Queenie

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,410]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Maybe, but does anyone know why the football authorities chose to ignore the official advice not to cancel events, whilst virtually all other sports, theatres, mass public events etc followed the advice and of course paid their respects at the start of or during the events - just as football has a very long tradition of doing?

No. It still seems like a very poor ill-thought out idea to me.

[Naturalcynic 629]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Maybe, but does anyone know why the football authorities chose to ignore the official advice not to cancel events, whilst virtually all other sports, theatres, mass public events etc followed the advice and of course paid their respects at the start of or during the events - just as football has a very long tradition of doing?

It’s a moot point, although I’m not sure of the nature of the respects that would be paid at Anfield or Celtic Park.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

4 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

It’s a moot point, although I’m not sure of the nature of the respects that would be paid at Anfield or Celtic Park.

Do you know, sometimes people can surprise you. But you carry on thinking the worst of them, it does seem to be pretty central to the values you project.

[Naturalcynic 629]

8 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Do you know, sometimes people can surprise you. But you carry on thinking the worst of them, it does seem to be pretty central to the values you project.

Do you deny that (some) Liverpool supporters have booed the National Anthem very loudly at numerous high profile football matches?

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

Where's the problem with booing the anthem? If you don't agree with what it stands for, why wouldn't you boo it?

[Naturalcynic 629]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Where's the problem with booing the anthem? If you don't agree with what it stands for, why wouldn't you boo it?

During a period of national mourning it might not be considered an appropriate thing to do, so perhaps best not to risk it.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

Meh, unless it crosses the line into actual hate speech, let 'em.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

2 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

During a period of national mourning it might not be considered an appropriate thing to do, so perhaps best not to risk it.

Fair enough if that is your opinion but clearly Buckingham Palace/the Government thought it was best to risk it otherwise they wouldn't have issued the advice/request not to cancel events .

Perhaps they have a little more faith in the people of this country than you do and/or that in 21st century neither monarchs or governments should telling people how to think or behave and that we should be taking personal responsibility for that - I seem to have been hearing quite a lot about that in recent times from our Tory government and its supporters.

 

[Naturalcynic 629]

5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Fair enough if that is your opinion but clearly Buckingham Palace/the Government thought it was best to risk it otherwise they wouldn't have issued the advice/request not to cancel events .

Perhaps they have a little more faith in the people of this country than you do and/or that in 21st century neither monarchs or governments should telling people how to think or behave and that we should be taking personal responsibility for that - I seem to have been hearing quite a lot about that in recent times from our Tory government and its supporters.

 

As you rightly suggest, although then seemingly contradict in your final sentence, the Government gave no direction to cancel events. It was the FA and Premier League that took the decision.  Whether or not the likely reaction at Anfield was in their minds, who knows, but perhaps it was the right decision.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

As you rightly suggest, although then seemingly contradict in your final sentence, the Government gave no direction to cancel events. It was the FA and Premier League that took the decision.  Whether or not the likely reaction at Anfield was in their minds, who knows, but perhaps it was the right decision.

I very much doubt they thought anybody anywhere would boo and surely anyway that wasn't a consideration.

What it seems to me was an OTT early reaction to cancel all weekend events which almost no other sport or venue thought was needed.

I would concede the Friday night loss of matches was warranted.

The day for national mourning and respect when most businesses will close will be Monday the 19th. 

 

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

He doesn't help himself does he. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

5 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Do you know, sometimes people can surprise you. But you carry on thinking the worst of them, it does seem to be pretty central to the values you project.

It's not thinking of the worst of them when they already have a track record of booing the national anthem on a regular basis. 

Rugby crowds, runners, people at horse racing events can pretty much universally be trusted to behave decently and respectfully; a lot of football fans can't. Whether its booing the anthem, booing opposing teams in the World Cup we hosted, booing their own team in protest against gestures against racism, many football fans in the UK just can't bring themselves to behave with decorum in any circumstances. 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Nuff Said 5,092]

6 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Do you deny that (some) Liverpool supporters have booed the National Anthem very loudly at numerous high profile football matches?

