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3 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

I know. Although we are just after the biggest PR campaign the media have ever put on promoting the monarchy. If that poll is ran again (and worded differently) in 18 months time, I'm pretty sure it'd look vastly different.

The monarchy promotes the country.

Name any event outside of a major global summit where you can get a large chunk of world leaders to turn up, most of them sharing a bus.

Wanting rid of the monarchy, given the value it is to marketing the UK and to diplomacy, is just plain retarded.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Wanting rid of the monarchy, given the value it is to marketing the UK and to diplomacy, is just plain retarded.

 

 

I think it is the value it is, or perhaps more accurately it isn't, to democracy that many of us are more concerned with, and in any case you are seriously over-stating the monarchy's value in marketing the UK and to diplomacy, which is marginal at best.

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2 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think it is the value it is, or perhaps more accurately it isn't, to democracy that many of us are more concerned with, and in any case you are seriously over-stating the monarchy's value in marketing the UK and to diplomacy, which is marginal at best.

It's irrelevant in terms of democracy; it's value is diplomacy and marketing. It literally does no harm at all. 

The idea it's of only 'marginal value', when this funeral has just broken records for global viewing, is utterly laughable. 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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34 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Boo hoo.

Is that the best you can come up with given those concerns?

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30 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The monarchy promotes the country.

Name any event outside of a major global summit where you can get a large chunk of world leaders to turn up, most of them sharing a bus.

Wanting rid of the monarchy, given the value it is to marketing the UK and to diplomacy, is just plain retarded.

 

 

The money you save from funding them could be put to better uses - throw them out and put the buildings (that people come to see) to better use such as housing the homeless, refugees etc.

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Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's the best I could be bothered to come up with in response to your boring diatribe. 

Yawn.

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2 minutes ago, Canary73 said:

The money you save from funding them could be put to better uses - throw them out and put the buildings (that people come to see) to better use such as housing the homeless, refugees etc.

You don't save any money from it. I've highlighted your lie about this before. The proceeds of the Crown Estate fund the monarchy, which was originally the personal property of the monarch until George III entered into agreement to give the proceeds to the state with some handed back to fund the public functions of the monarchy.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

You don't save any money from it. I've highlighted your lie about this before. The Crown Estate funds the monarchy, which was originally the personal property of the monarch until George III entered into agreement to give the proceeds to the state with some handed back to fund the public functions of the monarchy.

Twaddle

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13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's irrelevant in terms of democracy; it's value is diplomacy and marketing. It literally does no harm at all. 

That may be your opinion, and fair enough, I think that the polling evidence shows that it is still (just) a majority opinion.

But despite the finality of your assertion, it is no more than an opinion and it is equally clear that a significant and growing proportion of people hold a completely different opinion.

Whilst the change may be quite slow the long term trend is such that it is almost inevitable that your opinion will become a minority opinion in the foreseeable future, and that will ultimately mean change..

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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It's not merely opinion, it's fact that it does no harm at all other than offend the sensibilities of a minority of zealots. Like I said, nothing else outside of a major global summit attracts this many world leaders, let alone sharing a bus. Reach like that is priceless. You might get your way one day, and maybe before you die you'll realise, much like those who voted for Brexit, how foolish you all were to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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54 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The monarchy promotes the country.

Name any event outside of a major global summit where you can get a large chunk of world leaders to turn up, most of them sharing a bus.

Wanting rid of the monarchy, given the value it is to marketing the UK and to diplomacy, is just plain retarded.

 

 

Nonsense. France has had greater investment than us by a distance over the last 3 years. Germany has for ages and ages. There are other examples. None of our success or failure is to do with the monarchy, to think anything else is just plain retarded.

Having people turn up for a ceremony is not a reason to keep it.

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25 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That may be your opinion, and fair enough, I think that the polling evidence shows that it is still (just) a majority opinion.

But despite the finality of your assertion, it is no more than an opinion and it is equally clear that a significant and growing proportion of people hold a completely different opinion.

Whilst the change may be quite slow the long term trend is such that it is almost inevitable that your opinion will become a minority opinion in the foreseeable future, and that will ultimately mean change..

I wonder whether in general the older people become, the more they like the monarchy? So perhaps that group of youngsters won’t be so anti in 40 years time?

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1 minute ago, Mr Angry said:

I wonder whether in general the older people become, the more they like the monarchy? So perhaps that group of youngsters won’t be so anti in 40 years time?

I think currently the older population identified more with the older Queen. They had (or believed) experiences in common. Charles being 73 will still appeal to the boomers.

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19 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Nonsense. France has had greater investment than us by a distance over the last 3 years. Germany has for ages and ages. There are other examples. None of our success or failure is to do with the monarchy, to think anything else is just plain retarded.

Having people turn up for a ceremony is not a reason to keep it.

Most of what's wrong with the UK is down to the decision-making of democratically elected governments; not the monarchy.

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7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Most of what's wrong with the UK is down to the decision-making of democratically elected governments; not the monarchy.

Agreed.

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47 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Most of what's wrong with the UK is down to the decision-making of democratically elected governments; not the monarchy.

We don't have democratically elected governments in the UK so you're well wide of the mark there, I'm afraid.

Perhaps if we reworked your statement to 'most of what's wrong with the UK is down to not having a democratic way of electing governments' then you'd be much closer to the mark.

As for the monarchy they aren't our major problem, and it is perfectly possible to envisage them playing a positive role in a modern democratic constitutional model as is the case in a number of other European countries but unfortunately that is miles away from the dysfunctional and undemocratic unwritten constitution & electoral system which we have and to which our monarchy is intrinsically linked.

