Was only Bournemouth reserves..

[Petriix 2,834]

2 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

It's also totally reasonable to put FAR FAR more emphasis on the league games when we actually play our preferred 11 and try and get the results we need to reach our ultimate goal for the season. But funnily enough, the majority of posters on this thread didn't give Smith any credit for the wins this past week, or the clear vision and identity that is apparent, the identity that, incredibly, some are still insistent is missing 🤣 they also don't praise the recruitment this summer and how Smith has integrated new signings (not just from a different country, but a different continent) relatively quickly.

If anything goes well it's in spite of Smith. Any hint of troubles (and narrowly losing a carabao cup game playing our second string is REALLY scraping the barrel of finding something to whinge about) and Smith is a fat, tea drinking, tired old school manager with no charisma.

This forum really is pathetic at times.

What's 'pathetic' is the need to abuse other posters for daring to hold different opinions. This forum has been at its absolute best on some recent threads with the level of analysis and debate. When people are able to articulate their opposing views with intelligence and courtesy it enables a greater level of understanding.

I've seen plenty of people (myself included) giving Smith his due credit for starting to get the team playing well and dropping the underperformers.

Some of us still have (perfectly reasonable) reservations about the tactics. And those who were unhappy about Farke's sacking are entitled to make comparisons, especially when the overriding narrative was to give Smith a transfer window and see how he goes in the Championship. We're still giving him the first 10 games before making our judgement... 

[king canary 7,604]

4 minutes ago, astro said:

Williams, Tzolis, Sargent - new, that’s three, then factor in Mumba and Omo had not had much first teams experience - that’s five…….I think you’re just making excuses for a poor performance. 

Yeah I'm not though.

You specifically said players getting used to English football- so Sargent and Tzolis. Yes Williams was new. But again, you can't in good faith claim their is any equivilent between that line up (well balanced, everyone playing in their preferred position, lots of first team experience between them) and the team that played last night (no left back, no defensive midfielder, Byram and Sara both making their first starts in months). 

And just to add it wasn't that poor a performance! We were 30 seconds away from winning and then none of this childish pissing and moaning would be happening.

[astro 360]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I'm not though.

You specifically said players getting used to English football- so Sargent and Tzolis. Yes Williams was new. But again, you can't in good faith claim their is any equivilent between that line up (well balanced, everyone playing in their preferred position, lots of first team experience between them) and the team that played last night (no left back, no defensive midfielder, Byram and Sara both making their first starts in months). 

And just to add it wasn't that poor a performance! We were 30 seconds away from winning and then none of this childish pissing and moaning would be happening.

Even if we had won, it was still not a good performance. We were bossed all over the park, and only their poor finishing and Gunn’s saves kept us in it. If you want to take my opinion as childish, then so be it. 

[mrD66M 99]

6 hours ago, NeymarSmith said:

We are neither a possession based side or a counter attacking side really. We are neither a team of technicians and magicians nor a group of target men and bruisers. 

 

Good. 

You realise all this makes us more unpredictable for opposition? We've shown we can do both. We don't just go on plan A like under our much loved former manager. Different games require different solutions. Even within a single half of a match, sometimes a change of approach is needed.

One of the few things predictable about City at moment is Gibson being vulnerable. Apart from that... we'll see. 

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

What's 'pathetic' is the need to abuse other posters for daring to hold different opinions. This forum has been at its absolute best on some recent threads with the level of analysis and debate. When people are able to articulate their opposing views with intelligence and courtesy it enables a greater level of understanding.

I've seen plenty of people (myself included) giving Smith his due credit for starting to get the team playing well and dropping the underperformers.

Some of us still have (perfectly reasonable) reservations about the tactics. And those who were unhappy about Farke's sacking are entitled to make comparisons, especially when the overriding narrative was to give Smith a transfer window and see how he goes in the Championship. We're still giving him the first 10 games before making our judgement... 

Reasoned debate is great and there has been some good examples of it of late but the majority of the time (for the last year) has seen Smith derided, often falsely criticised and abused by posters, simply for not being Farke. That's what's pathetic, in my opinion.

I'm not directly abusing posters, I'm not interested in childish tittle tattle posting back and forth, but I will voice my opinion. I apologise if you were offended but reading so many similar posts from the same posters over the last year, takes its toll. I have attempted to engage in debate and believe Smith has earned some reevaluation with a clearer style and philosophy, some promising signings and a very attractive way of playing, but the conjecture and unreasonable explanations continue (old school, tea drinking, no heart, no charisma etc etc.)

