

Essentially we have three defensive midfielders and two and a half left backs injured yet we are winning and sit second, I don't think we are doing too badly. Those injuries leave holes of course but we have adapted pretty well really.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Gordon Bennett

[sonyc 5,481]

3 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i think with the new Signings and Gibbs now Mclean will be benched 

until we have a fully fit squad he will be ok and at this level a good squad player

I've said before we have really missed Gibbs. Once Sara gets fully up to speed (very soon?) plus we see what Hayden can do then McLean will be a bench option.

It is very positive that Smith has given young Gibbs a chance. Reminds me of Farke with Max and Jamal. Good enough whatever your age? You earn your place. 

[hogesar 9,609]

13 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i think with the new Signings and Gibbs now Mclean will be benched 

until we have a fully fit squad he will be ok and at this level a good squad player 

One thing that annoys me more than anything about Mclean is he is so so quick to point and shout at others mistakes but he makes just as many if not more 

to be the pointer in the team  you have to be the Best / most effort and lead by example i can do it why can you not type Kenny has to be 8/10 to be that guy and sadly he is not good enough to lead by example 

That's just demonstrably not true. Also, I suspect Mclean will play most matches with others fit, he just won't play the DM role.

As for 'pointing and shouting' - no-one else in our midfield is communicating or instructing and his experience means he does that role for the manager and the team. If he gives the ball away it doesn't mean you can't instruct others. There's plenty of examples of average players being very good leaders.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

15 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i think with the new Signings and Gibbs now Mclean will be benched 

until we have a fully fit squad he will be ok and at this level a good squad player 

One thing that annoys me more than anything about Mclean is he is so so quick to point and shout at others mistakes but he makes just as many if not more 

to be the pointer in the team  you have to be the Best / most effort and lead by example i can do it why can you not type Kenny has to be 8/10 to be that guy and sadly he is not good enough to lead by example 

He was pretty much 8/10 last night. What we're all those mistakes you saw?

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

He was pretty much 8/10 last night. What we're all those mistakes you saw?

Not sure if this is the case here, but one eye-catching mis-placed pass quite often equals "he gave the ball away all night"

[Google Bot 3,255]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

The thing I'm not so happy about from last night was the work we did off the ball. Yes having a DM would help that but I'd still expect to see midfielders doing more in terms of pressing and making life a little more difficult for the Bristol midfield

Felt that when watching too, but I'm starting to realise that Smith is exploiting the long game. He talked alot about being physical and high pressing before start of the season - but I've not really seen it - So I think he's changed tact a bit.  That may be because he's limited without a true DM to sit behind?  Who knows on that.

It was very notable that around the time Sarge scored Bristol had slowed right down and we were starting to gain more time on the ball, plus we still had plenty in reserve.  It was only when Bristol scored the second that they found that extra burst of energy. 

If it weren't for that goal, I honestly think we would've scored a 4th.  And I can see Smith's thinking on this, It seems deliberate to me... And who can knock it, 18 points in 6 - Sarge and Pukki both scoring.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Fr. Chewy Louie said:

Agreed, and there seemed to be a number of instances where the ball broke in a 50:50 area and we were really slow to react.

Can't argue with the results obviously, but I hope Smith can actually get us playing to our potential.

I think its because the midfield has no shape. It seems they are allowed to go where they like and I believe we have to have at least one player holding that middle. We keep hearing that Hayden is getting fitter but we've played a fifth of the season already and there is no sign of him anytime soon. Its a worry.

Kenny cannot play that role, he hasn't the discipline. Young Gibbs was doing it fairly well of course. So often when we lose it, the opposition can find gaps in a midfield that is spread far and wide at times. Consequently, Aarons and Byram go narrow to cover and it happened  last night when Sykes had all the time in the world out on their right.

We obviously have the best squad in the league so we are getting away with it to a degree. Our mistakes like last nights 20 minutes of giving the ball back to them are not being punished enough for us to suffer but it looked like we were panicking a lot once their second went in.

Mind you, we had enough chances on the break to score another couple but the bad miss by Sinani and poor passing from Onel spoilt that.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

I'm really not sure which elements of the performance people are unhappy about. Ultimately we should have scored a couple more and conceded a couple less, but that's in an ideal world. 

