Jump to content
The Great Mass Debater

Do you actually want promotion?

So you actually want promotion?  

234 members have voted

  1. 1. So you actually want promotion?

    • Yes
      180
    • No
      53


Recommended Posts

Interesting discussion. Completely get the apathy a lot are feeling; had a chat with my parents about it only last week. They've been supporting Norwich for over 50 years and even they can sense it.

It's hard to get excited about tucking into your sticky toffee pudding if you know that as part of the deal you have to eat a dog sh*t pie straight after. 

OTBC

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Smithy, I feel very fortunate to have been at the game Saturday. The pandemic and being unable to go to games for so long was the real downer and I'm still making up for lost time.

I know how much you love going to the footie Nutty and fair play to you for hanging in there whatever.

Lockdown didn't do football any favours at all. Watching us win that second promotion felt very detached as if it was happening in a parallel universe. It didn't help that because they couldn't go some people found other interests that they didn't know they liked so the bond was broken to some extent. Coming back to the disaster that was last season also did nothing to regenerate enthusiasm.

PS. I can see how ' c h I n k of light ' falls foul of the screening on here but ' Chinese '  somehow doesn't have the same ring, does it ?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Indy said:

It would be amazing as the best players will still want to play at the big clubs, I but the rest would be free to move on! It would tighten the league make it competitive and not one club would be safe from the start of the season!

It wouldnt generate the money that the current version of the Premier League does though. And that's what it's all about.

You know how they say governments dont have any money, they only spend your money?

Well it's the same for football. When Ronaldo earns £500,000 per game, and Neymar moves for £190m, ultimately that cost goes back to the  ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶u̶m̶e̶r̶  fans

Thats why we see this:

https://www.nationalworld.com/sport/football/premier-league-most-expensive-replica-football-shirts-revealed-every-club-puts-prices-up-above-inflation-3802223

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/09/2022 at 20:02, nutty nigel said:

So help me out Rob. Help me understand. If 'you always want us to win Saturday' How do you not want promotion?

Surely wining the league and being promoted is the motivation for wanting to win on Saturday?

Hi Nutty,

Not sure I can add anything to the very eloquent comments from other posters, but I think it's perfectly possible to have two ways of seeing something at the same time. Personally I'm conflicted about things. I haven't been to a game for a while (for a variety of reasons) but I watch as much as I can on TV and online and I always want City to win. Of course I do. It's pretty much the definition of being a fan. I loved Onel's goal at St Andrews, for instance, was out of my seat and shouting at my laptop!

But when I step back from the individual games and think about the wider picture, I'm not particularly excited about the prospect of promotion. I'm not sure I can see us competing on our budget within the grotesque way the PL is run, and I'm very uncomfortable about the sort of influxes of cash that would allow us to become competitive. If we ever became like Newcastle that would be the end of my support of the club. (Fwiw, I do think that Attanasio's interest is very encouraging and might be a decent middle way.) So if we end up missing out on promotion at the end of this season I won't be that disappointed, while, if we do get promotion I won't be that enthusiastic about another season of probable humiliation in the Prem. I can't speak for @The Great Mass Debater, but that was how I was interpreting his question. Note how qualified my phrases in italics are. I wouldn't go quite as far as saying I don't want promotion (and I haven't actually voted in the poll!)

I think you asked someone about wanting us to miss the crucial penalty in a play-off final. I seriously doubt anyone on this board (apart from the obvious binners) would want that. But I do remember coming out of the play-off final in Cardiff in 2002 feeling not too disappointed that we'd lost. Our team clearly wasn't ready for the Premier League, and there were equally obviously good times ahead. (On a similar note, I think Brentford have really benefitted from not going up too soon.) 

