Labour party protest in Liverpool

[Mr Angry 1,544]

I was walking through Liverpool city centre yesterday afternoon and I saw a stall for a protest against the Labour party-one of the posters mentioned something about Keir Starmer not representing the people who support Labour-not sure if this was anything to do with his stance on the Rail strikes? I didn't stop to look but I think the gist was about a new-or perhaps an already existing-organisation that does represent Labour supporters.

I don't know if this was a nationwide protest or just in Liverpool-Militant/the Socialist Party had a good following in Liverpool. I couldn't help thinking that if it is a nationwide thing it will split the left-wing/Labour vote which will harm the chances of beating the Conservatives at the next General Election.

I also saw another stall put up by the Revolutionary Communist Group, selling their publication "Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism!". I bought this a few times back in the early 80s and was surprised to see that it was still being published. 

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,402]

39 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

I was walking through Liverpool city centre yesterday afternoon and I saw a stall for a protest against the Labour party-one of the posters mentioned something about Keir Starmer not representing the people who support Labour-not sure if this was anything to do with his stance on the Rail strikes? I didn't stop to look but I think the gist was about a new-or perhaps an already existing-organisation that does represent Labour supporters.

I don't know if this was a nationwide protest or just in Liverpool-Militant/the Socialist Party had a good following in Liverpool. I couldn't help thinking that if it is a nationwide thing it will split the left-wing/Labour vote which will harm the chances of beating the Conservatives at the next General Election.

I also saw another stall put up by the Revolutionary Communist Group, selling their publication "Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism!". I bought this a few times back in the early 80s and was surprised to see that it was still being published. 

Labour really need to up their game, otherwise we're gonna just sleepwalk our way to another Tory government at the next election.

[Naturalcynic 627]

In most city centres, including Norwich, on a busy Saturday you will see small gatherings of members of far-left revolutionary groups, usually around trestle tables adorned with their placards and a few copies of their in-house propaganda newspaper.  Liverpool is, of course, a hotbed of such activism so given their history of booing the National Anthem it’s probably just as well that their match this weekend was cancelled.

[1902 1,167]

8 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

In most city centres, including Norwich, on a busy Saturday you will see small gatherings of members of far-left revolutionary groups, usually around trestle tables adorned with their placards and a few copies of their in-house propaganda newspaper.  Liverpool is, of course, a hotbed of such activism so given their history of booing the National Anthem it’s probably just as well that their match this weekend was cancelled.

What I find interesting about comments like this is that so many people are scandalised by people who would boo the national anthem, but don't seem to wish to ask why an area (however broad brush that statement was) have no real attachment to this countries institutions or feel cut off enough to disdain it.

[Nuff Said 5,082]

19 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Labour really need to up their game, otherwise we're gonna just sleepwalk our way to another Tory government at the next election.

They’re not going to up their vote by proposing another Corbynite manifesto, we saw what happened last time. A center-left Labour Party can win if its tactics and policies are right. It might not deliver everything those more to the left want, but 70% of something is infinitely better than 100% of nothing. To support a hard-left Labour Party is to be complicit in letting the Tories continue to drag the country down while enriching their mates.

[Naturalcynic 627]

16 minutes ago, 1902 said:

What I find interesting about comments like this is that so many people are scandalised by people who would boo the national anthem, but don't seem to wish to ask why an area (however broad brush that statement was) have no real attachment to this countries institutions or feel cut off enough to disdain it.

Well, the easy answer (and arguably the correct one) is that the population of Liverpool includes a large number of people whose lineage is linked to Irish catholicism and republicanism.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[TheGunnShow 5,909]

1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

I was walking through Liverpool city centre yesterday afternoon and I saw a stall for a protest against the Labour party-one of the posters mentioned something about Keir Starmer not representing the people who support Labour-not sure if this was anything to do with his stance on the Rail strikes? I didn't stop to look but I think the gist was about a new-or perhaps an already existing-organisation that does represent Labour supporters.

I don't know if this was a nationwide protest or just in Liverpool-Militant/the Socialist Party had a good following in Liverpool. I couldn't help thinking that if it is a nationwide thing it will split the left-wing/Labour vote which will harm the chances of beating the Conservatives at the next General Election.

I also saw another stall put up by the Revolutionary Communist Group, selling their publication "Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism!". I bought this a few times back in the early 80s and was surprised to see that it was still being published. 

Considering that Liverpool was a hotbed of the old Militant tendency that Kinnock pushed back and I don't get the impression that too much has changed regarding their political persuasions. They've always had the right idea re. the Sun newspaper - don't buy it. I don't really see how they're representative though. Liverpool Riverside is a textbook safe seat. Liverpool Walton is the safest Labour seat in the UK or thereabouts. Wavertree was won with over 70% of the vote, as was West Derby.

As this link shows, of all seats on Merseyside, only one was blue in the last election, namely Southport.

List of parliamentary constituencies in Merseyside - Wikipedia

[A Load of Squit 5,112]

The first time I walked down Las Ramblas in Barcelona I noticed there was a stall for the Fascist Party of Catalonia and on the other side of the walkway was a stall for the Communist Party of Catalonia, as I was walking towards the harbour the Fascists were on the right and the Communists were on the left.

