The Cost Of Living Crisis

[canarydan23 4,060]

12 hours ago, Pyro Pete said:

The EnoughlsEnough campaign has just announced its Norwich rally.

This Tuesday, 6 September from 7pm in Epic Studios.

Full details: http://wesayenough.co.uk/events

I consider myself left-wing but even I would rather cheese-grate my **** than attend this.

Wow, n-u-t-s-a-c-k is on the banned words list, that is thorough,

Edited September 5, 2022 by canarydan23

[Canary Wundaboy 1,358]

Had a bloke over to quote us on some solar panels this morning. Based on current electricity costs and the increase from October, they’ll pay themselves off in 5 years and not cost me a penny in additional monthly costs as the cost each month of the finance on the panels (over 5 years) is actually less than the savings on my energy bill each month. No brainer.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

8 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Had a bloke over to quote us on some solar panels this morning. Based on current electricity costs and the increase from October, they’ll pay themselves off in 5 years and not cost me a penny in additional monthly costs as the cost each month of the finance on the panels (over 5 years) is actually less than the savings on my energy bill each month. No brainer.

Oh hadn’t considered monthly payments option… absolute no brainer then! I put an enquiry in last week but can’t see it being answered quickly!

[sonyc 5,491]

9 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Had a bloke over to quote us on some solar panels this morning. Based on current electricity costs and the increase from October, they’ll pay themselves off in 5 years and not cost me a penny in additional monthly costs as the cost each month of the finance on the panels (over 5 years) is actually less than the savings on my energy bill each month. No brainer.

 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,358]

2 minutes ago, Tetteys Jig said:

Oh hadn’t considered monthly payments option… absolute no brainer then! I put an enquiry in last week but can’t see it being answered quickly!

I’d previously dismissed solar panels based on cost and time to pay back but with electricity prices where they are right now it’s a much easier sell.

[Pyro Pete 1,889]

58 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I consider myself left-wing but even I would rather cheese-grate my **** than attend this.

Wow, n-u-t-s-a-c-k is on the banned words list, that is thorough,

Yeah, better to sit in front of a keyboard and do nothing. That's going to help people.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, Pyro Pete said:

Yeah, better to sit in front of a keyboard and do nothing. That's going to help people.

Whereas attending that will help people?!

You've got people who fight bravely to eradicate women's sports and argue that lesbians refusing to sleep with people because they have a penis is transphobic, oh, and a Putin-sympathiser and staunch Brexiteer who saw fit to tell us all that there are two sides to every war with regards to the Ukraine conflict.

Funnily enough, whilst the sixth form politics crew exchange pronouns at Epic studio tomorrow, I'll be spending my evening at a manager's briefing, largely focused on the grassroots U12 heading ban, as a mandatory activity in my voluntary role as a kids football coach, a role that probably does more to help people than sitting through a diatribe from a man who hates immigration and likes to visit Russian uber-nationalist misogynists.

You are right though, it is better to sit in front of a keyboard and do nothing than listen to those types of people. Sadly, I won't have that opportunity.

[canarydan23 4,060]

19 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I’d previously dismissed solar panels based on cost and time to pay back but with electricity prices where they are right now it’s a much easier sell.

What sort of indication did they give you about timescales? I've heard mention of 9 month backlogs.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

What sort of indication did they give you about timescales? I've heard mention of 9 month backlogs.

Yep, global shortage of PV panels and inverters because, surprise surprise - nowadays they are nearly all made in China.

The UK solar industry (growing very rapidly at the time) was effectively killed off ten years ago by the Tories - 'our greenest government ever' apparently 😂😂😂

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

Yes that’s hilarious isn’t it! Demonstrators starting in some EU countries, which will lead to split on the unity on this war! Destabilising the EU is happening now, so there comes a point at which action needs to happen, as there will be more countries than just Hungary linking up with Russia for supplies and adding pressure on a fragile EU! There are far too many far right groups still alive jumping on this to organise mass demonstrations which with hardship lead to more sensible people getting caught up in it!

Don't really agree with this Indy.

Putin has now played his expected 'ace' - NS1 won't reopen until EU sanctions lifted (Putin) and the EU has rolled with it. Germany will have 2 (with 3 more to follow) LNG terminals open by end of this year and if I heard correctly reserves are already 80% full.

