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Sooty57

Did Billy buy a return ticket?

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After many offered the opinion that Billy Gilmour's move to Brighton would benefit him by working with Graham Potter, it is ironic that Potter looks like he's going the other way.

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Maybe Potter knew what was coming and signed him so he wasn't on Chelsea's books anymore. Football genius

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9 minutes ago, OnDaBall said:

Maybe Potter knew what was coming and signed him so he wasn't on Chelsea's books anymore. Football genius

And added 10 million to his new clubs kitty. Bit like on the old Champ Managers when you'd create a new manager, take over Man Utd and make them buy Shaun Carey for £5 million before retiring.

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9 hours ago, Sooty57 said:

potter_gilmour.thumb.jpg.0b0d915ed8a68f081194336e69dc6274.jpg

No way will Chelsea go for Potter

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Chelsea will have sounded out Potter via his agent before sacking Tuchel. This is all a bit quick and convenient.

Masterstroke by Potter re Gilmour.

 

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34 minutes ago, daly said:

No way will Chelsea go for Potter

Obviously the Chelsea Board didn't consult you first 😉

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27 minutes ago, Sooty57 said:

Obviously the Chelsea Board didn't consult you first 😉

No pity they didn’t 

12 months max and back to Championship 

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I thought there was a buy back clause, but I'm not sure.

As good as Brighton are, they could easily get relegated if they make a bad appointment. 

The obvious choice would be Knudsen from Bodø/Glimt.

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52 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

I thought there was a buy back clause, but I'm not sure.

As good as Brighton are, they could easily get relegated if they make a bad appointment. 

The obvious choice would be Knudsen from Bodø/Glimt.

I believe there is, but Chelsea don't have to exorcise it, just like Liverpool have a £40m buyback clause on Rian Brewster...

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53 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

I believe there is, but Chelsea don't have to exorcise it, just like Liverpool have a £40m buyback clause on Rian Brewster...

I'm still trying that with last season.

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13 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

I thought there was a buy back clause, but I'm not sure.

As good as Brighton are, they could easily get relegated if they make a bad appointment. 

The obvious choice would be Knudsen from Bodø/Glimt.

Oh no hes the Norwich 2023/24 target when we fire Smith

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13 hours ago, cornish sam said:

I believe there is, but Chelsea don't have to exorcise it, just like Liverpool have a £40m buyback clause on Rian Brewster...

Yeah. Probably. But £40m is the new £5m for EPL teams, so you never know. 😉

23 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Oh no hes the Norwich 2023/24 target when we fire Smith

I both understand the resentment towards Billy Gilmour and I don't.

Yes, he was built up by the media to be a hybrid of Deschamps, Pirlo and Zidane.

But shock, horror, he failed to live up to it.

A 20 year old with zero top team experience failed to live up unreasonable expectations of the English media. Who da thunk it. 😉

Also, a 20 year old with zero top top team experience was still better than your most experienced midfielders (Normann and McLean) A look at the numbers will tell you that.

That's a damning indictment on the Norwich recruitment team.

As a neutral who watched most of your EPL matches in the EPL, the narrative that Billy Gilmour was a failure is a false narrative. 

With all due respect. 😉

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47 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Yeah. Probably. But £40m is the new £5m for EPL teams, so you never know. 😉

I both understand the resentment towards Billy Gilmour and I don't.

Yes, he was built up by the media to be a hybrid of Deschamps, Pirlo and Zidane.

But shock, horror, he failed to live up to it.

A 20 year old with zero top team experience failed to live up unreasonable expectations of the English media. Who da thunk it. 😉

Also, a 20 year old with zero top top team experience was still better than your most experienced midfielders (Normann and McLean) A look at the numbers will tell you that.

That's a damning indictment on the Norwich recruitment team.

As a neutral who watched most of your EPL matches in the EPL, the narrative that Billy Gilmour was a failure is a false narrative. 

With all due respect. 😉

He doesn't deserve resentment, it's not really his fault he didn't live up to what other people made him out to be. And he did try. He didn't give up.

Equally though, I don't agree he was better than the two midfielders you mention, and he had some first team exposure at Chelsea.

I'm not sure what numbers you are looking at?

Vs Normann, Normann scored a goal unlike Billy. Normann got 2 assists, Billy got 1. Normann won more in the air. Normann made more combined tackles / interceptions and clearances and successfully dribbled with ball more than Billy.

In fact, the only thing Gilmour done better than Normann, who himself had a poor season, was pass the ball backwards a bit more.

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8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He doesn't deserve resentment, it's not really his fault he didn't live up to what other people made him out to be. And he did try. He didn't give up.