I don’t know, I wasn’t aware of it, although if true it would bother me a lot less than it seems to bother you. Why you seem intent on pinning this behaviour on Liverpool fans in particular I don’t know, all football teams have idiots in their crowds. Although I suspect it probably has something to do with the area’s strong left-wing traditions and/or Irish links. I also don’t understand why you’re convinced it would have happened this time. As I said, you seem determined to see the worst in people.

 

There’s a saying about Conservatives knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing. The price of living in a liberal, democratic state is that there may and can be public dissent. The value of allowing that public manifestation of dissent is being able to live in a (relatively) free society.

[Naturalcynic 629]

53 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I don’t know, I wasn’t aware of it, although if true it would bother me a lot less than it seems to bother you. Why you seem intent on pinning this behaviour on Liverpool fans in particular I don’t know, all football teams have idiots in their crowds. Although I suspect it probably has something to do with the area’s strong left-wing traditions and/or Irish links. I also don’t understand why you’re convinced it would have happened this time. As I said, you seem determined to see the worst in people.

 

There’s a saying about Conservatives knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing. The price of living in a liberal, democratic state is that there may and can be public dissent. The value of allowing that public manifestation of dissent is being able to live in a (relatively) free society.

Very surprised you were unaware of it considering how many times it’s happened. Anyway, as I said in an earlier post, during a period of national mourning it might not be considered an appropriate thing to do or in the best of taste so perhaps it’s good that the opportunity didn’t present itself.

 

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

11 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Where's the problem with booing the anthem? If you don't agree with what it stands for, why wouldn't you boo it?

Is it ok to boo footballers taking the knee if one doesn't agree with what it stands for? I think we had a thread on this subject a while back and most thought it not ok to boo.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

4 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

There’s a saying about Conservatives knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing. The price of living in a liberal, democratic state is that there may and can be public dissent. The value of allowing that public manifestation of dissent is being able to live in a (relatively) free society.

Small correction - it was Oscar Wilde who said the cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.  

While you are unarguably correct in your statement on living in a democratic society, there is also the not so small matter of crying 'Fire' in a crowded theatre - or even a Covid-socially-distanced one.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Is it ok to boo footballers taking the knee if one doesn't agree with what it stands for? I think we had a thread on this subject a while back and most thought it not ok to boo.

Firstly, how are they even equivalent? Secondly, wasn't that more that people thought they were silly to boo, not that they couldn't do it?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

20 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Where's the problem with booing the anthem? If you don't agree with what it stands for, why wouldn't you boo it?

Surely your silence during it is a protest. If I go to a funeral, and at my age its not uncommon, I do not sing any hymns nor say prayers. It would be hypocritical of me as an atheist to do so. But I don't boo during the singing of them.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Small correction - it was Oscar Wilde who said the cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.  

While you are unarguably correct in your statement on living in a democratic society, there is also the not so small matter of crying 'Fire' in a crowded theatre - or even a Covid-socially-distanced one.

Thank you for the correction, interesting, although I will carry on saying “they” say conservatives know etc. 😉

I completely agree that free speech doesn’t equal the right to say anything you like, hence the idea of hate speech.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Surely your silence during it is a protest. If I go to a funeral, and at my age its not uncommon, I do not sing any hymns nor say prayers. It would be hypocritical of me as an atheist to do so. But I don't boo during the singing of them.

Is it really a protest if only a very few can actually see or hear it? I'd say that's more a form of silent resistance rather than protest.

[sonyc 5,492]

Two recent posts on Liverpool, one direct and one with a switched focus onto it. Lazy and poor characterisations of a whole city and everyone living there by association? An example of Labelling theory if ever there was one? Narrow-minded? Or none of these but posts from people who have an inside track on the psychology and history of the place? People who have ancestry there? People who have studied there and lived there for many years understanding the communities?