Edited August 24, 2022 by Fiery Zac

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

childish pissing and moaning

Careful, you're not allowed to 'abuse' posters. Players and head coach's on the other hand...

[Google Bot 3,275]

40 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

but the majority of the time (for the last year) has seen Smith derided, often falsely criticised and abused by posters, simply for not being Farke. That's what's pathetic, in my opinion.

We waved goodbye to a good man in Farke, with the promise that we'd see improvement and a very definite target to survive in the prem league.

We ended up bottom of the championship within 8-9 months.

People are demonstratively upset with those turn of events, and if they come on here to vent then so be it.  I think to be calling them pathetic is a little hypocritical personally.  All of us here, are a collective group who want this club to be as best as it can.  If people start to lose their ****, we dig in, talk it through and come out the other side tougher.

I'd rather these kind of debates happen in closed forums like this, than spilling out into players social media channels - that's where I start to define pathetic.  So maybe consider the weight of such words?

Edited August 24, 2022 by Google Bot

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

10 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

We waved goodbye to a good man in Farke, with the promise that we'd see improvement and a very definite target to survive in the prem league.

We ended up bottom of the championship within 8-9 months.

People are demonstratively upset with those turn of events, and if they come on here to vent then so be it.  I think to be calling them pathetic is a little hypocritical personally.  All of us here, are a collective group who want this club to be as best as it can.  If people start to lose their ****, we dig in, talk it through and come out the other side tougher.

I'd rather these kind of debates happen in closed forums like this, than spilling out into players social media channels - that's where I start to define pathetic.  So maybe consider the weight of such words?

I agree with some of that.

But seriously? You call me a hypocrite?

Page 1 of this thread - your responses to Branston. That's a whole different world of abuse. It's actually laughable you've given me your definition of pathetic.

My history is there for all to see. I get frustrated, passionate and can be argumentative. But I have never reached your level of rudeness or expletives aimed directly at another poster.

 

[hogesar 9,658]

3 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Yeah Cantwell has been great, it's Rashica where the question marks are. Last night was a great match for him to step and show what he's capable of - as Tzolis did.  

But he fluffed it, again.

Yep, Rashica has done nothing to warrant a place but to be fair, Smith has been big enough to drop him out the starting eleven despite him being a very expensive purchase for us, and having previously been an admirer of the player himself.

[hogesar 9,658]

The Barclay sings Dean Smiths name, so in all honesty I don't see a big issue with the weird fans on here who won't be happy unless they're personally invited to stroke Farke's hair. They're thankfully, not representative.

Those fans do need to grow up and realise that the personality of the manager is firstly, not even a relevant thing. You're seeing what they portray to the media, which is a protected version at the very least. Secondly, Farke's personality was mocked by some of the same fans in his first season. It's not his personality you liked. It was the fact we won two championship titles at a canter playing brilliant football.

There has been some justified criticism of Smith but the fact he isn't Farke doesn't count as one of them.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

6 hours ago, Petriix said:

On the other hand, we've gone from our B team beating their B team 6-0 to what would have been a highly fortunate victory very much against the balance of play.

It's totally reasonable to look at the comparison between how a Farke team tore them apart and a Smith team struggled. 

Rather than silly comparisons identifying the merits and pitfalls of the squads / manager from 12 months ago from a single repeated cup fixture, can we not just acknowledge how ridiculous it is to use one solitary game on each side for this debate in the first place? 

For instance, we drew 0-0 at home last time we played Millwall in the championship under Farke, and won 2-0 on Friday night under Smith rather comfortably. I don't recall anyone comparing those results and reading anything into it at all. Look at the difference in results over the course of the season and I'm sure you will be able to form a pretty reliable opinion, but one game? Come on now...

Same thing also applies to Tzolis, one good game during a season of (admittedly limited) but very poor performances means very little in the grand scheme of things. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to create a new thread like it proves a point. 

I'd personally suggest that the months and months of training and other appearances where he had a chance to prove something, but didn't, are more telling than one game where he did. Remember when RvW scored on his debut?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

24 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

We ended up bottom of the championship within 8-9 months.

Did you really look at our performances and have us at the bottom of the championship? It was 3-games in to the season and if it were not for some silly individual errors we would've been sitting comfortably on 5-7 points at that stage.

We managed to cut out the mistakes in the follow up fixtures and lo and behold we win two in a row and are back up near the play-offs. Despite having to field a midfielder totally out of position and debut a 19 year old in midfield.