Equally though, I don't agree he was better than the two midfielders you mention, and he had some first team exposure at Chelsea.

I'm not sure what numbers you are looking at?

Vs Normann, Normann scored a goal unlike Billy. Normann got 2 assists, Billy got 1. Normann won more in the air. Normann made more combined tackles / interceptions and clearances and successfully dribbled with ball more than Billy.

In fact, the only thing Gilmour done better than Normann, who himself had a poor season, was pass the ball backwards a bit more.

He was apart of a team that got a 0-0 draw with england though, so you know, winning 🙏😂

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Yeah, I'm intrigued as to what these "numbers" are too. Having watched most of our games last season, Gilmour was comfortably our worst midfielder. Normann beats him with goals and assists, McLean scored so is at worst level with Gilmour's single assist, but arguably beats him as a goal generally trumps an assist. Gilmour's PPG was beaten in dreadfulness only by Kabak if you dismiss those who didn't start more than half a dozen games. His pass completion % was only 2 higher than McLean's, but when you consider that almost all his passes were crappy sideways or backwards ones, then 84% is pretty dreadful; at least McLean attempted occasional attacking balls, as his 3.08 Expected Assists to Billy Gilmours 1.66 will attest (Normann had 2.01).

To put it bluntly, McLean was pretty awful last season, Normann was much worse. And Gilmour was still our worse midfielder out of the three, both on the evidence of my eyes and the numbers that I can see.

So I say again, what numbers do you have @TheDarkKnight that I don't?

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21 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He doesn't deserve resentment, it's not really his fault he didn't live up to what other people made him out to be. And he did try. He didn't give up.

Equally though, I don't agree he was better than the two midfielders you mention, and he had some first team exposure at Chelsea.

I'm not sure what numbers you are looking at?

Vs Normann, Normann scored a goal unlike Billy. Normann got 2 assists, Billy got 1. Normann won more in the air. Normann made more combined tackles / interceptions and clearances and successfully dribbled with ball more than Billy.

In fact, the only thing Gilmour done better than Normann, who himself had a poor season, was pass the ball backwards a bit more.

I'll attach the seasonal EPL data at the end.

Football is a nuanced sport. Get the blend right, you'll become successful. Get the blend wrong, you'll fail miserably. 

Look at Manchester United for example. They pair McTominay up with Fred, McTominay becomes the fan whipping boy. Then Ten Had pairs McTominay up with Eriksen and all of a sudden McTominay is keeping 3 midfielders with a combined transfer fee of £143m (Casemiro, Fred and Van Der Beek) out of the team and giving MOTM displays against Liverpool and Arsenal. 

Another caveat is being coached by a manager who actually knows what he's doing.

Football is a simple game. It's so simple that it confuses most football fans.

Also, Normann is 5 years older than Gilmour. McLean is 9 years older.

Stats at the end of the EPL season:

 

Screenshot_20220820-005920_SofaScore.jpg

Screenshot_20220819-004030_SofaScore.jpg

Screenshot_20220818-010152_SofaScore.jpg

Edited by TheDarkKnight

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12 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Normann beats him with goals and assists, McLean scored so is at worst level with Gilmour's single assist, but arguably beats him as a goal generally trumps an assist. 

Yes.

Because goals and assists are the only stats that you judge midfielders.

Would Brazil have won the 94 World Cup without Dunga? Would France have won it in 98 without Deschamps?

No and no.

Dunga scored 6 goals in 91 matches for Brazil and Deschamps scored 4 goals in 103 matches for France.

According to you, those two must've been awful..

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2 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Because goals and assists are the only stats that you judge midfielders.

Did you stop reading after the first couple of sentences? What a bizarre response to a post that as well as using goals and assists, also refers to XA, PPG and pass completion %.

I know arguing that Gilmour was anything other than absolutely dire last year is a tough assignment, but let's try and avoid deliberate disingenuity and strawmen, shall we?

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

Did you stop reading after the first couple of sentences? What a bizarre response to a post that as well as using goals and assists, also refers to XA, PPG and pass completion %.

I know arguing that Gilmour was anything other than absolutely dire last year is a tough assignment, but let's try and avoid deliberate disingenuity and strawmen, shall we?

I posted the numbers.

Give them another little read. 🙂

I know. I know. It doesn't fit in with the narrative of using a 20 year old kid as your whipping boy, but do give it a read. 🙂

In the vast majority of passing and defensive numbers, Gilmour was superior to the competitors to his position in midfield. To allege differently is either telling a whopping lie or not believing unbiased statistics. 