Bristol City set up in such an attacking way it was always going to be open. They seemed happy to try and defend 3 on 3 (sometimes 3 on 4) and ultimately paid the price. 

The two goals we conceded were both avoidable: the first we had plenty of players back but Hanley lost his man; the second had two fouls in the buildup then Nunez totally fluffed it up in our own box. Otherwise we allowed them plenty of possession, especially in wide areas, without great risk. 

Sinani had two great chances. Pukki could have had a third. Nunez missed two perfect opportunities to put Pukki through. I honestly think that 5-0 wouldn't have been an unfair reflection of the game.

I'm not a Dean Smith fan. But I'm really happy with the way the team is playing, especially since binning the 4-3-3. A decent holding midfielder and a few more weeks for Nunez and Sara to get up to speed and we'll be much more solid.

 

This.

The no 10 is important for Pukki, to make sure he's not isolated.

Now imagining a midfield 2 of Hayden and Gibbs/Sara with Nunez further forward. Nice.

[king canary 7,560]

3 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Felt that when watching too, but I'm starting to realise that Smith is exploiting the long game. He talked alot about being physical and high pressing before start of the season - but I've not really seen it - So I think he's changed tact a bit.  That may be because he's limited without a true DM to sit behind?  Who knows on that.

It was very notable that around the time Sarge scored Bristol had slowed right down and we were starting to gain more time on the ball, plus we still had plenty in reserve.  It was only when Bristol scored the second that they found that extra burst of energy. 

If it weren't for that goal, I honestly think we would've scored a 4th.  And I can see Smith's thinking on this, It seems deliberate to me... And who can knock it, 18 points in 6 - Sarge and Pukki both scoring.

Yeah I think I agree with all of that- at 3-1, until the error I thought we looked more likely to add a 4th than them a 2nd. 

I do think he'd like us to press more but the lack of a DM kind of makes that tougher- if you don't have a solid defensive screen you're maybe more worried about what happens if they beat our press. Saying that, Smith did specifically call out after the game that he wasn't happy with how passive we were off the ball so even with the injuries I think he'd like to see more than he did last night from the midfield, even if that doesn't mean a relentless high press.

[hogesar 9,609]

17 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

He was pretty much 8/10 last night. What we're all those mistakes you saw?

With all the usual caveats attached to stats, WhoScored has Kenny as the third best player on the pitch last night, with a 7.6, so not far away from this 8/10 @norfolkngood is after! 😉

Before I continue, let me say I really like Nunez and think he'll be an important player for us. But if there's ever been a case of pre-conception and deciding on a players performance by seeing what you want to see then this is a clear example. You've seen this thread and others criticise Kenny on here, when his midfield partner is the one who's error directly led to a goal, giving the ball away on the edge of the area.

Kenny also got an assist and had a higher pass % than Nunez, giving it away less. And yesterday wasn't an example of Nunez hitting lots of long balls where you expect the % to be lower, either.

We also had Byram caught up the pitch / out of position and Hanley with a shoulder injury meaning Kenny was also doing the work of covering the left area of the pitch at times, combined with Nunez more 'wandering' style it's not really surprising they got through our midfield pretty regularly. That did improve when Smith matched them up some minutes before halftime.

[WD40 720]

We don’t look like a premier league team in waiting, but I accept there’s no point getting too far down that road until Christmas.
 

However not talking about how ill equipped we are for the premier league and hoping the summer window will sort it all out when we are promoted is foolish. History suggests if we’re relying on good recruitment to make the team better it won’t happen. Hard to get excited about a promotion push unfortunately. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

13 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think its because the midfield has no shape. It seems they are allowed to go where they like and I believe we have to have at least one player holding that middle. We keep hearing that Hayden is getting fitter but we've played a fifth of the season already and there is no sign of him anytime soon. Its a worry.

Kenny cannot play that role, he hasn't the discipline. Young Gibbs was doing it fairly well of course. So often when we lose it, the opposition can find gaps in a midfield that is spread far and wide at times. Consequently, Aarons and Byram go narrow to cover and it happened  last night when Sykes had all the time in the world out on their right.

We obviously have the best squad in the league so we are getting away with it to a degree. Our mistakes like last nights 20 minutes of giving the ball back to them are not being punished enough for us to suffer but it looked like we were panicking a lot once their second went in.