Simply NS1 can now be decommissioned as it will never be needed again. That's the green dividend to Putin's actions. I'd start on that tomorrow as by the time this winter has past and Russia returned to the 21st century Europe will not need nor care about Russian gas. That can only hit Putin in pocket.

[Indy 3,283]

25 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Don't really agree with this Indy.

Putin has now played his expected 'ace' - NS1 won't reopen until EU sanctions lifted (Putin) and the EU has rolled with it. Germany will have 2 (with 3 more to follow) LNG terminals open by end of this year and if I heard correctly reserves are already 80% full.

Simply NS1 can now be decommissioned as it will never be needed again. That's the green dividend to Putin's actions. I'd start on that tomorrow as by the time this winter has past and Russia returned to the 21st century Europe will not need nor care about Russian gas. That can only hit Putin in pocket.

YF in Prague and in Bratislava they had big turn outs with anti government demonstrations, demanding a more neutral stance in the Ukrainian war,  there’s more unrest coming as it hits this winter. As I said it’s easy to just see things as some do on here as black and white but the reality is long term suffering will lead to more people in Central Europe to become more anti war, wanting a quick end to it! As I’ve said from the start Ukraine will not drive out Putins advances, it will probably end in negotiations to divide Ukraine or an all out war. This long war game isn’t going to unite EU it’ll end up dividing countries as it is starting in Prague. Time will tell….

PS now we have the spectre of Truss, the one leader who has no issues to follow Boris with her ill timed stupid public comments which have more divisive outcomes, we need to work with France not become bickering neighbours. We’re not part of the EU and those illegal immigrants trying to get here aren’t French problem anymore, they’re ours. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Indy

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

YF in Prague and in Bratislava they had big turn outs with anti government demonstrations, demanding a more neutral stance in the Ukrainian war,  there’s more unrest coming as it hits this winter. As I said it’s easy to just see things as some do on here as black and white but the reality is long term suffering will lead to more people in Central Europe to become more anti war, wanting a quick end to it! As I’ve said from the start Ukraine will not drive out Putins advances, it will end in negotiations to divide Ukraine or an all out war. This long war game isn’t going to unite EU it’ll end up dividing countries as it is starting in Prague.

Apart from the obvious lies that the financial crisis is because of the conflict in Ukraine, the effect on us is relatively less complex. That is why we can support Ukraine. But only morally and financially. We are not committing anything else.

But nations with a lot more to lose and closer to the conflict, also with memories of the Soviet regime, may well be losing faith in the Ukranian cause. Its understandable.

I wonder how long the nation will support Ukraine if the CoL crisis deepens and we find out a billion pounds has been sent again and the rest of Europe does very little?

[Indy 3,283]

11 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Apart from the obvious lies that the financial crisis is because of the conflict in Ukraine, the effect on us is relatively less complex. That is why we can support Ukraine. But only morally and financially. We are not committing anything else.

But nations with a lot more to lose and closer to the conflict, also with memories of the Soviet regime, may well be losing faith in the Ukranian cause. Its understandable.

I wonder how long the nation will support Ukraine if the CoL crisis deepens and we find out a billion pounds has been sent again and the rest of Europe does very little?

Indeed KG, we sit here on our island and think it’s the same everywhere. There’s a large swathe of European population who aren’t as westernised as we want to think. Lots don’t trust the US who are even further away and as some point out making money on the inflated gas, oil and grain prices! They can afford to throw a few billion dollars at it as they carry on getting paid for the over priced commodities they have. I can say that Biden’s comments to tell governments what they should be doing has really got some Czech’s into anti US mindset, which unfortunately the far right and communists fuel to start this unrest! It needs to be culled quickly in my opinion before it spreads into other bigger countries like Germany and Italy!

Edited September 5, 2022 by Indy

[Barbe bleu 814]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

The UK solar industry (growing very rapidly at the time) was effectively killed off ten years ago by the Tories - 'our greenest government ever' apparently 😂😂😂

I'd be interested in the basis on which you say this

I know that you believe what you say, and i could well believe what you claim too ....but there is always a hint of 'confirmation bias' with your thoughts.

Wikipedia suggests that the UK was never really a player in the manufacturing game.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaics_companies

 

 

[1902 1,167]

20 hours ago, CrankyCanary said:

Fukushima?

Was built on a coastline prone to Tsunamis and then advice about the risk of a Tsunami was ignored. 