 

[Naturalcynic 627]

29 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

The first time I walked down Las Ramblas in Barcelona I noticed there was a stall for the Fascist Party of Catalonia and on the other side of the walkway was a stall for the Communist Party of Catalonia, as I was walking towards the harbour the Fascists were on the right and the Communists were on the left.

 

Although if you were walking the other way the fascists would have been on the left and the communists on the right, which actually fits with many people’s opinions that in reality there’s little difference between the two.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[1902 1,167]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

Well, the easy answer (and arguably the correct one) is that the population of Liverpool includes a large number of people whose lineage is linked to Irish catholicism and republicanism.

It's easy, but it doesn't really explain it because it assumes that having certain lineage (often from the 19th century) would continue to impact identity to such an extent today.

[1902 1,167]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

Although if you were walking the other way the fascists would have been on the left and the communists on the right, which actually fits with many people’s opinions that in reality there’s little difference between the two.

Interestingly, Ukraine seems to have really brought those two camps together. 

[Rock The Boat 1,323]

9 hours ago, 1902 said:

It's easy, but it doesn't really explain it because it assumes that having certain lineage (often from the 19th century) would continue to impact identity to such an extent today.

Class doesn't define it either as there is a very strong core support for the Monarchy in the working class up and down the country.

[Herman 9,699]

5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Class doesn't define it either as there is a very strong core support for the Monarchy in the working class up and down the country.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,503]

18 hours ago, 1902 said:

What I find interesting about comments like this is that so many people are scandalised by people who would boo the national anthem, but don't seem to wish to ask why an area (however broad brush that statement was) have no real attachment to this countries institutions or feel cut off enough to disdain it.

What I find interesting about comments like this is that if Labour supporters took a similar approach with Conservative voters, Labour might possibly win more elections. 

[Yellow Fever 3,733]

If you care to look there are left and right splinter groups in all cities. Sometimes we only see the ones we have issues with.

I laugh as in my offices in the centre of Norwich we occasionally get the junk 'The Light' publication pushed through the door. Don't bother - its junk and is treated as such.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,503]

18 hours ago, 1902 said:

It's easy, but it doesn't really explain it because it assumes that having certain lineage (often from the 19th century) would continue to impact identity to such an extent today.

It goes a long way to explain it, much as the movement of protestants into Northern Ireland explains the fact that there's still division over the reunification of Ireland within Northern Ireland and there are conflicting loyalties among the population of Eastern Ukraine between Ukraine and Russia, albeit less so now Russia has done so much to alienate people there.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It goes a long way to explain it, much as the movement of protestants into Northern Ireland explains the fact that there's still division over the reunification of Ireland within Northern Ireland and there are conflicting loyalties among the population of Eastern Ukraine between Ukraine and Russia, albeit less so now Russia has done so much to alienate people there.

I would assume that, certainly historically, so many people in NI were/are not given a choice. I shudder to think what it would be like living in Cornwall if the indigenous population despised us "upcountry" folks and made our lives unbearable.

A friend of ours, sadly no longer with us, grew up during the troubles and said he thinks his childhood was nothing more than standing at checkpoints with his arms out wide.

Living in fear must alter your outlook on every sphere of life.

[Well b back 3,180]

As a lifelong Tory voter, like many up North I have spent time protesting against Boris Johnson. 

[Mr Angry 1,544]

On 11/09/2022 at 13:24, TheGunnShow said:

Considering that Liverpool was a hotbed of the old Militant tendency that Kinnock pushed back and I don't get the impression that too much has changed regarding their political persuasions. They've always had the right idea re. the Sun newspaper - don't buy it. I don't really see how they're representative though. Liverpool Riverside is a textbook safe seat. Liverpool Walton is the safest Labour seat in the UK or thereabouts. Wavertree was won with over 70% of the vote, as was West Derby.

As this link shows, of all seats on Merseyside, only one was blue in the last election, namely Southport.

List of parliamentary constituencies in Merseyside - Wikipedia

Coincidentally someone from Southport was at our house yesterday-when I mentioned this to him he said it was because people in Southport had money.

[1902 1,167]

9 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What I find interesting about comments like this is that if Labour supporters took a similar approach with Conservative voters, Labour might possibly win more elections. 

I'm not quite sure why that is relevant?

[1902 1,167]

7 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It goes a long way to explain it, much as the movement of protestants into Northern Ireland explains the fact that there's still division over the reunification of Ireland within Northern Ireland and there are conflicting loyalties among the population of Eastern Ukraine between Ukraine and Russia, albeit less so now Russia has done so much to alienate people there.

Russia and Ukraine were part of one United state until 1991. Northern Ireland had sporadic waves of violence on a thirty year cycle until 1997. In one example, there was a linguistic battle and in the other outright discrimination against a religious minority by nearly every power structure. Compared to people of Irish descent in Liverpool, they aren't really comparable.

I'm prepared to bet that most Liverpudlians  identify as English, not Irish. Many of them, especially of a younger generation will not have religious views. So why are those views still held? Why not in the London dockyard areas which also had massive Irish immigration. It's not like Millwall fans are famous for booing the national anthem. 