I remember being absolutely devastated when we were relegated in 1995. But our last two relegations have been met with a bit of a sigh of relief - thank god it's all over. Most of that is because I hate the Premier League and what it's become. But obviously you're right that it gets a bit ridiculous if you don't want your club to play at the highest level. I think that's why a lot of people are conflicted, and I think it's probably why the atmosphere at CR is reportedly so flat at the moment. A lot of people wondering what the point of it all is. I'm genuinely delighted for you if you're not feeling that and completely understand that the relief of being back in the ground after the pandemic trumps everything else. For me personally, that hasn't been possible, and there's every chance that that might be part of why I'm feeling the way I am. 

all the best to you - always enjoy your contributions on here

Robert

 

Edited by Robert N. LiM
typos
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

It's hard to get excited about tucking into your sticky toffee pudding if you know that as part of the deal you have to eat a dog sh*t pie straight after. 

 

haha. I've just written an epic post on this thread. Could just have quoted this instead.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, king canary said:

So, by current costs, we'd likely need to spend about £100m

Good post. This sentence stuck out. Especially in the current economic climate, that would be completely grotesque, as much of competing in the PL is. Not sure how much I can make my peace with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Though I certainly hear what some fans have been saying about the standard in the Championship in recent years.

Yes, and I think there's a sense that we know that we might have an unfair advantage in this league, through the parachute payments and the five subs. It's obviously not as grotesque an advantage as Man City have over us in the PL, but unfairness is unfairness regardless of whether you benefit from it or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Indeed. It pretty much summed it up more succintly than my waffle

I thought your posts were excellent and really resonated with me.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, and I think there's a sense that we know that we might have an unfair advantage in this league, through the parachute payments and the five subs. It's obviously not as grotesque an advantage as Man City have over us in the PL, but unfairness is unfairness regardless of whether you benefit from it or not.

Definitely think there is something in that. Yoyo clubs exist because the parachute payments give relegated clubs an unfair advantage.

At the risk of sounding arrogant and entitled, we're in a position now where we'll never be good enough for the Premier League but too strong for most of the Championship, meaning that essentially clubs like us block the others. Another sad development of the PL system

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, The Great Mass Debater said:

Definitely think there is something in that. Yoyo clubs exist because the parachute payments give relegated clubs an unfair advantage.

 

I hesitated before typing 'unfair' because obviously the payments have come from our earlier success in getting promoted, so in that sense they're earned. But the early success of us, Burnley and Sheff Utd does make it look as though the Champs is becoming as predictable as the PL. Modern football is so rubbish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I hesitated before typing 'unfair' because obviously the payments have come from our earlier success in getting promoted, so in that sense they're earned. But the early success of us, Burnley and Sheff Utd does make it look as though the Champs is becoming as predictable as the PL. Modern football is so rubbish.

We are kind of abusing the parachute system. We're entitled to do so, but it's not in the spirit of what it is intended for. 

I remember (perhaps incorrectly, but if incorrect the general point still stands) when Middlesbrough went down and still had Ravanelli etc on huge wages. Other clubs that couldnt get shot of big wage players because noone else would pay those wages and the players wouldnt leave if it meant a paycut. Parachute payments are supposed to be insulation against that kind of drastic change in finances so clubs dont go to the wall.

We dont generally do that, relegation isnt the financial catastrophe it can be for established clubs or sh*t or bust newly promoted sides. We have a much more sensible model, but nevertheless we are gaming the system. Nothing wrong with that but I can see why other clubs see it as a cynical money grab. 

Perhaps there needs to be a better system where parachute payments are means-tested or something, so that they fulfil their intended role rather than simply being a source of income for a club like ours resulting in a 'Championship big 6'

Edited by The Great Mass Debater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to be in the top league playing the best footballing teams in the country. I just wish that league would reform to make it less about the billionaire investors. While there’s the £100 million pay out for getting there and any subsequent year you stay, even the unsuccessful clubs will tolerate it. 