You choose I guess. I get dismayed at how some people's attitudes are formed, narrowly focussing on one aspect and ignoring anything else. Blind as it were. Bradford gets a bad press too. I've lived here for 40 plus years and don't pretend I know everything. But I know some things after all that time. There's a lot wrong. A lot of social problems and cultural challenges. I've worked for over 40 years too in service related occupations, the kind that get you close to understanding a culture, what people think. But read the occasional tabloid and you're not far away from a stereotype. Yet, there are great things about its people and the place.

It's cheap to label things, cities, people. Life is far more complex. To actually think Liverpool fans might boo the national album in the week of the Queen dying? Really? Would they? To actually think that and believe that as a basis for a world view? To use that belief and then amplify that belief on what might happen? To think that there are no royalists in Liverpool? To think that if a stupid few did boo that other Liverpool families wouldn't be outraged and ashamed?

This is the kind of thinking that divides people. As Keelansgrandad intimates, silence is often very useful. Interesting that silent is an anagram of listen. Maybe people need to do more of both... instead of cheap characterisations on things they probably don't know very about in much depth. It's like Bradford being the butt of music hall jokes. Or cheap jibes about the French and frogs. Or Norfolk/ Suffolk inbreds And so on.

I have no affiliation whatsoever to Liverpool. It's a city with an interesting history . Cities are complex places and we can't begin to know about places until we spent a long time living or studying in them. We ought to enquire and be more curious about why some things happen - instead of being so judgemental. Just my take.

Sorry if this is long and a rant. I really dislike labelling of any kind. I don't think it adds to understanding of much but closes off a debate or an argument. It doesn't help people work out any differences they have or why. 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by sonyc

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

45 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Or Norfolk/ Suffolk inbreds And so on.

Cheers Sonyc. Couldn't agree more. And yes I have 6 fingers and webbed toes coming from N.Norfolk for as long back as record exist.

[Naturalcynic 629]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Two recent posts on Liverpool, one direct and one with a switched focus onto it. Lazy and poor characterisations of a whole city and everyone living there by association? An example of Labelling theory if ever there was one? Narrow-minded? Or none of these but posts from people who have an inside track on the psychology and history of the place? People who have ancestry there? People who have studied there and lived there for many years understanding the communities?

You choose I guess. I get dismayed at how some people's attitudes are formed, narrowly focussing on one aspect and ignoring anything else. Blind as it were. Bradford gets a bad press too. I've lived here for 40 plus years and don't pretend I know everything. But I know some things after all that time. There's a lot wrong. A lot of social problems and cultural challenges. I've worked for over 40 years too in service related occupations, the kind that get you close to understanding a culture, what people think. But read the occasional tabloid and you're not far away from a stereotype. Yet, there are great things about its people and the place.

It's cheap to label things, cities, people. Life is far more complex. To actually think Liverpool fans might boo the national album in the week of the Queen dying? Really? Would they? To actually think that and believe that as a basis for a world view? To use that belief and then amplify that belief on what might happen? To think that there are no royalists in Liverpool? To think that if a stupid few did boo that other Liverpool families wouldn't be outraged and ashamed?

This is the kind of thinking that divides people. As Keelansgrandad intimates, silence is often very useful. Interesting that silent is an anagram of listen. Maybe people need to do more of both... instead of cheap characterisations on things they probably don't know very about in much depth. It's like Bradford being the butt of music hall jokes. Or cheap jibes about the French and frogs. Or Norfolk/ Suffolk inbreds And so on.

I have no affiliation whatsoever to Liverpool. It's a city with an interesting history . Cities are complex places and we can't begin to know about places until we spent a long time living or studying in them. We ought to enquire and be more curious about why some things happen - instead of being so judgemental. Just my take.

Sorry if this is long and a rant. I really dislike labelling of any kind. I don't think it adds to understanding of much but closes off a debate or an argument. It doesn't help people work out any differences they have or why. 