Pure hyperbole in that comment really, but I guess unsurprising given the 'point' you were trying to make in your OP...

[king canary 7,604]

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The Barclay sings Dean Smiths name, so in all honesty I don't see a big issue with the weird fans on here who won't be happy unless they're personally invited to stroke Farke's hair. They're thankfully, not representative.

Those fans do need to grow up and realise that the personality of the manager is firstly, not even a relevant thing. You're seeing what they portray to the media, which is a protected version at the very least. Secondly, Farke's personality was mocked by some of the same fans in his first season. It's not his personality you liked. It was the fact we won two championship titles at a canter playing brilliant football.

There has been some justified criticism of Smith but the fact he isn't Farke doesn't count as one of them.

Yes!

Lambert was the most dour, boring manager in front of a microphone. However ask any player in his Norwich team and they'd tell you he was the most incredible motivator and man manager. What you see in his press conferences isn't what the players see behind closed door.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

4 hours ago, Google Bot said:

 

Looks awful doesn't he.

Oh right, the same Serbian team I already mentioned. Can you ping me some highlights of his 13 minutes against Fortuna Sittard or his 7 minutes against Fiorentina? He didn’t get a goal or assists in those games but I’m sure the halo will be visible on him somewhere. You’re right though, your expertise probably outweighs three coaching staff’s worth if professionals.
After you’ve got that footage can you find me some of George Best playing for England too? Then maybe look up some guy called Geoff Hurst. Whoever he is

Edited August 24, 2022 by SwearyCanary

[Petriix 2,834]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Rather than silly comparisons identifying the merits and pitfalls of the squads / manager from 12 months ago from a single repeated cup fixture, can we not just acknowledge how ridiculous it is to use one solitary game on each side for this debate in the first place? 

For instance, we drew 0-0 at home last time we played Millwall in the championship under Farke, and won 2-0 on Friday night under Smith rather comfortably. I don't recall anyone comparing those results and reading anything into it at all. Look at the difference in results over the course of the season and I'm sure you will be able to form a pretty reliable opinion, but one game? Come on now...

Same thing also applies to Tzolis, one good game during a season of (admittedly limited) but very poor performances means very little in the grand scheme of things. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to create a new thread like it proves a point. 

I'd personally suggest that the months and months of training and other appearances where he had a chance to prove something, but didn't, are more telling than one game where he did. Remember when RvW scored on his debut?

Or, how about the crazy idea of allowing a series of comparisons over a period of time to inform the overall debate?

For the record: I wasn't personally claiming that this particular result shows that Dean Smith is useless and worse than Farke. I've gone to great lengths to explain how I believe the change in system and squad were more significant and that Farke was scapegoated for Webber's failures.

I simply haven't seen any evidence that Dean Smith has improved anything. Let's face it, he'd have to win the Championship and then finish off the bottom of the Premier League before anyone could really claim otherwise with any credibility.

But let's also be fair: the bar is pretty high. Most of us would be pretty happy with a top 2 finish and seeing if the longer term change of plan yields any fruit.

The point is I can read people's views in support of Smith without feeling the need to ridicule and/or insult them. Just because I think it was a mistake to sack Farke doesn't mean I want to stroke his hair. 

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

11 hours ago, king canary said:

What a bizarre bunch some of you are.

Just a reminder of the team we put out tonight for a cup game we don't really care that much about.

A right back who hasn't kicked a ball in weeks.

A central defender on his second appearance. 

Our 6th choice left back.

5 midfielders who'd all much rather be going forward than defending.

Hugill.

All of that and we were about 30 seconds away from winning and somehow this means that manager is awful and must go?

Get a life.

I've been miserable about all of the recent games including the wins tbf. Last night wasn't a part of my thinking specifically.

We'll see. I hate the phrase but 'I hope I'm wrong'.

[baldy09 156]

It made a refreshing change to see the players and fans enjoying the football , may it continue 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

18 hours ago, astro said:

Could quite easily have been 5-2 to them. We look unfit, couldn’t match them physically or for work rate, and several of our players are still not playing for the shirt. 

Which ones would you say? 

Rashica the obvious one, think we should cut our losses. Who else?

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Secondly, Farke's personality was mocked by some of the same fans in his first season. It's not his personality you liked. It was the fact we won two championship titles at a canter playing brilliant football.

This. Summed up what I've been trying to say.