In truth, unless we get a system of capped salaries, maximum spends that apply to all but are based on the weakest club financially to ensure their sustainable future you won’t get a league without huge bias. Gone are the days where developing the best talent meant you won. Now you buy in the best talent, developed elsewhere, play the ones you want, loan the ones you don’t want for now and you control the outcome. Clubs with great development earn by adding value but lose assets to be solvent, then a cartel of super wealthy clubs all just utilise them as feeder clubs as a second tier within the top tier. If there’s enough in the top cartel they effectively agree to battle it out amongst themselves knowing they’re never out of the top 4-6 (Uk) or top 2-3 (other European leagues) and therefore have the constant TV revenue stream to fund their buying of talent from the mid table Europe clubs, who themselves are largely ‘safe’ in the top tier but face difficulty if their talent development dries up. They then have to seek big investors (eg Everton) to constantly buy their way out of trouble. Some may eventually drop out and then they’re goners if the pockets are not deep enough to bounce back without losing personnel. 
We find ourselves in a weird zone of being very low on owner capital, quite good at developing talent but ultimately need that PL money to sustain us without investment. We do it well enough, but it’s fragile. Football clubs are business models, the marketing team are nearly as important as the coaching team. It’s just my love of the game and my regional identity that keep me loving every minute. I would dearly love a team of local lads pitting themselves against the boys from bootle or wherever, but that is total fantasy land so if you can’t beat em join em (or watch Wroxham or Lowestoft or something)  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want us promoted and then try to stay up without just crossing our fingers. Praise the lord for this new investment and may it be the first step after years of stagnation to kick on properly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

I feel you're being a bit concrete in your thinking Nutty. It doesnt have to go as far down the thought chain as actively wanting your side to lose. And can I explore that one a bit? Wouldnt you actually get bored pretty quickly if Norwich won every game? Isnt the possibility of defeat and the challenge of overcoming that what gives the game meaning?

I dont believe for one second that you are so basic that you'd happily clap every Norwich win if it meant nothing.

Think about when we played Paulton and won 7-0. Did you lose your sh*t every time we scored? Of course not, because it wasnt a huge challenge.

So thinking in pure philosophical form, you'd never wish for Norwich to never lose again would you? Wouldnt that make the games devoid of meaning? Oh great, we won again!

 

Im talking philosophically about what it is that stokes the fires as a fan, and how that is lacking at present and is more nuanced than simply winning games.

The Lambert and Farke promotions were exciting because they were outrageous and the football was great to watch. We did nothing of note in the Prem because we were hopelessly outclassed and I dont see that changing without money, such is the nature of the Premier League beast.

Perhaps there is apathy because yoyoing has become a bit boring, a bit samey. Here we are again, going back and forwards more repeatedly than Bez

My thinking is straightforward, simple like me. Maybe basic because I don't even know what nuanced means. It's a word I've seen a lot used mainly by journos but I had never heard of it 'til a few years ago🙃  I went to Carrow Road on Saturday and wanted us to win. It's in the now, in the Championship, during September of a long hard season. I didn't go there thinking about the PL. Worrying about if we got promoted or what might happen in the future. I don't understand why on earth anyone would do that. We might all be dead. Or the PL may have eaten itself up and gone bust. And if I'm still alive and the PL is still corrupting merrily along the road to oblivion we probably won't be promoted anyway. I would say our chances are 50/50 at best and that's only because we have already got 19 points on the board. Most seasons we don't get promoted or relegated. It's just that lately it's been like busses outside Bonds where a  few have all come at once. 

I do worry that we have fans paying £600 a season who now seem to have their enjoyment of the games governed by things that may or may not happen way into the future. It's a strange old atmosphere in the ground this season. Onel warming up seemed to fire up the fans but once he was on the pitch he seemed to become part of the general apathy. I don't understand that. Perhaps he nuanced after he came on...

🙃

 

 

Edited by nutty nigel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Hi Nutty,

Not sure I can add anything to the very eloquent comments from other posters, but I think it's perfectly possible to have two ways of seeing something at the same time. Personally I'm conflicted about things. I haven't been to a game for a while (for a variety of reasons) but I watch as much as I can on TV and online and I always want City to win. Of course I do. It's pretty much the definition of being a fan. I loved Onel's goal at St Andrews, for instance, was out of my seat and shouting at my laptop!

