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The Great Mass Debater

Do you actually want promotion?

So you actually want promotion?  

233 members have voted

  1. 1. So you actually want promotion?

    • Yes
      180
    • No
      52


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54 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

We only progress by promotion otherwise you can kiss Pukki, Nunez, Aaarons and the other PL looking players goodbye when we fail to bounce back and this squad goes one way, backwards.

And the flipside of this is that such players (not necessarily the ones you mention) are much more in the shop-window if we're in the PL.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

And the flipside of this is that such players (not necessarily the ones you mention) are much more in the shop-window if we're in the PL.

Tell that to Huddersfield and the numerous other sides who’ve had their best assets stripped on failure to get promoted.

Conversely the only team that’s sold its best player on promotion is us. Relegation is what usually prompts loss of such players but that’s part and parcel of the cycle.

Edited by Monty13
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2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Relegation is what usually prompts loss of such players but that’s part and parcel of the cycle.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Teams are much more likely to take a chance on Nunez if he's had a good season for us in the Prem than in the Champs

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28 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

This may be an argument from some but not from me. I dont think our prospects at Premier League level will ever change unless the club's finances do - and this means wealthy owners unfortunately. Whilst we dont have that, I'd rather we stayed at our level. This is not a lack of ambition, merely it's suspension whilst things remain the same.

So you’d rather we were a mid table Champ side in perpetuity with the only objective avoiding relegation and no interest in promotion?

I remember the many years of obscurity and then worse.

I wish we were more competitive in the PL but you can only give it a go by getting there, I hate getting relegated so pathetically but the ride up is at least fun.

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Just now, Monty13 said:

So you’d rather we were a mid table Champ side in perpetuity with the only objective avoiding relegation and no interest in promotion?

I remember the many years of obscurity and then worse.

I wish we were more competitive in the PL but you can only give it a go by getting there, I hate getting relegated so pathetically but the ride up is at least fun.

I guess we have to hope that we get promotion this year and that Attanasio can bankroll a summer window that gives us a chance. I think I'm more in the camp of "I'd be happy for it to take two years if we're better equipped after that," but I absolutely accept the risks of that approach. I guess it'll be interesting in that light to see how Bournemouth get on this year, having come down with us and taken both years of the parachute payments to go back. (Obviously they have the ballast of a few consecutive years in the PL, and richer owners, so they're not a totally fair comparison, but even so...)

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I genuinely cannot understand the mentality of those who vote 'no'.

Some questions for those people:

Do you want us to win tonight?

If the answer is 'no', will you be actively supporting Millwall? 

If the answer is 'yes', at which point will you start supporting our opponents?

Should we reach the Playoff final, will you go? And will you support Norwich or the opposition?

Were you disappointed when we beat Middlesbrough at Wembley in 2015?

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Monty i was talking about progressing from a Championship club upon promotion into a club making a good fist of it in the PL which we have failed to do three times in a row now. Fur coat and no knickers comes to mind.

Well that’s not what you said, you asked how we had progressed.

Yes we’ve failed to stay in the PL but 3 promotions and two Championship titles in such a short time isn’t progress for us as a club? 

The overall improvement to the facilities and team isn’t progress? They’ve only been possible through promotion finances.

I desperately want us to make a better fist of it on promotion but wishing we weren’t promoted because we’ve failed three times is just alien to me, especially when I know what Championship mid table Norwich looks like.

Edited by Monty13
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4 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

So you’d rather we were a mid table Champ side in perpetuity with the only objective avoiding relegation and no interest in promotion?

I remember the many years of obscurity and then worse.

I wish we were more competitive in the PL but you can only give it a go by getting there, I hate getting relegated so pathetically but the ride up is at least fun.

Whatever happens there will still be a match to go to or watch. Are you watching us in the EPL or the opposition? If success is winning then winning is everything so you could argue Delia is now doing us a disservice.

Until we get the ESL the nwe are going to have to realise top 26 isn't bad but its not a given that we will always achieve it. So carry on supporting. Take each game on its merits and hopefully by the end of the season the plusses excede the minuses.

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Posted (edited)

I can't think of the support of any other club in the entire football league who, when faced with this question, would not actually be 100% in the affirmative, let alone having over 20% happy with the second rate. 

Unbelievable.

Little Old Norwich.

We know our place they seem to be saying, and that place certainly isn't as a participant in the purported 'best league in the world,' with worldwide exposure, with some of the world's best players performing on our home turf in front of full houses and with the chance to fill our squad with players equal to some of the best performers ever to play in the colours (and Nunez would seem to be the latest.) 

Mediocrity in the Chumps means we win a few more games after all. 

Edited by BroadstairsR
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Just now, keelansgrandad said:

Whatever happens there will still be a match to go to or watch. Are you watching us in the EPL or the opposition? If success is winning then winning is everything so you could argue Delia is now doing us a disservice.

