All those who think Brentford are….

[All the Germans 1,075]

35 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

The best thing Brentford did was getting shot of Dean Smith.

They started brilliantly last season too, that's so important when you're looking to avoid relegation from the EPL.

I don't think they "got shot of him". He left. To go to another team.

[aBee 151]

5 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

I don't think they "got shot of him". He left. To go to another team.

Yes, Smith got poached by Villa and took them up. Thomas Frank’s first ten games as Bees Head Coach gave W1 D1 L8. At 3-0 down at home v Swansea after about 20 mins following some horrific attempts to pass out from the back even I was shouting for him to be sacked (ended 3-2 and we were unfortunate not to get a point). Luckily the club trusted in the process. In retrospect I doubt Smith would have taken us up had he stayed. 

[hogesar 9,658]

2 minutes ago, aBee said:

Yes, Smith got poached by Villa and took them up. Thomas Frank’s first ten games as Bees Head Coach gave W1 D1 L8. At 3-0 down at home v Swansea after about 20 mins following some horrific attempts to pass out from the back even I was shouting for him to be sacked (ended 3-2 and we were unfortunate not to get a point). Luckily the club trusted in the process. In retrospect I doubt Smith would have taken us up had he stayed. 

Such are the fine lines in football,  I remember the poor start Frank made with you.

As for wishing we were Brentford .. considering their history and relevant size I imagine there are about 40 clubs wishing they were Brentford comparatively. 

I also read a book which went in depth to Brentfords scouting model and its way more data and stats driven. According to our fans on here, its not the way to sign players..

[All the Germans 1,075]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I also read a book which went in depth to Brentfords scouting model and its way more data and stats driven. According to our fans on here, its not the way to sign players..

You just don't seem to get it. Our fans are far too fickle to be consistent. Brentford do well, we want to be Brentford. We use stats and do badly, that's the problem. Brentford use stats and do well, that's what we should be doing.  Remember when Idah scored a hattrick in a meaningless away cup game (I was there, for a change) and he was the second coming? Now he's useless. We don't do nuance or reason, we just jump from one sensationalist position (we're finishing top four in the Premier League) to another. Join us, it's easier when you stop using your brain and just shout a lot.

[aBee 151]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Such are the fine lines in football,  I remember the poor start Frank made with you.

As for wishing we were Brentford .. considering their history and relevant size I imagine there are about 40 clubs wishing they were Brentford comparatively. 

I also read a book which went in depth to Brentfords scouting model and its way more data and stats driven. According to our fans on here, its not the way to sign players..

I think for it to work you need very good people and absolute confidence in them top to bottom. Lurking on here I think you intend a similar model and have in truth had more resources available to implement it but Webber is a weak link in that few seem to trust in his judgement on the human element  in interpreting the numbers. It’s notable how supremely relaxed most of our fanbase is when a top player is sold because there’s full confidence, borne out by experience, that the replacements will be better. Most of the young recruits are players we’ve been speaking to the clubs of 12-18 months before buying. Hull were midway through a season in L1 when our DoFs first took their previous owner out to dinner to talk about Lewis-Potter. 
 

Webber seems to have struck it lucky and dined out off of Buendia and Pukki but without a pipeline of other good players being sold for profit and replaced by better at least in a timescale that aligned with what you need on the pitch immediately. Do you have anyone that sits alongside him to drive a broader playing philosophy or is that something that is expected to come from the manager?  

[Ulfotto 632]

4 hours ago, All the Germans said:

You just don't seem to get it. Our fans are far too fickle to be consistent. Brentford do well, we want to be Brentford. We use stats and do badly, that's the problem. Brentford use stats and do well, that's what we should be doing.  Remember when Idah scored a hattrick in a meaningless away cup game (I was there, for a change) and he was the second coming? Now he's useless. We don't do nuance or reason, we just jump from one sensationalist position (we're finishing top four in the Premier League) to another. Join us, it's easier when you stop using your brain and just shout a lot.