But when I step back from the individual games and think about the wider picture, I'm not particularly excited about the prospect of promotion. I'm not sure I can see us competing on our budget within the grotesque way the PL is run, and I'm very uncomfortable about the sort of influxes of cash that would allow us to become competitive. If we ever became like Newcastle that would be the end of my support of the club. (Fwiw, I do think that Attanasio's interest is very encouraging and might be a decent middle way.) So if we end up missing out on promotion at the end of this season I won't be that disappointed, while, if we do get promotion I won't be that enthusiastic about another season of probable humiliation in the Prem. I can't speak for @The Great Mass Debater, but that was how I was interpreting his question. Note how qualified my phrases in italics are. I wouldn't go quite as far as saying I don't want promotion (and I haven't actually voted in the poll!)

I think you asked someone about wanting us to miss the crucial penalty in a play-off final. I seriously doubt anyone on this board (apart from the obvious binners) would want that. But I do remember coming out of the play-off final in Cardiff in 2002 feeling not too disappointed that we'd lost. Our team clearly wasn't ready for the Premier League, and there were equally obviously good times ahead. (On a similar note, I think Brentford have really benefitted from not going up too soon.) 

I remember being absolutely devastated when we were relegated in 1995. But our last two relegations have been met with a bit of a sigh of relief - thank god it's all over. Most of that is because I hate the Premier League and what it's become. But obviously you're right that it gets a bit ridiculous if you don't want your club to play at the highest level. I think that's why a lot of people are conflicted, and I think it's probably why the atmosphere at CR is reportedly so flat at the moment. A lot of people wondering what the point of it all is. I'm genuinely delighted for you if you're not feeling that and completely understand that the relief of being back in the ground after the pandemic trumps everything else. For me personally, that hasn't been possible, and there's every chance that that might be part of why I'm feeling the way I am. 

all the best to you - always enjoy your contributions on here

Robert

 

Thanks Robert. I always enjoy your posts too👍

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

We are kind of abusing the parachute system. We're entitled to do so, but it's not in the spirit of what it is intended for. 

I remember (perhaps incorrectly, but if incorrect the general point still stands) when Middlesbrough went down and still had Ravanelli etc on huge wages. Other clubs that couldnt get shot of big wage players because noone else would pay those wages and the players wouldnt leave if it meant a paycut. Parachute payments are supposed to be insulation against that kind of drastic change in finances so clubs dont go to the wall.

We dont generally do that, relegation isnt the financial catastrophe it can be for established clubs or sh*t or bust newly promoted sides. We have a much more sensible model, but nevertheless we are gaming the system. Nothing wrong with that but I can see why other clubs see it as a cynical money grab. 

Perhaps there needs to be a better system where parachute payments are means-tested or something, so that they fulfil their intended role rather than simply being a source of income for a club like ours resulting in a 'Championship big 6'

Just as I think we have some common ground this happens!

Why on earth would anyone want to change a system to punish the club they support. It's mental. It's like what other clubs fans and  the odd journo say means more to you than our club. Club's that are relegated after just one season lose the third year anyway. 

I'm afraid you are besotted with the PL. An institution rooted in debt occasionally fertilised by corruption. It will end in tears buddy. Such things always do.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I kind of watch football for the football matches. I don't sit there thinking "Oh, but if this was a Prem match we'd get beaten".

1) We're not in the Prem

2) We have no divine right to be there. Much bigger clubs than us have spent many more years not being in the top tier than we have.

3) As Nutty says, promotion isn't guaranteed any season. The biggest reason for the lack of vocal support at the ground is in my opinion due to the expectations. "Yeah, we won 6 games in a row BUT WERE THEY REALLY THAT GOOD?!"

It wasn't that long ago in football terms that we'd have been absolutely desperate just for 3 wins in a row in the Championship, let alone 6.