Until we get the ESL the nwe are going to have to realise top 26 isn't bad but its not a given that we will always achieve it. So carry on supporting. Take each game on its merits and hopefully by the end of the season the plusses excede the minuses.

I’ll always go watch Norwich play whenever I can but if we’ve given up on an ambition to achieve something it starts to nag, what’s the point?

You’re right we might not always achieve top 26, I’m ok with that, but I don’t agree with not wanting to try.

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43 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

it's suspension whilst things remain the same

I'm pretty close to this view, I think. But we have to admit that there is a risk here, that suspension becomes decline, as it did post-Worthy in the 00s. 

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I can think of many reasons why I want us to be promoted, the latest being I don't want us to end up being in the same league as Ip5w1ch.

Yes, we've enjoyed some great times along the way but to end up right where we started will be mightily depressing. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I’ll always go watch Norwich play whenever I can but if we’ve given up on an ambition to achieve something it starts to nag, what’s the point?

You’re right we might not always achieve top 26, I’m ok with that, but I don’t agree with not wanting to try.

Of course everyone wants us to try or else there is no point playing. But its not the goal of everyone. Its not unambitious, its being happy with the value they get for their ticket.

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1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

People who don’t want promotion will be the same complaining about mid table obscurity in a few years time I’d be willing to bet.

You play the game that’s in front of you. Yes it would suck to be humbled again at PL level but this idea we can build a more competitive PL team by staying in the Championship a few seasons on a Championship mid table budget is fantasy.

We only progress by promotion otherwise you can kiss Pukki, Nunez, Aaarons and the other PL looking players goodbye when we fail to bounce back and this squad goes one way, backwards.

Yep, those saying no on here would be the first to criticise the club if they don't get promoted. I.e they can't win unless they invest £150 mill on promotion, and then they still likely won't win as will still be one of the favourites for relegation.

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Oh, and another thing. Between 2002-2018, Ipswich spent 16 seasons in the Championship before being relegated in their 17th. During those 16 seasons, they had one relegation battle and two Playoff semi final appearances. But generally, those 16 years were mid-table nothingness. 

Is that really better, more exciting and more entertaining than being a yo-yo club?

For me, being a yo-yo club is far more appealing than being a nothing club.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

So you’d rather we were a mid table Champ side in perpetuity with the only objective avoiding relegation and no interest in promotion?

I remember the many years of obscurity and then worse.

I wish we were more competitive in the PL but you can only give it a go by getting there, I hate getting relegated so pathetically but the ride up is at least fun.

No, not mid-table, a team winning more often than not and finishing high up the table, consistently. Rather than being the best team in the league one season, and the shi ttest the next

Edited by The Great Mass Debater
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3 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Oh, and another thing. Between 2002-2018, Ipswich spent 16 seasons in the Championship before being relegated in their 17th. During those 16 seasons, they had one relegation battle and two Playoff semi final appearances. But generally, those 16 years were mid-table nothingness. 

Is that really better, more exciting and more entertaining than being a yo-yo club?

For me, being a yo-yo club is far more appealing than being a nothing club.

Yep, I'd rather have one good season in two than one in 16.

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27 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I genuinely cannot understand the mentality of those who vote 'no'.

Some questions for those people:

Do you want us to win tonight?

If the answer is 'no', will you be actively supporting Millwall? 

If the answer is 'yes', at which point will you start supporting our opponents?

Should we reach the Playoff final, will you go? And will you support Norwich or the opposition?

Were you disappointed when we beat Middlesbrough at Wembley in 2015?

No.

No.

No.

Norwich.

No.

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23 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I genuinely cannot understand the mentality of those who vote 'no'.

Some questions for those people:

Do you want us to win tonight?

If the answer is 'no', will you be actively supporting Millwall? 

If the answer is 'yes', at which point will you start supporting our opponents?

Should we reach the Playoff final, will you go? And will you support Norwich or the opposition?

Were you disappointed when we beat Middlesbrough at Wembley in 2015?

I dont want us to lose. That's the point. And Premier League football means a season of misery and failure, with no hope of anything else. So no, I dont like losing, whomever we're playing, Millwall included.

I wasnt disappointed when we beat Middlesbrough because Lambert in recent memory had shown it was possible to stay up and give the big boys a good game. I felt we only got relegated that season because Hughton f*cked up by 'upgrading' our effective players and installing an attrition style of football which bar an anomylous 12 game unbeaten run was completely ineffective.

Alex Neil had lots of promise and it was easy to believe that we could get back to our swashbuckling ways and put Hughton's failure behind us.

7 years later my position is very different. We have proved you cant survive without significant recruitment. We have also proved that the only recruitment we are capable of is players our competitors dont want. Surprise surprise when those players turn out to be cr*p.