Nuclear is safe if positioned well, maintained well and risks are properly mitigated. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to a fairly wide selection of nuclear power stations around the world. 

Though interestingly, hydroelectric dam failures have been far more deadly than nuclear incidents.

[Indy 3,283]

7 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Was built on a coastline prone to Tsunamis and then advice about the risk of a Tsunami was ignored. 

Nuclear is safe if positioned well, maintained well and risks are properly mitigated. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to a fairly wide selection of nuclear power stations around the world. 

Though interestingly, hydroelectric dam failures have been far more deadly than nuclear incidents.

I’m pro nuclear power, but I’m not sure your statement about nuclear incidents god knows how many died due to Chernobyl!

[SteveN8458 61]

4 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Was built on a coastline prone to Tsunamis and then advice about the risk of a Tsunami was ignored. 

Nuclear is safe if positioned well, maintained well and risks are properly mitigated. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to a fairly wide selection of nuclear power stations around the world. 

Though interestingly, hydroelectric dam failures have been far more deadly than nuclear incidents.

The problem with Fukushima was they put the emergency generators/pumps below ground. So when the Tsunami overwhelmed the defenses they were stuffed!!

My fear with nuclear is the potential for escalation, if one went bang! in a big way how far would the blast wave extend?

then the fallout?

As was pointed out to me earlier. The UK processes nuclear waste from around the word into new usable fuel. But this can only be done a finite amount of times until there is high level waste which has to be dealt with by encasing in glass, which is in turn put into vessels and these vessels are stored in water ponds above ground at Sellafield!!!

Why in ponds above ground? because not one regional council will allow underground storage in their area.

[1902 1,167]

7 minutes ago, Indy said:

I’m pro nuclear power, but I’m not sure your statement about nuclear incidents god knows how many died due to Chernobyl!

Even if we assumed the highest figure for Chernobyl, it's still less than the most catastrophic dam failures.

The Banqiao Dam killed 25,000 through flooding when it burst, Machchhu was a minimum 1800, but was probably a lot higher. 

[1902 1,167]

4 minutes ago, SteveN8458 said:

The problem with Fukushima was they put the emergency generators/pumps below ground. So when the Tsunami overwhelmed the defenses they were stuffed!!

My fear with nuclear is the potential for escalation, if one went bang! in a big way how far would the blast wave extend?

then the fallout?

As was pointed out to me earlier. The UK processes nuclear waste from around the word into new usable fuel. But this can only be done a finite amount of times until there is high level waste which has to be dealt with by encasing in glass, which is in turn put into vessels and these vessels are stored in water ponds above ground at Sellafield!!!

Why in ponds above ground? because not one regional council will allow underground storage in their area.

Absolutely, which is the problem.

I'm pro responsible nuclear. That's in surprisingly short supply.

[Indy 3,283]

2 minutes ago, SteveN8458 said:

The problem with Fukushima was they put the emergency generators/pumps below ground. So when the Tsunami overwhelmed the defenses they were stuffed!!

My fear with nuclear is the potential for escalation, if one went bang! in a big way how far would the blast wave extend?

then the fallout?

As was pointed out to me earlier. The UK processes nuclear waste from around the word into new usable fuel. But this can only be done a finite amount of times until there is high level waste which has to be dealt with by encasing in glass, which is in turn put into vessels and these vessels are stored in water ponds above ground at Sellafield!!!

Why in ponds above ground? because not one regional council will allow underground storage in their area.

There’s the biggest western EU nuclear power station in France closer to London than Sizewell at Gravelines. More along the cost of France too.

[Indy 3,283]

3 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Even if we assumed the highest figure for Chernobyl, it's still less than the most catastrophic dam failures.

The Banqiao Dam killed 25,000 through flooding when it burst, Machchhu was a minimum 1800, but was probably a lot higher. 

Indeed but we’ll never get true numbers as Russia would never detail it and I doubt we can link all the people who developed cancer and other deadly factors over the years due to the contamination. But it’s certainly safe if designed and operated correctly.

[SteveN8458 61]

43 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'd be interested in the basis on which you say this

I know that you believe what you say, and i could well believe what you claim too ....but there is always a hint of 'confirmation bias' with your thoughts.