 

What you say is all very laudable but with regards booing the National Anthem a significant number of Liverpool supporters “have previous” on several high profile occasions in recent years and it’s arguably a little naïve to think that they wouldn’t do it again.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Cheers Sonyc. Couldn't agree more. And yes I have 6 fingers and webbed toes coming from N.Norfolk for as long back as record exist.

No shame in that. A lot of Olympic swimmers  probably wish they'd been born with webbed feet. 

[Naturalcynic 629]

4 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Firstly, how are they even equivalent? Secondly, wasn't that more that people thought they were silly to boo, not that they couldn't do it?

I recall that there were some on here who felt that anyone booing the knee should be ejected from the ground and banned.  I wonder if these are the same people who now think it’s ok to boo the National Anthem.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

16 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

What you say is all very laudable but with regards booing the National Anthem a significant number of Liverpool supporters “have previous” on several high profile occasions in recent years and it’s arguably a little naïve to think that they wouldn’t do it again.

If we expand on this argument - obviously Liverpool fans (or the club) should then be banned from all events where the National Anthem might ring out - Wembley, FA cup and so on.

Its obviously an absurd argument. Some may well 'boo' but so what - it only shows them up as small minded as those that would equally ban them. I'm sure the vast majority, if not all, would applaud the Queen as a job and life well lived and done - whether you agree with the Monarchy in principal or not. No different to Michelle O'Neill giving very statesmanlike condolences to the Queen and her family. 

[sonyc 5,492]

32 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

What you say is all very laudable but with regards booing the National Anthem a significant number of Liverpool supporters “have previous” on several high profile occasions in recent years and it’s arguably a little naïve to think that they wouldn’t do it again.

Thanks for patronising me and  for the "laudable but".

Maybe some supporters do "have previous" but why extrapolate this into a generalised comment on Liverpool on a thread about the Queen?

We need to reflect a bit more before saying stuff. I fail at times for sure.

And as someone who stated before about your time of service to Her Majesty why not take some of her wise words into consideration ..... "we all need to get the balance right between action and reflection. With so many distractions it is easy to pause and take stock". In other words, think before you speak I believe she is meaning. We can so easily be quick to judge. That was my point (in my admittedly long post).

 

[Naturalcynic 629]

10 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Thanks for patronising me and  for the "laudable but".

Maybe some supporters do "have previous" but why extrapolate this into a generalised comment on Liverpool on a thread about the Queen?

We need to reflect a bit more before saying stuff. I fail at times for sure.

And as someone who stated before about your time of service to Her Majesty why not take some of her wise words into consideration ..... "we all need to get the balance right between action and reflection. With so many distractions it is easy to pause and take stock". In other words, think before you speak I believe she is meaning. We can so easily be quick to judge. That was my point (in my admittedly long post).

 

It hasn’t been extrapolated into a generalised comment about Liverpool; that’s a different thread where the subject of the city being a hotbed of protest was raised.  Someone earlier asked why football had been cancelled and I suggested that an unintended yet positive consequence of that cancellation was that booing or other anti-establishment gestures that might well have been made at grounds such as Anfield and Celtic Park would now not occur.

[KernowCanary 214]

That reporter with his cameraman asking a Brummie lady what her daughter put in her sandwiches this morning during the queuing, saying it’s “essential information”….. is this how low we’ve stooped as a country when it comes to reporting?. I’ve always hated it when a reporter goes out stuffing a microphone in people’s faces for a chat, it’s even more annoying than the grid-walks before F1 races, but that was the lowest of the low.

I hope people are there to pay their respects. During that so-called “report”, there were people smiling and waving to the camera, obviously excited to see the coffin and say “I’ve been there”, which isn’t paying respects.

On an unrelated note, I’m surprised nobody has wheeled out the “Brits love queuing” stereotype.

Edited September 15, 2022 by KernowCanary

[Herman 9,717]

Tone deaf as per usual.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/mps-and-four-guests-jump-the-queue-to-see-queen/