I get this but that’s football isn’t it and it’s the polarising reality of life lived under social media spotlight. Throw the fact the last four seasons have been Amazing, Awful, Amazing, Awful it’s almost part of our DNA these days to be either famine or feast.

Fair play to Brentford but in reality it’s just what a club owned by a rich owner looks like these days. Ditto Brighton. Rich people are not daft. I would still say they are pretty good bet to be relegated this year but seem to have a happy knack of playing teams at the right time. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Ulfotto

[aBee 151]

1 hour ago, Ulfotto said:

I get this but that’s football isn’t it and it’s the polarising reality of life lived under social media spotlight. Throw the fact the last four seasons have been Amazing, Awful, Amazing, Awful it’s almost part of our DNA these days to be either famine or feast.

Fair play to Brentford but in reality it’s just what a club owned by a rich owner looks like these days. Ditto Brighton. Rich people are not daft. I would still say they are pretty good bet to be relegated this year but seem to have a happy knack of playing teams at the right time. 

Benham is wealthy but his net spend over a decade is about £80m, pretty much the cost of building the new stadium. On the playing side prior to promotion player trading generated about £100m profit. Last season we made a profit of about £50m by only spending about £30m on transfers and outperforming the budgeted 20th place. At the moment our net spend this summer is about £45m. It’s not megabucks more than you had if at all in and going up to the PL. You probably didn’t spend substantially less on loan fees and wages for Gilmour and Williams than we paid in the year for Ajer who you decided against buying. 
 

I think some Norwich fans have been gaslighted into thinking the club is too poor to compete by the fact that Delia has no money of her own to pump in while ignoring having had 2 PL seasons in the last 3 years, a parachute payment the other and this year as well as money for Buendia and a ground with a higher capacity and corporate income,  and no club in the top two divisions within about 100 miles to compete with for fans. You’re plenty wealthy enough to compete without spending like Forest or Fulham. 
 

Maybe we’ll go down but I think there are probably three worse teams this season. But we did play Man U at the right time because they really were the worst team I’ve seen since we beat Hull 5-1 away in 2020 just after they sold Bowen and their players ought to have been up to showing more than one that went down to L1. 

[Ulfotto 632]

Norwich have made a total mess of the last two promotions. But the Brentford PR machine is really something it’s basically rich guy buys club and totally transforms with massive investment. End of. It’s a bit Bournemouth, Brighton, Wolves etc…

[aBee 151]

10 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

Norwich have made a total mess of the last two promotions. But the Brentford PR machine is really something it’s basically rich guy buys club and totally transforms with massive investment. End of. It’s a bit Bournemouth, Brighton, Wolves etc…

You’ve had and spent way more money over the last ten years or so. Back in 2016 you barely blinked to outbid us on Canos and happily offloaded him to us the next window as our then biggest ever transfer at the inflated price you paid. 

[Mason 47 1,379]

@aBee @hogesar not that I want to hijack the thread, but am I right in saying that Brentford judge manager performance partially/ primarily on xG? 😇

[hogesar 9,658]

11 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

@aBee @hogesar not that I want to hijack the thread, but am I right in saying that Brentford judge manager performance partially/ primarily on xG? 😇

Yeah, or at least the book I read said so, primarily because the owner of Brentford made a lot of money by a combination of collecting and selling xG data and betting based on it too. No idea if it's the same current owner, Bee will know that!

[aBee 151]

24 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

@aBee @hogesar not that I want to hijack the thread, but am I right in saying that Brentford judge manager performance partially/ primarily on xG? 😇

It’s a bit more sophisticated than that but it’s on team/player performances (including xG), cultural and personal fit etc rather than results/league table. So Marinus Dijkhuisen got sacked after 8 games (W2 D2 L4) more for the manner of the performances and his attitude to fitness and training (in the Dutch way he thought it should build over the season rather than have everyone at top fitness from first game) and Frank (W1 D1 L8) was never under threat. In both that run and the pre-Eriksen run of iirc one draw and 7 defeats the underlying performances were (Southampton away aside) good. Losing 2-0 at the Etihad gave us as many points as you and Leeds got there but on the basis of competing and making two smallish errors which were ruthlessly exploited rather than just being comprehensively outplayed for 90 minutes. 
 