Wikipedia suggests that the UK was never really a player in the manufacturing game.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaics_companies

 

 

My understanding is that the Solar installation side was killed off to a large extent when the feed in tariff was cut, probably about 6-8years ago. When the FIT was introduced a typical 4kw system cost £20k+ so only a few could afford it. They were rewarded with a FIT of approx 45p/kw generated + ??p/kw exported on a 25year fixed contract, by 2018 this was reduced to 4.41p generated + 5.99p exported (my actual rates). The FIT system was canned in 2019.

So when the prices dropped to a point where the general public could afford to buy, the rates dropped off a cliff.

Edited September 5, 2022 by SteveN8458
additional detail

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

6 minutes ago, SteveN8458 said:

My fear with nuclear is the potential for escalation, if one went bang! in a big way how far would the blast wave extend?

The don't go nuclear 'bang' as in an atomic bomb. The worst case 'bang' is probably what happened at Fukishima (or Chernobyl) - trapped hydrogen gas or steam exploding. That could happen almost anywhere in any non nuclear plant.

[Creative Midfielder 1,985]

18 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'd be interested in the basis on which you say this

I know that you believe what you say, and i could well believe what you claim too ....but there is always a hint of 'confirmation bias' with your thoughts.

Wikipedia suggests that the UK was never really a player in the manufacturing game.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaics_companies

 

 

You are quite right to say that the UK wasn't wasn't much of a player in manufacturing - that applies in most areas of course and certainly in renewables which the UK came to very late compared to continental Europe. I think it was probably 2007/8ish that I got heavily involved with renewables and I think at that time the only British manufactured products I recall were solar thermal panels and some fairly basic heat pumps (oh and maybe some wind turbines).

But during its final years the last Labour government introduced a whole series of incentive to stimulate and grow the renewable energy market and they succeeded so well that the solar PV market grew exponentially and so to a lesser extent did on-shore wind - that is what I was referring to as the UK 'solar industry'. It went from literally a cottage industry consisting of forward looking electricians using entirely imported equipment to a very susbstantial industry employing (well the estimates vary) but somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 people and still growing.

I can give you a personal example of both the size and speed of that growth - in 2007 I and a couple of people I'd worked with on and off with several times before on IT and engineering projects set up a renewables company (doing mainly solar thermal) with about half a dozen people. By 2010 we about 20 people doing some solar thermal, probably a bit more solar PV and a shedload of ground source heat pumps (many big ones rather than domestic). Scroll forward to end 2011/early 2012 we had around 2,500 people doing nothing but solar PV and still growing as fast as we could recruit and train up electricians & installers.

Of course, the UK manufactured element of this was still relatively small although by 2012 a lot of the ancillary bits of kit necessary were British manufactured even if the panels and inverters were nearly all imported from Europe or Japan (China was also getting going by then but still regarded as fairly low quality compared to the European and Japanese manufacturers). The size of UK market was certainly of interest by then to the Europeans and the Japanese manufacturers, who were starting to manufacture in the UK (although just as in the UK car industry, assemble might be a more accurate description than manufacture).

Anyway that was ten years ago and in 2012 the Tory Government (yep, the one that Cameron promised would be the 'greenest ever') completely collapsed the UK renewables industry at one fell (and illegal as it subsequently turned out but too late to do anyone any good) stroke.

Virtually all the PV installation companies of any size (and many of their suppliers) went bust and the PV 'industry' went back to a cottage industry. Neither it or the onshore wind industry have recovered to any appreciable extent since and as for heat pumps which hadn't really reached take-off speed by then and appear to have done even less since, despite the fact that barely a day goes by now without someone telling us they are the future. Unfortunately whilst they are great in the right situations, I think they are being massively over-hyped as the solution to heating the majority of British homes, not that it matters because the public clearly don't have confidence in the messages that the Government is sending and probably just as well because the UK is miles away from having the design and installation capability to install heat pumps at scale.

But I digress, and hopefully I answered your original question several paragraphs ago 😀

 

 

[Barbe bleu 814]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

You are quite right to say that the UK wasn't wasn't much of a player in manufacturing - that applies in most areas of course and certainly in renewables which the UK came to very late compared to continental Europe. I think it was probably 2007/8ish that I got heavily involved with renewables and I think at that time the only British manufactured products I recall were solar thermal panels and some fairly basic heat pumps (oh and maybe some wind turbines).