I no longer believe, and worse still I dont believe in the manager or the system or the identity of the club, whereas I had complete faith in Farke and where the club was going. Without good investment Farke couldnt take us further - I dont believe any manager can - we've reached our ceiling with our current circumstances. Without wealthier owners, promotion simply means misery. Misery Id rather not have.

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25 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I’ll always go watch Norwich play whenever I can but if we’ve given up on an ambition to achieve something it starts to nag, what’s the point?

You’re right we might not always achieve top 26, I’m ok with that, but I don’t agree with not wanting to try.

Not given up, merely suspended. Promotion feels futile at present. I have a kind of 'learned helplessness'.

When that changes - ie we can buy/pay players capable of keeping us in the league, my ambition will return.

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Personally, yes, get promoted!!! What's the point if not?? Aim to be better, be the best you can be......if happyness is a play off loss......I'll take a season in the prem any day

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26 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I'm pretty close to this view, I think. But we have to admit that there is a risk here, that suspension becomes decline, as it did post-Worthy in the 00s. 

Again though, this all comes down to finance. We declined because the finance wasnt there. Without some promotions the parachute/Premier League money wasnt there, which we depend on. The youth players coming through for the team or for profit wasnt there.

If Worthy had the funds, we wouldnt have declined. 

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From the POV that I want my club to reach as high as it can, that’s EPL. The top league is a pit of money for sure but it’s still populated by humans playing football. If we are there, poor or not we have a chance to achieve survival and we may not always be as poor as we have been. There is the chance that we go up and it IS different this time. If football was all about not giving things a go because of a likely (not inevitable) outcome then we’d have no games whatsoever, it would just be a league determined by net spend  and xg. Last year was poor as I’ve ever seen but if you tried to rob me of that Man City win the year before then I’d be gutted, I still remember how it felt in the stands and those moments happen and are worth the pain when it comes IMO

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Of course, without new investment another year in the championship - once again - will increase the risk of being a Madison away from administration again. 

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Posted (edited)

As a fan I clearly want us to win every game and win the league if we can - but I am definitely hesitant around the wider implications of another promotion. I can understand why someone might not really want us to be promoted after the last two attempts, but I'm sure that will never make them actively wish for a Norwich defeat, ever. 

I have said before how I felt that not bouncing back could do the club good in the long run, not in terms of finances (clearly), but the the mentality of the squad which is hugely important, as well as our reputation as a club and how the neutrals / pundits (and prospective players) view us etc.

We now have a team of players most of whom have failed once terribly in a PL attempt at safety and some have endured two failings. These weren't just dropping down a division but record breaking 20th place humiliations; what does that do to the players' minds and the culture of the club behind the scenes? 

Particularly when the whole thing gets compounded in all forms of the media, with everyone seemingly sticking their boot in last season about our 'ambition' / recruitment, quality of player, yo-yo status as a club etc etc. I can envisage a collective national sigh if we get promoted again, with most writing us off to 20th place without a moments thought. This happened to an extent last time so it will be even worse after a second 20th place in a row. Worse part is we can't really blame them, they were right!

So from this sense a couple of seasons to rebuild in the champs may do us some good, bring through some youth, move some of the older players on who are still wearing those scars, give the whole club some fresh impetus to go up again with a new feeling of hunger and desire to succeed. 

Whether we have PL money or not we will always be a relatively big club in this league and provided we are still bringing in young talent with potential to increase in value I think our model will continue to see us towards the upper reaches of the league. 

Another shot of the premier however can never be sniffed at. But are we going to stay in it or come straight back down again?

Perhaps a more interesting poll would've been: would you take promotion this season to finish 20th next season with another humiliating campaign on record? We get the finances but have to endure another 12 months of suffering... Now that's definitely a much harder call...

Edited by Hank shoots Skyler
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56 minutes ago, Unhinged Canary said:

No.

No.

No.

Norwich.

No.

 

53 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

I dont want us to lose. That's the point. And Premier League football means a season of misery and failure, with no hope of anything else. So no, I dont like losing, whomever we're playing, Millwall included.

So you want us to keep winning but not be promoted?

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Posted (edited)

I cannot conceivably vote no, so the answer is - and must always be - yes. 

The players are professional sportsmen, highly competitive, with other teams, with each other, with themselves. Any hint of a no mentality makes success virtually impossible. 
 

As the very well paid golf psychologist Dr Bob Rotella likes to (wisely) say:

’..positive thinking is not 100% successful, but negative thinking always is..!…’

Parma 

 

Edited by Parma Ham's gone mouldy
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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Of course everyone wants us to try or else there is no point playing. But its not the goal of everyone. Its not unambitious, its being happy with the value they get for their ticket.

The question was do you want to get promoted though? If you don’t, then why do you want us to try? It wasn’t would you be happy if we weren’t.

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