This works both ways. Many were amazed Benham didn’t extend Warburton’s contract after 14-15 and indeed decided this in the February of a season where we made the Championship play offs. Warburton simply didn’t buy into the use of stats as being anywhere near as important as his own skill as the manager who took us up for the first time in over 20 years. Subsequent careers for him and BFC tell the tale  

The belief, based on evidence over long time periods, is that things like xG give a good indicator of underlying quality. Football is a low scoring game so the stats have to be taken in the context of unlikely things sometimes happening game to game but that over a season they usually happen both ways and team results regress to the mean of team performances. Our DoF said you can’t make a sensible assessment of most players until they’ve played 25-35 games and it’ll be similar with managers unless there’s something bigger like just not fitting. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by aBee

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

Another cracking result.

And Toney now being touted for England. 

Fair play. 

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

4 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Another cracking result.

And Toney now being touted for England. 

Fair play. 

I’m rather glad I made him my FPL captain this week 🙂….

[Rivvo 257]

On 14/08/2022 at 20:18, aBee said:

It’s a bit more sophisticated than that but it’s on team/player performances (including xG), cultural and personal fit etc rather than results/league table. So Marinus Dijkhuisen got sacked after 8 games (W2 D2 L4) more for the manner of the performances and his attitude to fitness and training (in the Dutch way he thought it should build over the season rather than have everyone at top fitness from first game) and Frank (W1 D1 L8) was never under threat. In both that run and the pre-Eriksen run of iirc one draw and 7 defeats the underlying performances were (Southampton away aside) good. Losing 2-0 at the Etihad gave us as many points as you and Leeds got there but on the basis of competing and making two smallish errors which were ruthlessly exploited rather than just being comprehensively outplayed for 90 minutes. 
 

This works both ways. Many were amazed Benham didn’t extend Warburton’s contract after 14-15 and indeed decided this in the February of a season where we made the Championship play offs. Warburton simply didn’t buy into the use of stats as being anywhere near as important as his own skill as the manager who took us up for the first time in over 20 years. Subsequent careers for him and BFC tell the tale  

The belief, based on evidence over long time periods, is that things like xG give a good indicator of underlying quality. Football is a low scoring game so the stats have to be taken in the context of unlikely things sometimes happening game to game but that over a season they usually happen both ways and team results regress to the mean of team performances. Our DoF said you can’t make a sensible assessment of most players until they’ve played 25-35 games and it’ll be similar with managers unless there’s something bigger like just not fitting. 

Thanks for the insight, by the way I think Warburton probably posts on here 😉

Edited September 3, 2022 by Rivvo

[lake district canary 4,531]

Toney is the main reason they are doing so well. Devastating form and ability. Remove him from the team and they would be struggling.

[PockthorpePete 331]

On 13/08/2022 at 18:31, TheBaldOne66 said:

One season wonders, is that still the case?

 

Or can people now just accept what’s gone on at NCFC for the last 13 months is the reflection of a badly organised club?

is that still the case?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

Only the Norwich doom and gloom squad could start a miserable thread like this after a 3-0 win and the fifth win on the trot that has taken us top of the table. 

Go and support Brentford if you're unhappy; it's your right as consumers to shop around for what you find most satisfying. 

[Jimmy Raggatip 59]

it was started weeks ago

[chicken 2,624]

3 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Another cracking result.

And Toney now being touted for England. 

Fair play. 

Has to be the best bit of business Brentford have done over the summer - keeping hold of Toney. As long as they have him they have a consistent goal scorer. A bit like Bournemouth with Wilson.

If he plays for England and does well then as well, a big move could be on in the next couple of transfer windows. 