It's this opinion that reinforces my view that those who think "as long as we had a go at staying up in the Prem we'd be happy" - is total nonsense. Unless we stay up, then improve on 'just staying up', then improve to a top half team....it starts to get unrealistic but that's what fans do.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, and I think there's a sense that we know that we might have an unfair advantage in this league, through the parachute payments and the five subs. It's obviously not as grotesque an advantage as Man City have over us in the PL, but unfairness is unfairness regardless of whether you benefit from it or not.

Hi Robert, what we have done since promotion in 2015 is an achievement. Especially with the financial constraints.

Since 2015 Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Hull, Swansea, Stoke, Cardiff and Huddersfield have all been relegated with parachute payments and not returned.

We have Norwich, Burnley, Watford, Sheff Utd and WBA still receiving parachute payments so at least two will remain. Sheff Utd and WBA probably need promotion this season or will have to cut their cloth.

I'm off to bed now. All this PL worry is giving me a headache 🙃

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

I feel you're being a bit concrete in your thinking Nutty. It doesnt have to go as far down the thought chain as actively wanting your side to lose. And can I explore that one a bit? Wouldnt you actually get bored pretty quickly if Norwich won every game? Isnt the possibility of defeat and the challenge of overcoming that what gives the game meaning?

I dont believe for one second that you are so basic that you'd happily clap every Norwich win if it meant nothing.

Think about when we played Paulton and won 7-0. Did you lose your sh*t every time we scored? Of course not, because it wasnt a huge challenge.

So thinking in pure philosophical form, you'd never wish for Norwich to never lose again would you? Wouldnt that make the games devoid of meaning? Oh great, we won again!

 

Im talking philosophically about what it is that stokes the fires as a fan, and how that is lacking at present and is more nuanced than simply winning games.

The Lambert and Farke promotions were exciting because they were outrageous and the football was great to watch. We did nothing of note in the Prem because we were hopelessly outclassed and I dont see that changing without money, such is the nature of the Premier League beast.

Perhaps there is apathy because yoyoing has become a bit boring, a bit samey. Here we are again, going back and forwards more repeatedly than Bez

Good post.

People are complex, multi-faceted and often contradictory in their thinking- nothing wrong with that, it is human. It is perfectly possible to wish with all your heart when kick off time comes that Norwich win each and every game while also being extremely ambivalent about the prize we'll get by winning all those games- namely promotion to a league where our chances of finishing 19th feel vanishingly small, let alone staying up!

Someone mentioned the term 'existential crisis' earlier in the thread and that is generally how I feel about football in general but especially for those who sit somewhere between 10th in the Premier League and 10th in the Championship but particularly those who sit in yo-yo territory- us, Bournemouth, Fulham, West Brom etc. After a few seasons quite a few fans find themselves forced to confront the question of 'what is the point?' For a club like us in the Championship it was clear- win promotion, play at the top level. But when playing at the top level becomes a soul destroying experience of beatings and humiliations handed out by teams who aren't better run than us but just have richer owners then that purpose becomes less enticing. And what if we do manage to fight gravity and remain up? It's fun for a couple of seasons but then we're again faced with 'what's the point?' And in the lower-mid Premier League the point simply becomes 'to survive' both in terms of avoiding relegation but also in financial terms. Try and save some money for the inevitable rainy day of relegation, which will come for you one day. Then back to square one.

There are some out there who can ignore the picture piece and just take each game as it comes, where the purpose is much clearer- our purpose as a club each and every time we kick off is to score more goals than the opposition over the next 90 minutes. I think that is probably easier for those who attend week in week out where the experience is the purpose as much as anything and you can enjoy the game for what it is. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

My thinking is straightforward, simple like me. Maybe basic because I don't even know what nuanced means. It's a word I've seen a lot used mainly by journos but I had never heard of it 'til a few years ago🙃  I went to Carrow Road on Saturday and wanted us to win. It's in the now, in the Championship, during September of a long hard season. I didn't go there thinking about the PL. Worrying about if we got promoted or what might happen in the future. I don't understand why on earth anyone would do that. We might all be dead. Or the PL may have eaten itself up and gone bust. And if I'm still alive and the PL is still corrupting merrily along the road to oblivion we probably won't be promoted anyway. I would say our chances are 50/50 at best and that's only because we have already got 19 points on the board. Most seasons we don't get promoted or relegated. It's just that lately it's been like busses outside Bonds where a  few have all come at once. 