It's pretty easy to suggest that it's an identity issue, but it's a bit harder to explain how a local identity of opposition to institutions is persisting in one area, for so long and not in others. The only other example I can think of is Glasgow which has similar histories of immigration and a similar socioeconomic profile.

[Naturalcynic 627]

6 minutes ago, 1902 said:

I'm not quite sure why that is relevant?

I think the point is that perhaps Labour and their supporters might do rather better if they tried to understand why people in some areas vote Conservative rather than just shouting abuse at them and labelling them Tory scum.

[1902 1,167]

1 minute ago, Naturalcynic said:

I think the point is that perhaps Labour and their supporters might do rather better if they tried to understand why people in some areas vote Conservative rather than just shouting abuse at them and labelling them Tory scum.

I'm not shouting Tory scum and you didn't mention anyone doing it previously. It's just whatabouttery.

[Naturalcynic 627]

3 minutes ago, 1902 said:

I'm not shouting Tory scum and you didn't mention anyone doing it previously. It's just whatabouttery.

No it’s not.  You asked the relevance of a previous comment by lyb and I explained it.

[1902 1,167]

25 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

No it’s not.  You asked the relevance of a previous comment by lyb and I explained it.

Ok, well its relevance is lost on me regardless NC, but fair enough.

[Herman 9,699]

44 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I think the point is that perhaps Labour and their supporters might do rather better if they tried to understand why people in some areas vote Conservative rather than just shouting abuse at them and labelling them Tory scum.

No, what I think he meant was that as much as the tories hate each other they tend to unite around election time. They know that if they are to achieve anything they have to be in power. Labour tend to spend most of their time fighting amongst themselves which is not appealing to the voters. Until they learn to shelve their differences for a while, at least until after an election, they will keep handing the country over to the tories. (Or tory scum as I like to call them.😉)

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

49 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I think the point is that perhaps Labour and their supporters might do rather better if they tried to understand why people in some areas vote Conservative rather than just shouting abuse at them and labelling them Tory scum.

Can't say I've heard Tory voters labelled as Tory scum - ever.

What I'm sure we have all heard is certain Tory politicians labelled as 'scum' for the very clear and obvious reason that their behaviour was sufficiently disgusting to deserve being called that.

And on that point it was far from just Labour supporters who were of that opinion - I'm not sure if the news has reached you yet but the UK is now longer a two party state, although I suppose you could be forgiven for thinking it was given that our electoral system is heavily rigged in favour of keeping it that way.

[TheGunnShow 5,909]

3 hours ago, Mr Angry said:

Coincidentally someone from Southport was at our house yesterday-when I mentioned this to him he said it was because people in Southport had money.

Southport was a LibDem seat for a long time before the Tories turned it over. Never been a Labour seat though. Still not the prettiest of town centres (looks rather run down in places compared to some northern towns that are very much Tory strongholds, like Knutsford, although that's part of Tatton constituency nowadays), but you have got some cracking golfing country going south.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,503]

1 hour ago, 1902 said:

Russia and Ukraine were part of one United state until 1991. Northern Ireland had sporadic waves of violence on a thirty year cycle until 1997. In one example, there was a linguistic battle and in the other outright discrimination against a religious minority by nearly every power structure. Compared to people of Irish descent in Liverpool, they aren't really comparable.

I'm prepared to bet that most Liverpudlians  identify as English, not Irish. Many of them, especially of a younger generation will not have religious views. So why are those views still held? Why not in the London dockyard areas which also had massive Irish immigration. It's not like Millwall fans are famous for booing the national anthem. 

It's pretty easy to suggest that it's an identity issue, but it's a bit harder to explain how a local identity of opposition to institutions is persisting in one area, for so long and not in others. The only other example I can think of is Glasgow which has similar histories of immigration and a similar socioeconomic profile.

You say that, but then again, Celtic and Rangers... and bombs can be an issue there from time to time as well. 

Edit: Actually, you kind of touched on it at the end there, but I do think this is where the crossover in different elements of identity can muddy the water. If you have a persistent Northern Irish catholic element dripping an anti-government, as an institution as opposed to just political parties, sentiment into an area then it will have an impact. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,503]

58 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Can't say I've heard Tory voters labelled as Tory scum - ever.

What I'm sure we have all heard is certain Tory politicians labelled as 'scum' for the very clear and obvious reason that their behaviour was sufficiently disgusting to deserve being called that.

And on that point it was far from just Labour supporters who were of that opinion - I'm not sure if the news has reached you yet but the UK is now longer a two party state, although I suppose you could be forgiven for thinking it was given that our electoral system is heavily rigged in favour of keeping it that way.

You say clear and obvious reasons, but that's only to you according to your own personal values. Ultimately, the reason they're actually succeeding as a politician is because other people are looking at them and not coming to the same conclusion as you. 

The next step from that is labelling that person as scum is attacking something someone else values, as opposed to dismantling the arguments they make, which is undermining why someone might value that person in the first place. 

TL; DR: I don't think ad hominem attacks on politicians affect much.