All those who think Brentford are….

[Badger 2,405]

18 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

What Brentford are doing  frustrates me because when they went up they immediately understood what the PL is all about these days and signed powerful, fast players, played on the counter attack and focused on set pieces. If you watch MOTD you'll see that almost all goals in that league come from set pieces and players running at opposition at speed on the counter. All teams also get the ball forward as quickly as possible, make use of longer passes often to stretch teams, it's the complete opposite of what we always try to do. 

We should have learned that lesson after our first season but when we got promoted again we signed more slow, weak, small, powderpuff players who's strength is short, slow,  pass and move football. The signing of Gilmour just typified it to me, it seems every other club knows what the modern PL is but we always seem to think when we get promoted we're going to be playing in La Liga or Serie A and will be able to play slow, patient football and it's infuriating to me. 

I agree. We have to be more pragmatic IF we get promoted. We have tested to destruction the idea that a team like us can play  Farkeball and stay up. The signings we made were designed to fit into this model.

The teams of comparable size that have done it have largely been highly pragmatic, especially in  the earlier seasons - Stoke, Palace, Brighton. If we do go up we might have to consider something similar (or hopefully a more attacking variant of it).

The appointment of a set piece coach suggests that they may already be thinking along those lines?

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

7 hours ago, Badger said:

I agree. We have to be more pragmatic IF we get promoted. We have tested to destruction the idea that a team like us can play  Farkeball and stay up. The signings we made were designed to fit into this model.

The teams of comparable size that have done it have largely been highly pragmatic, especially in  the earlier seasons - Stoke, Palace, Brighton. If we do go up we might have to consider something similar (or hopefully a more attacking variant of it).

The appointment of a set piece coach suggests that they may already be thinking along those lines?

Yeah we don't have to go full Pulis or Hughton-ball when we get promoted but there are some core principals that are non-negotiable as a weaker side in that league and we have to adhere to them until you become established for a few years and can afford better players. Brighton and Leicester are good examples, they didn't get promoted or stay up their first year by playing the football they play now. They were very hard working teams who countered well, filled their team with pace and played on the counter attack and had a threat from set pieces, they also got the ball forward quickly instead of building from the back. I see signs under Smith that we're capable of that, the chance that Hugill mussed yesterday was a great example of how to get the ball forward quickly without aimlessly hoofing it, 2 or 3 long accurate passes followed by a through ball to an exposed defence, that's what PL teams do. They don't pass the ball between backwards to their CB's when they win it back and hold onto it for so long that the opposition can get back in shape and make it impossible to score, they get the ball, look up, be brave and go for the jugular any chance they get.

I can see from us having a set piece coach that we're learning slowly and we're trying new things, but while we have a big team by Championship standards I still don't think we'd have much of a threat if we get promoted again because this team is still sub-standard physically by PL standards. It's not just about height, you need players who can jump and out muscle their opponents to win the first ball on set pieces. While right now we've got big players who aren't athletic and fast  players who aren't strong and if we go up we'll need a few who are both to cause teams problems. For me we already have enough technical quality with the likes of Pukki, Dowell, Nunez etc, promoted teams usually have a physical and athletic team that works around one or two technical players so we'll need to sign some physical, fast players to fill out the bulk of our first 11 to let players like Pukki and Nunez shine. 

It's a good position to be in, usually if you're shopping abroad like we do good technical players cost more, but as we already have enough of that in the squad already for me we can focus on undervalued physical players from foreign leagues who have to be hard working and not necessarily that good with the ball at their feet so financially it should be achievable.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Christoph Stiepermann

[Badger 2,405]

9 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Yeah we don't have to go full Pulis or Hughton-ball when we get promoted but there are some core principals that are non-negotiable as a weaker side in that league and we have to adhere to them until you become established for a few years and can afford better players. Brighton and Leicester are good examples, they didn't get promoted or stay up their first year by playing the football they play now. They were very hard working teams who countered well, filled their team with pace and played on the counter attack and had a threat from set pieces, they also got the ball forward quickly instead of building from the back. I see signs under Smith that we're capable of that, the chance that Hugill mussed yesterday was a great example of how to get the ball forward quickly without aimlessly hoofing it, 2 or 3 long accurate passes followed by a through ball to an exposed defence, that's what PL teams do. They don't pass the ball between backwards to their CB's when they win it back and hold onto it for so long that the opposition can get back in shape and make it impossible to score, they get the ball, look up, be brave and go for the jugular any chance they get.

I can see from us having a set piece coach that we're learning slowly and we're trying new things, but while we have a big team by Championship standards I still don't think we'd have much of a threat if we get promoted again because this team is still sub-standard physically by PL standards. It's not just about height, you need players who can jump and out muscle their opponents to win the first ball on set pieces. While right now we've got big players who aren't athletic and fast  players who aren't strong and if we go up we'll need a few who are both to cause teams problems. For me we already have enough technical quality with the likes of Pukki, Dowell, Nunez etc, promoted teams usually have a physical and athletic team that works around one or two technical players so we'll need to sign some physical, fast players to fill out the bulk of our first 11 to let players like Pukki and Nunez shine. 

It's a good position to be in, usually if you're shopping abroad like we do good technical players cost more, but as we already have enough of that in the squad already for me we can focus on undervalued physical players from foreign leagues who have to be hard working and not necessarily that good with the ball at their feet so financially it should be achievable.

I agree that you don't have to be full Pulis etc, but as you suggest teams that have stayed up have tended to get the ball forwards very quickly and defended very solidly.