Farke was fantastic, and lagely responsible for the best season I've witnessed as a City fan. However Smith is doing his own thing, and deserves praise for what he's trying to do with our football this season. He couldn't sort out the c*** he was given last season (not sure anyone could) but to continue to find fault this season shows some are either not watching or just want to criticise dependent on the latest result(s).

Farke was treated similarly (though not as bad as the pathetic 😱 tea jokes became) in his first season and was regularly called on to leave. Its sad it all seems to come down to simply immediate results rather than look at the details and reasons behind what's going on. As recently as a week and a half ago, this season went from a write off to a relegation fight according to a poster. Look at the performances, look at the progression, look at the injuries, just look! Patience please!

 

[Google Bot 3,275]

1 hour ago, Fiery Zac said:

My history is there for all to see. I get frustrated, passionate and can be argumentative. But I have never reached your level of rudeness or expletives aimed directly at another poster.

The point I'm making is that this IS a place to vent frustrations and concerns that people have, rather than venting more publicly into the face of our players via social media.

So again, just think about the weight that your words carry when aiming such remarks about the general posting that occurs here.  You labelled the entire forum as being "pathetic" at times, and your reasoning boils down to others venting with different opinions to yourself.

[Google Bot 3,275]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Did you really look at our performances and have us at the bottom of the championship? It was 3-games in to the season and if it were not for some silly individual errors we would've been sitting comfortably on 5-7 points at that stage.

Honestly, no.  I thought we were unlucky and had some really great 10-15 spells - felt we play like a top 6 team at times.  But it's been the same old concern of not being able to feed Pukki which is the overhanging niggle I guess.

As I wrote previously, I'm not getting overly invested into being pro or anti Smith, I've got no interest in letting that bias starting to form.  I don't want to be like Kieran where I'm desperate for Smith to be gone, and I don't want to be naïve and slip into the mindset of thinking we shoulda won each week... I'm just fluttering, and see where the wind takes us - I feel that approach provides me with a little more balanced view on things.

However, it doesn't mean that someone else isn't feeling extremely upset that we were offered an improvement, removed a future legend of the club and found ourselves bottom of championship - that's just facts.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Google Bot

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

The point I'm making is that this IS a place to vent frustrations and concerns that people have, rather than venting more publicly into the face of our players via social media.

So again, just think about the weight that your words carry when aiming such remarks about the general posting that occurs here.  You labelled the entire forum as being "pathetic" at times, and your reasoning boils down to others venting with different opinions to yourself.

Ok fair enough. No, the whole forum is not pathetic. However the overwhelming posts around Smith and his failures in charisma, leadership, tea drinking and fitness were.

Also, Branston is not a **** and I think you need to take your own advice on the weight your words have. I warrant singling a poster out has fer more of an effect than a group statement.

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

The Barclay sings Dean Smiths name, so in all honesty I don't see a big issue with the weird fans on here who won't be happy unless they're personally invited to stroke Farke's hair. They're thankfully, not representative.

Those fans do need to grow up and realise that the personality of the manager is firstly, not even a relevant thing. You're seeing what they portray to the media, which is a protected version at the very least. Secondly, Farke's personality was mocked by some of the same fans in his first season. It's not his personality you liked. It was the fact we won two championship titles at a canter playing brilliant football.

There has been some justified criticism of Smith but the fact he isn't Farke doesn't count as one of them.

I liked Farke in his first season. He's been of the very few managers that I've actually taken the time to watch pre match stuff regularly.  I did state that the cult of personality stuff is something I try not to judge Smith harshly on though, he clearly doesn't enjoy that part of his job.

Somebody stated that Lambert was dour, true but that edge made him actually interesting sometimes. Maybe Smith is putting on the manager bot 1000 facade to get through those quickly and he's actually brilliant behind the scenes. I guess I'll get behind that when I see buy in on the pitch or a proper Norwich interview with him.

All of this is secondary to performances and so far I think our performances are mirroring the Neil Adams season. We'll win some games because we're a stronger team than most but I doubt we'll do it consistently under we turn a big hairpin corner under Smith

Edited August 24, 2022 by KeiranShikari

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Or, how about the crazy idea of allowing a series of comparisons over a period of time to inform the overall debate?

 

I agree - and with the rest of your post - but the below is what you initially said.

I disagree that 'its totally reasonable to look at the comparison between how a Farke team tore them apart and a Smith team struggled'.