Mind you, we had enough chances on the break to score another couple but the bad miss by Sinani and poor passing from Onel spoilt that.

Agreed. The problem with Kenny in that role is not that he's not a good player. Its a question of positional discipline. he gets dragged towards the ball. The problem is Nunez does the same. he puts in a great shift running all over the place. When you add in Cantwell as well you have 3 players who are generally roaming all over the pitch. This can be very effective when we win the ball back and break, but when they get sucked in and the opposition beat the press it leaves a huge amount of space in front of our centre backs and full backs for teams to run into. If a few of them were better in the final third then we would have been punished more in recent games.

If Kenny os going to continue playing that holding role (and we don;t really have a choice til Hayden and Gibbs are fit) then someone needs to take him aside and tell him to hold his position more rather than constantly running to where the ball is. 

[shefcanary 2,377]

4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

If Kenny os going to continue playing that holding role (and we don;t really have a choice til Hayden and Gibbs are fit) then someone needs to take him aside and tell him to hold his position more rather than constantly running to where the ball is. 

I think managers have been taking him aside for quite a while however! Kenny is someone who won't change his spots. He will be a great contributor in someone's team, just not ours. He's probably good to have in the dressing room though. 🙂 

[norfolkngood 1,086]

41 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

He was pretty much 8/10 last night. What we're all those mistakes you saw?

i was talking in his General play the last few seasons 

 

[norfolkngood 1,086]

45 minutes ago, hogesar said:

That's just demonstrably not true. Also, I suspect Mclean will play most matches with others fit, he just won't play the DM role.

As for 'pointing and shouting' - no-one else in our midfield is communicating or instructing and his experience means he does that role for the manager and the team. If he gives the ball away it doesn't mean you can't instruct others. There's plenty of examples of average players being very good leaders.

i doubt Mclean will play i might be wrong but there was a reason smith and webber tried to buy a whole new centre midfield this season 

And that is because  the ones here were not good enough 

Gibbs has been a Surprise this season and when fit with the small amount of games he has had so far i would pick him over Mclean in that Role 

 

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

I've just ranted about those sticking up for Kenny on another thread,mainly about his lack of screening of the defence which was his main role last night. But this is another important part of his role last night he did so badly. He should be showing for the ball and at least occupying some of the opposition when we have the ball at the back, but as usual he was completely missing in action, only getting involved when we got into trouble. If only he was more pre-emptive! We really need to ditch this square peg in a round hole as soon as possible.

I don’t mind Kenny, but he is not the player he was 3/4 years ago. It was nice to see him get an assist, but he doesn’t get many. He has about 2/3 goals in the last few years too and his tracking back last night was sluggish to say the least. 

[Gordon Bennett 780]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think its because the midfield has no shape. It seems they are allowed to go where they like and I believe we have to have at least one player holding that middle. We keep hearing that Hayden is getting fitter but we've played a fifth of the season already and there is no sign of him anytime soon. Its a worry.

Practice match being arranged for him to play in over the international break was the last we heard, and that he is running. Sounds like he's not too far away.

IF he can stay fit he is going to be a huge player for us over the remaining three quarters or so of the campaign.

[AJ 1,218]

51 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Practice match being arranged for him to play in over the international break was the last we heard, and that he is running. Sounds like he's not too far away.

IF he can stay fit he is going to be a huge player for us over the remaining three quarters or so of the campaign.

He will be our 9th tallest player, just short of Hanley and Omo!

[kingsway 94]

We aren't playing great but we've still got the quality to beat teams in this Division when it counts so all the pant wetters should relax a bit cause its still very very early and we don't want to be peaking at this stage!

[Petriix 2,834]

7 minutes ago, kingsway said:

We aren't playing great but we've still got the quality to beat teams in this Division when it counts so all the pant wetters should relax a bit cause its still very very early and we don't want to be peaking at this stage!

I think that people are going to have to adjust their expectations a little if they think this run of 6 wins in a row is us 'not playing great'. There are obviously things we can improve, but we're doing ok let's be honest! 

[Yobocop 1,094]

14 hours ago, CANARYKING said:

Yes I know we win again but we can’t keep giving the ball away, letting the opponent run with the ball without any challenge and keep pissing about in our own penalty area. Sooner or later we’re going to come up against better opposition.