Two things of interest (to me, anyway) to this are:

1. Our defence. When we were promoted under Farke the second time, our xGa was very poor - we relied upon the fact that we could outscore our opponents. Of course, this failed in the PL. Even the first time, our xGa against was not good for a promoted team. It will be interesting to see as the season develops if there are any signs of us being stronger defensively, which is a key component of our future prospects. The xGa has been a pretty good indicator in recent years - table (below) courtesy of BYG's twitter feed

2. Physicality from corners etc. I am pretty sure that they are aware of this deficiency as well - we already have the capability (fully fit) of putting out a more robust team physically than last season and I am sure that they would wish to add to it. (Hanley, Omobamidele, Hayden, Sargent, McLean, Idah are a good start and I imagine that they might wish to add to this - tbh, I suspect that they wouldn't be averse to having to replace full backs on both sides with something more physical - I'm pretty sure that a good offer for either Aarons or Giannoulis would have been welcomed.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Badger
Added table + a comment and corrected two mistakes

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

The irony for me is that when we were promoted under Lambert, the next season in the PL we played a very direct counter-attacking style, we'd try to win the ball high up and create chances immediately, but whereever we won the ball, we were looking for direct long passes to create chances as soon as possible.  Not hoofball - the passes were always directed, even with GH up front we didn't generally just hit it long and hope.  Our win away against Spurs was a perfect example.

 

Since then I agree many teams have identified this, and also the big change in the Prem has been the increased physicality of players especially in midfield. 

The flip side to this is Prem teams that lose the ball are adept at niggly tactical fouls in areas where they won't get a yellow card but will stop the opposition developing a quick attack and allow you to recover your shape.

The reality also is that if you play this style, you'll get a few years in the Prem but you won't be there forever.  Just look at Stoke, WBA etc - before too long you'll have a bad season and you'll be relegated.

It's a dilemma for me, is this a style I really want Norwich to be playing ?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 13/08/2022 at 18:38, dylanisabaddog said:

Man Utd are getting found out. I can't think of one of their players who would get in a genuine top 4 team. 

When you're 4-0 down to Brentford and you bring on McTominay you have a problem 

Looks like they are in the top and have won 4 in a row. 

[king canary 7,604]

18 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

What Brentford are doing  frustrates me because when they went up they immediately understood what the PL is all about these days and signed powerful, fast players, played on the counter attack and focused on set pieces. If you watch MOTD you'll see that almost all goals in that league come from set pieces and players running at opposition at speed on the counter. All teams also get the ball forward as quickly as possible, make use of longer passes often to stretch teams, it's the complete opposite of what we always try to do. 

We should have learned that lesson after our first season but when we got promoted again we signed more slow, weak, small, powderpuff players who's strength is short, slow,  pass and move football. The signing of Gilmour just typified it to me, it seems every other club knows what the modern PL is but we always seem to think when we get promoted we're going to be playing in La Liga or Serie A and will be able to play slow, patient football and it's infuriating to me. 

I think we did kind of try this last season just not whole heartedly. 

Sargent and Rashica for instance were not Farke ball signings. Rashica is a winger who likes to dribble and cross rather than play short passes around the box and through balls in behind. Sargent's strengths are around his physicality and his work rate. Both of those signings suggested a desire to play more of a counter attacking, pressing style. Having said that, signings like Williams, Gilmour and PLM suggested a continued desire to play the kind of slow and patient build up we knew under Farke.

Overall the strategy seemed very confused and it seems by moving on from Gilmour and PLM to players like Nunez and Hayden suggests us going more 'all in' on the idea of being able to be more direct and press teams. 

[aBee 151]

8 hours ago, It's Character Forming said:

The irony for me is that when we were promoted under Lambert, the next season in the PL we played a very direct counter-attacking style, we'd try to win the ball high up and create chances immediately, but whereever we won the ball, we were looking for direct long passes to create chances as soon as possible.  Not hoofball - the passes were always directed, even with GH up front we didn't generally just hit it long and hope.  Our win away against Spurs was a perfect example.

 

Since then I agree many teams have identified this, and also the big change in the Prem has been the increased physicality of players especially in midfield. 

The flip side to this is Prem teams that lose the ball are adept at niggly tactical fouls in areas where they won't get a yellow card but will stop the opposition developing a quick attack and allow you to recover your shape.

The reality also is that if you play this style, you'll get a few years in the Prem but you won't be there forever.  Just look at Stoke, WBA etc - before too long you'll have a bad season and you'll be relegated.

It's a dilemma for me, is this a style I really want Norwich to be playing ?

Funnily the team last season who focused most on niggly fouls in safe areas of midfield to break up play that I remember seeing was Man City. Fernandinho was an absolute (frustrating!) master at it. 
 

I think the PL is in many ways less physical than the Championship. In the Championship defensive/midfield players will challenge and get their foot in quickly. If you are more skilful that them you can evade or execute a no look pass. In the PL they’ll get tight but the focus is more on the team closing off your passing options to force you to have to beat the man rather than just skip over their challenge or to be much more accurate at much harder passes and have enough movement for receivers to find space. That demands more pace and agility all round. As well as the team being very well drilled to move and control space while having an understanding of where everyone will be going. The thing that elevates beyond that is looking up early and being able to assess the pitch geography- it was the thing that Eriksen did (does!) and I’d never seen us have someone be able to do. It made him look like he had more time than anyone else. I’ve noticed a lot more looking up now even before receiving so longer balls to beat a press are very much more rarely aimless. 
 

Having scored 9 goals in 2 home games while averaging 32% possession it doesn’t feel like watching Pulis era Stoke or a style to feel sad about having replaced more crisp short passing. 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

On 13/08/2022 at 18:50, TeemuVanBasten said:

Its a valid question, their recruitment is on point 

Didn't sell their Talisman to huy sub standard replacements...weird bunch