I do worry that we have fans paying £600 a season who now seem to have their enjoyment of the games governed by things that may or may not happen way into the future. It's a strange old atmosphere in the ground this season. Onel warming up seemed to fire up the fans but once he was on the pitch he seemed to become part of the general apathy. I don't understand that. Perhaps he nuanced after he came on...

🙃

 

 

People are all different and probably the match day experience influences how you enjoy football. I've never been a regular attender of games, if geography allowed for it then it's something I would love to be part of my life. My brother in-law is a Man Utd season ticket holder and drives over 2 hours there and 2 hours back to watch them play. I have 4 little kids and could never justify that amount of time for football. 

Since the availability of online streams I have been able to watch almost all the games without it impacting family life, but of course that is a very different thing to actually going to games week in week out and sharing that with friends.

For me the Premier League used to mean I could watch matches, whereas the championship used to mean I couldnt. But I have a jailbroken Firestick now which means I can pretty much watch all games if I want, even championship.

I think if you go to games you very much live in the now. You have mentioned your own mortality numerous times, and if you have supported City for 50 odd years Im deducing you are at least 70. 

So I can understand and accept why we have different viewpoints. Its all the rich tapestry of life innit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What has the atmosphere been like at away games this season? I’m going to the Blackpool, Watford and Burnley games next month so hopefully it will be a bit more cheerful than this thread 🤣

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Just as I think we have some common ground this happens!

Why on earth would anyone want to change a system to punish the club they support. It's mental. It's like what other clubs fans and  the odd journo say means more to you than our club. Club's that are relegated after just one season lose the third year anyway. 

I'm afraid you are besotted with the PL. An institution rooted in debt occasionally fertilised by corruption. It will end in tears buddy. Such things always do.

Im very much a systems thinker. Im a GP and Im very frustrated in my job because I can see how the system doesnt work for patients (or Doctors) and it drives me crazy that we as a country cant make this better.

I think a number of Doctors are able to just get on with the day job, but when I see that most of my daily frustrations are a product of the system I work in, I cant just accept that and say 'it is what it is' it actively frustrates me. It's why I left hospital medicine as I was just coming home furious every day. It's slightly more bearable as a GP but I still cut a frustrated figure as if I see a system that doesnt work I want to make it better.

Im probably in the wrong job, I think I think like an engineer.

 

So similiary I see a system I think doesnt work, I will critique it from a non-partisan perspective. Regardless of my own loyalties

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I'm afraid you are besotted with the PL. An institution rooted in debt occasionally fertilised by corruption. It will end in tears buddy. Such things always do.

Not quite sure how you can make that assertion when I have consistently said right now I dont welcome Premier League football and think it is essentially broken.

If it's broken why cant we fix it for the good of all fans, who are the real currency of the game?

Because it's all about money, that's why. When it should be about the fans. Without fans football is meaningless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, I kind of watch football for the football matches. I don't sit there thinking "Oh, but if this was a Prem match we'd get beaten".

1) We're not in the Prem

2) We have no divine right to be there. Much bigger clubs than us have spent many more years not being in the top tier than we have.

3) As Nutty says, promotion isn't guaranteed any season. The biggest reason for the lack of vocal support at the ground is in my opinion due to the expectations. "Yeah, we won 6 games in a row BUT WERE THEY REALLY THAT GOOD?!"

It wasn't that long ago in football terms that we'd have been absolutely desperate just for 3 wins in a row in the Championship, let alone 6.