[CDMullins 436]

This is a great read on Brentford...

 

https://twitter.com/JoePompliano/status/1400245761854652417?s=08

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

Gambling. Boooo. 
 

**** Brentford. 

[aBee 151]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Only the Norwich doom and gloom squad could start a miserable thread like this after a 3-0 win and the fifth win on the trot that has taken us top of the table. 

Go and support Brentford if you're unhappy; it's your right as consumers to shop around for what you find most satisfying. 

I am surprised there are people posting on this thread after you went top! It was a cracking game for us yesterday. I’m glad I wasn’t in a Bees shirt though after encountering four coachloads of Leeds fans on my way back at Northampton services!

I felt a bit sad hearing the Norwich fan on 606 wondering what the point was when you’d get destroyed again in the PL. Savage and Sutton did say we showed it could be done! Maybe Smith’s more pragmatic game will give you the basis to add quality next season to a solid set up and stop history repeating. Bournemouth beating Forest show that spending £150m and having a highly rated manager aren’t the only recipe for promoted clubs (and despite their 9-0 loss a week ago they’re on 7 points now). 

Obviously a stellar game for Toney and it’d be a challenge to replace him. But Wissa has shown he’s a deadly natural finisher and would be most likely moved into that central spot. 
 

 

[TheBaldOne66 682]

14 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Only the Norwich doom and gloom squad could start a miserable thread like this after a 3-0 win and the fifth win on the trot that has taken us top of the table. 

Go and support Brentford if you're unhappy; it's your right as consumers to shop around for what you find most satisfying. 

Have we gone back in time then? As this was originally posted on 13th August ffs!

And if you recall, we had a bad start but things are better now yes, but maybe, just maybe, you could actually look at things closer before commenting, but that may be a little difficult for you it seems? 

[BigFish 1,986]

9 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Have we gone back in time then? As this was originally posted on 13th August ffs!

And if you recall, we had a bad start but things are better now yes, but maybe, just maybe, you could actually look at things closer before commenting, but that may be a little difficult for you it seems? 

The OP looked very stupid on the 13th August and hasn't aged well.

Still we shall see more such wisdom when we next drop a point.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

14 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Toney is the main reason they are doing so well. Devastating form and ability. Remove him from the team and they would be struggling.

Remove Pukki from our team last season…😬

[TheBaldOne66 682]

8 minutes ago, BigFish said:

The OP looked very stupid on the 13th August and hasn't aged well.

Still we shall see more such wisdom when we next drop a point.

Grow up ffs, or are you one who never sees anything wrong?

You thought our first 3 games were great then did you? Yes I expect you did 🙈 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

What Brentford are doing  frustrates me because when they went up they immediately understood what the PL is all about these days and signed powerful, fast players, played on the counter attack and focused on set pieces. If you watch MOTD you'll see that almost all goals in that league come from set pieces and players running at opposition at speed on the counter. All teams also get the ball forward as quickly as possible, make use of longer passes often to stretch teams, it's the complete opposite of what we always try to do. 

We should have learned that lesson after our first season but when we got promoted again we signed more slow, weak, small, powderpuff players who's strength is short, slow,  pass and move football. The signing of Gilmour just typified it to me, it seems every other club knows what the modern PL is but we always seem to think when we get promoted we're going to be playing in La Liga or Serie A and will be able to play slow, patient football and it's infuriating to me. 

[corbs 147]

I’m not bothered by Brentford stats, ours don’t look too bad - for now. 

[Badger 2,405]

On 14/08/2022 at 20:18, aBee said:

Our DoF said you can’t make a sensible assessment of most players until they’ve played 25-35 games and it’ll be similar with managers unless there’s something bigger like just not fitting. 

25 to 35 games! Many of the football experts on here can judge in 25 to 35 minutes.

Indeed a large proportion of them can judge the player before he has even joined us. I think that they could teach your DoF a thing or two about choosing players! 😉