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52 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

but when you consider that almost all his passes were crappy sideways or backwards ones

Pretty much underlines what I said about most football fans being confused by the simplicity of football. 

The aforementioned Dunga and Deschamps (Throw in Makelele and Lahm) were the masters of "crappy sideways or backwards passing".

Every successful football team requires a metronome in midfield. Pretty much why the Emgland central duo of Lampard and Gerrard failed hysterically.

Anyway, I'm done with you. I've taught you all I can. If you don't get it, it's not my fault.

 

Edited by TheDarkKnight

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8 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Pretty much underlines what I said about most football fans being confused by the simplicity of football. 

The aforementioned Dunga and Deschamps (Throw in Makelele and Lahm) were the masters of "crappy sideways or backwards passing".

Every successful football team requires a metronome in midfield. Pretty much why the Emgland central duo of Lampard and Gerrard failed hysterically.

Masters being the right word. Gilmour is as far removed from a master as anyone has is possible. Your stats are also not accurate, all three of them made errors that led to shots so why they have all been given zero or one for that I will never know. Furthermore, does that count fouls that led to shots or goalscoring chances? Because Billy Gilmour gave away the second most fouls for us last season, largely due to his inability to keep up with play or mark a player. Nothing about set pieces either, which were often inexplicably given to Gilmour to take responsibility for. In fact, I'm pretty certain his solitary assist was from a corner, so he didn't even create a goal from open play. The majority of his freekicks and corners were absolutely abject, but that's as much on Smith for persisting with him.

He could not keep up with the flow of the game, rarely tracked runners, was too often dominated by other midfielders. Rice dominating him in the Chelsea game was a real man against boy moment and hugely frustrating given Rice didn't seem capable of that in an England shirt in the previous summer.

Oh, he also couldn't shoot. 18 shots and only 3 made it to the keeper and none of which caused them to have to make a challenging save.

Can't press, can't mark, can't track a run, can't shoot, can't set up goals, woeful set piece success, but as he can hit a ball accurately 10 yards (as long as he's not pressured) backwards or sideways, he'll card some decent numbers for those suffering from cognitive dissonance to post on an internet forum. So he does have that going for him.

 

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2 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

I posted the numbers.

Give them another little read. 🙂

I know. I know. It doesn't fit in with the narrative of using a 20 year old kid as your whipping boy, but do give it a read. 🙂

In the vast majority of passing and defensive numbers, Gilmour was superior to the competitors to his position in midfield. To allege differently is either telling a whopping lie or not believing unbiased statistics. 

I see your numbers. But there's no point taking just individual stats, for example defensively you should combine tackles, interceptions and clearances. Normann was better than Gilmour in this regard, and Normann himself was terrible.

Gilmour was absolutely terrible for us, your stats back that up even if you do decide to use them individually to suggest he was better than Normann. Gilmour didn't influence a single match at Premier League level which is probably why he has gone from being the next big Chelsea star to a £9 mill Brighton punt. 

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PREMIER LEAGUE STATS

Wins: 5 (20th)
Draws: 7 (=12th)
Losses: 26 (2nd)
Goals scored: 23 (20th)
Goals conceded: 84 (1st)
Yellow cards: 55 (=16th)
Red cards: 1 (=15th)
Passes: 14,466 (16th)
Shots: 373 (20th)
Big chances missed: 27 (19th)
Saves: 142 (2nd)
Tackles: 614 (10th)
Own goals: 2 (=4th)
Hit woodwork: 9 (=16th)
Clearances: 816 (3rd)

All your fault Billy. 🙃

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22 minutes ago, Mengo said:

All your fault Billy.

I don't think anyone was saying Billy Gilmour was the only reason we went down. That would be as stupid as arguing he was anything other than useless for us last season. Your stats show that in a team of awful, Billy was able to stand out and be worse than a pretty awful average.

Edited by canarydan23

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32 minutes ago, Mengo said:

PREMIER LEAGUE STATS

Wins: 5 (20th)
Draws: 7 (=12th)
Losses: 26 (2nd)
Goals scored: 23 (20th)
Goals conceded: 84 (1st)
Yellow cards: 55 (=16th)
Red cards: 1 (=15th)
Passes: 14,466 (16th)
Shots: 373 (20th)
Big chances missed: 27 (19th)
Saves: 142 (2nd)
Tackles: 614 (10th)
Own goals: 2 (=4th)
Hit woodwork: 9 (=16th)
Clearances: 816 (3rd)

Yeah but apart from that.

Not a single position on the pitch were we any good.

You don't have a spare £200m do you so we can spare this humiliation next time?

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