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The monarchy..the Queen …. maybe  in the the future the King… is an asset to the UK. Adds another dimension to the UK’s position on the International stage, and we need all the help we can get!

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6 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

We don't have democratically elected governments in the UK so you're well wide of the mark there, I'm afraid.

Perhaps if we reworked your statement to 'most of what's wrong with the UK is down to not having a democratic way of electing governments' then you'd be much closer to the mark.

As for the monarchy they aren't our major problem, and it is perfectly possible to envisage them playing a positive role in a modern democratic constitutional model as is the case in a number of other European countries but unfortunately that is miles away from the dysfunctional and undemocratic unwritten constitution & electoral system which we have and to which our monarchy is intrinsically linked.

I seem to remember a referendum on bringing in something closer to PR (alternative vote) but it was comprehensively rejected by the electorate.

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That may be your opinion, and fair enough, I think that the polling evidence shows that it is still (just) a majority opinion.

But despite the finality of your assertion, it is no more than an opinion and it is equally clear that a significant and growing proportion of people hold a completely different opinion.

Whilst the change may be quite slow the long term trend is such that it is almost inevitable that your opinion will become a minority opinion in the foreseeable future, and that will ultimately mean change..

You’re overlooking the evidence that as people get older they tend to become more conservative and less reactionary.  Rather than seeing the world with the idealistic certainty that they did when younger, they gradually see that things are far more nuanced and realise that rather than being black or white, most things are shades of grey.  Consequently your assertion that all it requires is for the older generation to die off for change to happen is undermined by the fact that there is always a new older generation to take over.

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21 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

We don't have democratically elected governments in the UK so you're well wide of the mark there, I'm afraid.

Perhaps if we reworked your statement to 'most of what's wrong with the UK is down to not having a democratic way of electing governments' then you'd be much closer to the mark.

As for the monarchy they aren't our major problem, and it is perfectly possible to envisage them playing a positive role in a modern democratic constitutional model as is the case in a number of other European countries but unfortunately that is miles away from the dysfunctional and undemocratic unwritten constitution & electoral system which we have and to which our monarchy is intrinsically linked.

We have a democratic system. I agree it's flawed, 'we don't have democratically elected governments in the UK' is not only purely your opinion, it's an incorrect one, and a stupid one.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

I wonder whether in general the older people become, the more they like the monarchy? So perhaps that group of youngsters won’t be so anti in 40 years time?

Whilst that is clearly possible I think it is rather unlikely, it seems to me that it is a very generational thing - my parents' generation who lived through\fought in the war were almost entirely strong monarchists for very obvious reasons and felt they had a close, almost personal connection to the monarch.

I was certainly brought up to respect the monarch, which I still do to fair degree at least as individuals who are doing their duty as they see it as opposed to the institution itself. But I have never had a great interest in the monarchy or felt that they have any relevance to me and as I've aged I've increasingly felt that they were a (small) part of a very longstanding much bigger problem around the way this country has been governed.

My childrens 'generation broadly seem to view the monarchy as a total anachronism which should be dispensed with. There are exceptions of course, but a large majority seem to sit somewhere in the range between total apathy and positive antagonism towards the monarchy.

With the passing of a Queen  who as well as her longevity was very widely liked and admired, its hard to see anything that will reverse those generation trends.

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1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

I seem to remember a referendum on bringing in something closer to PR (alternative vote) but it was comprehensively rejected by the electorate.

I remember that too but to call it 'closer to PR' is a bit of a stretch and certainly very few considered it to be any worthwhile improvement. In fact only a minority (42%?) considered it worthwhile to even vote, so about the same as a local authority election.

It was designed by the Government to be uninteresting in the hope that they could put genuine reform on the back-burner for another  generation and so far they've succeeded. But I'm not sure they will be able to hold that line for too much longer, just as they're not going to be able to hold the line over another Scottish referendum for much longer either.

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1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

We have a democratic system. I agree it's flawed, 'we don't have democratically elected governments in the UK' is not only purely your opinion, it's an incorrect one, and a stupid one.

Oh really, that seems to be becoming a stock retort to anyone who disagrees with your own immaculate and unswerving prejudices, sorry opinions, and frankly it is both boring and totally unconvincing

There are countries all over the world that claim to have a democratic system just as we do, in fact there are very few indeed who don't officially claim to be democracies. But that doesn't mean they are normally described or recognised as democratic by other governments because the flaws in their systems are so severe that they don't in practice deliver results/governments which have any genuine democratic legitimacy - I'm sure you can think of several straight off the top of your head.

But how severe those flaws have to be before a democracy is no longer a democracy is a pretty subjective judgement and in the case of most western countries it revolves far more around whether other countries are allies or hostile rather than anything to do with the quality of their democracy.

So fine, if you are content that our flawed democratic system is nevertheless still producing democratically elected governments, that is your prerogative - clearly you have some fairly low standards in that regard which our shabby, crumbling system is still meeting.

But the fact remains that many of us have much higher standards and don't consider the current shambles in any sense acceptable.  As ever time will tell but I'm faintly optimistic that the UK will eventually (and hopefully in my lifetime) make the transition from an 18th century democracy to a 21st century one.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think currently the older population identified more with the older Queen. They had (or believed) experiences in common. Charles being 73 will still appeal to the boomers.

In 1981 (Charles and Diana’s wedding) I was a 17 year old, furiously writing lyrics to anti-monarchy songs (that fortunately were never seen by anyone). 41 years later, I think that William and Harry are ok. Time mellows some things, or maybe that’s just me.

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