Particularly when we are discussing a B team side, against another B team side, in a cup which many people view as meaningless, with a whole plethora of different factors to consider between the two sides in terms of selections and player availability (which has since been debated in the following pages). However even accounting for those factors, ultimately the fact it is just a solitary repeated fixture makes the whole exercise totally pointless.  

I understand why you prefer Farke, and I'm sure nearly everyone else does, if not all. But I don't really see how this game can be a measure for the wider Farke v Smith comparison - unless you can point to similar differences in performance levels all the way through their comparative reigns.

As it is both managers struggled terribly in the premier league, with no real material difference. You could argue we were better in the first 28 games of 19/20, and we were, but Farke's following 21 PL games across two seasons were one of the worst I've seen. Smith's 27 games were just as bad.

We are now seeing how well a Smith side performs in the league below which will really put the meat on the bones on the comparison. One thing in Smith's favour (in terms of sympathy at least), is that our first 11 appears much weaker now than it was 2 years ago. 

Interestingly we were already playing a 4-3-3 in the 6-0 under Farke, as below. I recall comments about it being a snippet (what proved to be very hopeful one) of what we could expect under this new style. So if its a formation / tactics comparison you want to make between Smith and Farke with these matches then I don't think this was the one. 

I know you already know this stuff, as you have posted at length on here before (and rather well) about the abandonment of Farkeball / the 4-2-3-1 for the second PL season. But it does make me wonder why you now want to compare a single result? Was the system good after all...?

 

 

 

 

 

[corbs 147]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:with the weird fans on here who won't be happy unless they're personally invited to stroke Farke's hair. They're thankfully, not representative.

Those fans do need to grow up and realise that the personality of the manager is firstly, not even a relevant thing. 

The second comment I can’t agree with.

The first is actually a bit weird in itself.

Thankfully I’ve never gown up which is why I spend time on here and follow City. 

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

12 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Honestly, no.  I thought we were unlucky and had some really great 10-15 spells - felt we play like a top 6 team at times.  But it's been the same old concern of not being able to feed Pukki which is the overhanging niggle I guess.

As I wrote previously, I'm not getting overly invested into being pro or anti Smith, I've got no interest in letting that bias starting to form.  I don't want to be like Kieran where I'm desperate for Smith to be gone, and I don't want to be naïve and slip into the mindset of thinking we shoulda won each week... I'm just fluttering, and see where the wind takes us - I feel that approach provides me with a little more balanced view on things.

However, it doesn't mean that someone else isn't feeling extremely upset that we were offered an improvement, removed a future legend of the club and found ourselves bottom of championship - that's just facts.

All fair points, although the comment you made did feel like there was some bias in there. It was true that the decision to sack Farke / appoint Smith took us to the bottom of the league, but a bit disingenuous to ignore the fact that we promptly bounced straight back up to 8th afterwards. Even if we win the league that decision still would've taken us to the bottom of the championship this season at one point...

IMO if you were to draw a line from Farke's last 11 games in the premier league to this season I don't think we are in an unexpected place at all. I wouldn't say we've gone notably backwards since those games, if at all really. Farkeball was well and truly dead before Farke left, sadly!

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

posted in wrong thread.

Edited August 24, 2022 by KeiranShikari

[Google Bot 3,275]

6 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

Ok fair enough. No, the whole forum is not pathetic. However the overwhelming posts around Smith and his failures in charisma, leadership, tea drinking and fitness were.

And nowhere have I stood opposed to that.  And this thread wasn't even related to Smith, it was Kieran that raised what I thought was a tongue in cheek joke.

6 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

Also, Branston is not a ****

Yes he was, he couldn't see the point of the thread, I explained that there were two made by the time he had posted, and then he tried attributing BOTH to me, so I clearly explained them both and which one I was making in order to separate from the "anti smith" sentiments that had creeped in.   Joked about the Americanisms he used (hence the smiley).

From that he chose to create an argument and be a **** about it, trying to twist my thread into being "anti-smith".  Nothing in that post was offensive from me.

It was after there that I referred to him as a pompous ****.  I'll happily explain my points to anyone that doesn't understand, but not listening and instead looking for a way to twist people's words just turns me off a person I'm afraid.

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

I'm not even anti-smith. I'm just anti most things Smith has done so far,

[hogesar 9,658]

29 minutes ago, corbs said:

The second comment I can’t agree with.

The first is actually a bit weird in itself.

Thankfully I’ve never gown up which is why I spend time on here and follow City. 

 

Good news is you can be a mature adult and still follow football.