Let’s hope we keep ‘getting away with it’ for the rest of the season 

[nutty nigel 7,506]

1 hour ago, Yobocop said:

Let’s hope we keep ‘getting away with it’ for the rest of the season 

I think the expectation is that we turn up every game and comfortably beat the opposition. It rarely works that way. 'Getting away with it' works for me too.

 

[Midlands Yellow 3,920]

13 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

He was pretty much 8/10 last night. What we're all those mistakes you saw?

8/10? That’s a cheeky contrived mark. 

[Gordon Bennett 780]

18 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I think the expectation is that we turn up every game and comfortably beat the opposition. It rarely works that way. 'Getting away with it' works for me too.

 

Great tune.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

50 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

8/10? That’s a cheeky contrived mark. 

It's what I saw. But apparently backed up by 8 on the Pink Un and 7.6 who scored.

What did you rate it?

[Midlands Yellow 3,920]

7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

It's what I saw. But apparently backed up by 8 on the Pink Un and 7.6 who scored.

What did you rate it?

A Len Goodman at best and that’s being very kind. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Smith just said that hopefully Hayden is back in training with the team next week.

How long that means he is away from being match fit I don't know but hopefully he can at least be an option on the bench shortly after the international break. 

[norfolkngood 1,086]

8 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

It's what I saw. But apparently backed up by 8 on the Pink Un and 7.6 who scored.

What did you rate it?

Nigel i get he was close to 8/10 against Bristol and well done Kenny thats the sort of Performance that we expect from a experienced player 

to be fair to Kenny thats not his position DM or left back and he will fill in a useful to have 

but to be the pointer the one who barks orders you have to be the standout performer weekly the benchmark for others you think kenny is that ? 

like others have said and with the transfers we have had this season mostly a new midfield 

throw in gibbs who could be the find of the season when fit 

i see kenny struggling to get in a fully fit side 

for now yes he will be in and he will put in a shift and hats off to him for a good performance more of the same please 

[Bonzo 198]

I'm not sure we "got away" with anything. 

It was certainly a finely balanced game at times but Smith was right to give Bristol City due credit for their performance and also for the way they set up.  

The benefits of their system which is 3412 but is really a variant of 343 is that they had an extra man in midfield and they made it pay. The question is how we counter this and keep our shape playing from a 4231? I don't know, but we'll get this problem again and we need to find a better solution.

Bristol used their tactical overload in midfield to great effect and were able to dominate possession centrally as soon as we started to manage the game and run the clock (seemingly from the second goal). On reflection this was a mistake. A two goal lead is usually the cue for a win or at least a draw. But managing the game so early in the contest against a side like Bristol? We need a different mentality. It seemed like we had gone into our shell. Bristol sensed this and were emboldened during the second part of the first half. The difference we need to see is a more ruthless approach to finishing off the opposition once we have gained the ascendancy especially against a bold side like Bristol who had come to play football with us. 

Bristol have goals in them, their morale is high and Smith was right to reinvigorate our approach at half time. Hernandez is more than a just a fan of one of our retail giants he's a reason why opposing defences stay home not that Cantwell was lacking any effort or application. Sara looked energetic. I thought McLean played well, so much of his work is in his positioning and off the ball.

He's not a showy player as a result many fail to see his merits, my only criticism of him is his finishing but he is savvy and he's effective in closing the passing lanes plus he knows his job in a 4231. 

It wasn't a lucky win but it was a close run thing. Bristol if anything reminded me of a Lambert run Norwich, all players willing to put a shoulder to the wheel and a side who play with the mentality of if you score 3 we'll score 4. If you were a Bristol fan what's not to like about that?

If anything Smith and his players will have learned a lot from this game. We didn't play at our best and won and yet we won because we played our 4231 and put the ball into the places where Pukki wants it. It wasn't our best performance and it was nerve wracking to watch and yet many of our lads played well with Pukki, Sargent and McLean the pick of the bunch.

It's true that we could have lost or drawn a game like this and for sure we have no right to expect to win but we did win and we deserved to. Just. 

[Capt. Pants 4,194]

McLean will be in contention to be picked like everyone else. Assuming Hayden is automatic in at DM that leaves Sara, Nunez, Gibbs, Ramsey and McLean fighting for 2 places. Then we also have Sorensen as backup for Hayden. It's a great position to be in.