But during its final years the last Labour government introduced a whole series of incentive to stimulate and grow the renewable energy market and they succeeded so well that the solar PV market grew exponentially and so to a lesser extent did on-shore wind - that is what I was referring to as the UK 'solar industry'. It went from literally a cottage industry consisting of forward looking electricians using entirely imported equipment to a very susbstantial industry employing (well the estimates vary) but somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 people and still growing.

...

But I digress, and hopefully I answered your original question several paragraphs ago 😀

 

 

Yea, you answered it.   Pretty much the same as Steve n8458 did.

 

Does seem that the FiT did cause a feeding frenzy in installed capacity in 2014/15 that waned rapidly when the tariffs did. 

Looking back the original FiT looks looks ludicrously generous but I guess it had to be to get the ball rolling. I think the brakes had to be applied but they might have been pushed a little too hard too quickly. Still there might be a resurgence move the new bills start dropping into people's mailboxes. 

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just watched the Panorama programme about the Energy companies. Its a political and financial scandal.

The profit levels are eye watering and all known by the Government. Ministers continue to talk of looking at ways blah blah blah. Even the renewables are fleecing us and being subsidised at the same time.

Their boot is on our throat and they are not thinking of taking it off until they have no other choice because we are lifeless.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Just watched the Panorama programme about the Energy companies. Its a political and financial scandal.

The profit levels are eye watering and all known by the Government. Ministers continue to talk of looking at ways blah blah blah. Even the renewables are fleecing us and being subsidised at the same time.

Their boot is on our throat and they are not thinking of taking it off until they have no other choice because we are lifeless.

One day when I'm grey and old my grandkids will look back on this and marvel at the fact that not only were the corporations allowed to get away with it, but people repeatedly voted in their millions for a government that enabled them.

They'll be like, "so companies made billions out of the human need to not freeze to death in winter? What the **** was wrong with you guys?!", and we'll have no answer.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

35 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

One day when I'm grey and old my grandkids will look back on this and marvel at the fact that not only were the corporations allowed to get away with it, but people repeatedly voted in their millions for a government that enabled them.

They'll be like, "so companies made billions out of the human need to not freeze to death in winter? What the **** was wrong with you guys?!", and we'll have no answer.

Spot on. I cannot believe we are putting up with this. We are going to kill pensioners this winter so that we can boost pension funds. Try and explain that in any logical way.

[SteveN8458 61]

14 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

The don't go nuclear 'bang' as in an atomic bomb. The worst case 'bang' is probably what happened at Fukishima (or Chernobyl) - trapped hydrogen gas or steam exploding. That could happen almost anywhere in any non nuclear plant.

Thanks, I didn't know that detail, also you missed 3-mile Island

However, If trapped steam/Hydrogen can cause the top to blow off the containment vessel then a nuclear weapon could do the same.

All you want is for a nuclear equipped country with a madman at the top. You can't control a madman (or woman).

Yes, sorry I am playing devils advocate a bit, but at the moment I would put nothing past Putin.

Edited September 6, 2022 by SteveN8458

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

12 minutes ago, SteveN8458 said:

Thanks, I didn't know that detail, also you missed 3-mile Island

However, If trapped steam/Hydrogen can cause the top to blow off the containment vessel then a nuclear weapon could do the same.

All you want is for a nuclear equipped country with a madman at the top. You can't control a madman (or woman).

Yes, sorry I am playing devils advocate a bit, but at the moment I would put nothing past Putin.

The usual terrorist security concern is not nuclear weapons or plant explosions but more conventional low level waste (i.e from your local hospital) being driven into a large city and blown up (ergo spread around) with conventional explosives - the radiation risk would actually be low to non existent but the psychological effect upon a poorly educated populace might be immense. Think what it would do to house prices say in Kensington if low level radioactive material was spread around? This by the way isn't a secret concern but just not widely publicized but nevertheless a well understood issue.

Its why there are radiation detectors on some major roads - and indeed companies even that specialize in such detection.

The issues with nuclear plants are well known - it's why I'd prefer fewer bigger more easily contained / secured plants than lots of little ones!

By the way there are far more little known issues and mistakes than you mention - it's why I noted the two small reactors in central London that used to exist but nobody really knew about! Historical accidents in this country obviously include the fire at Windscale etc. There are also some very local 'cold war' stores about a man gone mad at a US base etc.