It's this opinion that reinforces my view that those who think "as long as we had a go at staying up in the Prem we'd be happy" - is total nonsense. Unless we stay up, then improve on 'just staying up', then improve to a top half team....it starts to get unrealistic but that's what fans do.

 

9 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, I kind of watch football for the football matches. I don't sit there thinking "Oh, but if this was a Prem match we'd get beaten".

1) We're not in the Prem

2) We have no divine right to be there.

 

See this is what I find interesting and circular about this discussion. One second Im being lambasted for having no ambition. But when I assert that our ambition SHOULD be to be a competitor in the Premier League but as we cannot hope to be without a change in ownership I dont welcome promotion I'm countered with the above.

Of course we have no divine right to be in the Premier League. But surely that should be the ambition of every club (ultimately) in the football league.

As a club we need to do what it takes to be able to become an established PL club, but we arent willing to do that. And Im afraid this comes down to the owners. Not that they are poor, but that they will not allow the club to grow by relinquishing control.

Attanasio is a massive leap forward in that respect. I expect that as Delia and Michael age, he will become the realistic option for succession. As he gains their confidence more and more and acquires more and more shares there will ultimately be a transition in power and Delia and Michael are likely to relinquish control to him as he continues to convince them that his vision for the club is compatible with their own.

 

I just see us as being totally unable to compete in the Premier League at present, so see the idea of us chasing after it as pointless. Our ultimate ambition however should always be to be a Premier League club, so as a club we need to address what is holding us back at present, and that I am afraid is the ownership model.

I have never been a Delia Out type, I have come to this conclusion in the last calendar year. The writing is on the wall for me that we have come as far as we can with the status quo. And if this is the 'best' it gets, then it sucks and Id rather just see us play games at our level until that changes. But I DO want change so we can move forward.

Im advocating championship football so our seasons arent miserable until that does change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, hogesar said:

"Yeah, we won 6 games in a row BUT WERE THEY REALLY THAT GOOD?!"

I do think a lot of that comes from the Farke decision however. Though Im not an attending fan, this is very much my mindset.

Smith's bar is the one that Farke set, because many fans still feel knifing Farke in order to 'upgrade' with Smith was a bad decision.

Smith hasnt got a free hit, he is still having to prove he is better than Farke. He has a lot to prove to fans, and so far he hasnt proved to have a better outcome in the Premier League than Farke and he has a hell of an ask to out-do Farke at Championship level.

I think a lot of fans are still p*ssed off at the Farke decision and are judging each game against what we threw away by sacking him.

Id be amazed if this is not part of the psyche.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes but no.

I've been confident before under Farke and the prem seasons didn't turn out to be that great, under Smith I fear it will be even worse, but you never know... got to get there first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, I kind of watch football for the football matches. I don't sit there thinking "Oh, but if this was a Prem match we'd get beaten".

1) We're not in the Prem

2) We have no divine right to be there. Much bigger clubs than us have spent many more years not being in the top tier than we have.

3) As Nutty says, promotion isn't guaranteed any season. The biggest reason for the lack of vocal support at the ground is in my opinion due to the expectations. "Yeah, we won 6 games in a row BUT WERE THEY REALLY THAT GOOD?!"

It wasn't that long ago in football terms that we'd have been absolutely desperate just for 3 wins in a row in the Championship, let alone 6.

It's this opinion that reinforces my view that those who think "as long as we had a go at staying up in the Prem we'd be happy" - is total nonsense. Unless we stay up, then improve on 'just staying up', then improve to a top half team....it starts to get unrealistic but that's what fans do.

Typical Hoggy, talking the club down again.

Can be summed up as follows:

City do have a divine right to be in L1, but not the EPL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Big Vince said:

Typical Hoggy, talking the club down again.

Can be summed up as follows:

City do have a divine right to be in L1, but not the EPL.

You know me Vince, super negative to combat some of that insane optimism you spread throughout the forum.

  • Haha 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...