10 games is what he should get

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, Mullet said:

He has Sergent and Hugill who couldn't score in Amsterdam and Rashica who is crap and can't cross a ball without hitting it straight into a defender. You are right about one thing, one more signing from Webber and DS will have all the tools.

Hugill was prolific in pre-season, and then Sideshow Bob got the minutes today instead of him. Poor management.

Rashica got an assist today by the way.

[Mullet 293]

7 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Apparently he was on holiday post Villa sacking when Webber gave him a call out of the blue.

he’s out of his depth, has no control over this team and should be sacked

Some crap players i'm affraid that would barely make the Stowmarket Town side. The players are the ones out their depth. Farke couldn't do anything with them, Smith can't do anything with them. Two decent managers who will fall on the sword of Webbers incompetence.

[Mullet 293]

3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Hugill was prolific in pre-season, and then Sideshow Bob got the minutes today instead of him. Poor management.

Rashica got an assist today by the way.

Prolific is being a bit kind and who were these games against. Dereham is Hugills level i'm affraid. My 14 year old daughter can cross a ball better than Rashica and she doesn't even play football

[The Real Buh 3,423]

3 minutes ago, Mullet said:

Some crap players i'm affraid that would barely make the Stowmarket Town side. The players are the ones out their depth. Farke couldn't do anything with them, Smith can't do anything with them. Two decent managers who will fall on the sword of Webbers incompetence.

1 decent manager and 1idiot midlander who hasn’t got a clue

Edited August 6, 2022 by The Real Buh

[Canary dwarf 221]

Rashica was being scouted by munchengladbach today , I wonder if there be making offers in the next two weeks lol

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 minutes ago, Mullet said:

Prolific is being a bit kind and who were these games against. Dereham is Hugills level i'm affraid. My 14 year old daughter can cross a ball better than Rashica and she doesn't even play football

Didn't he score two good goals against Marseille?

[The Real Buh 3,423]

Not at least attempting a physical striking option in Hugill is just a typically poor Dean Smith decision to make. 
 

one dimensional, always

Edited August 6, 2022 by The Real Buh

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

35 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Should have kept Neil Adams then and not appointed Alex Neil who took us up that same season? 

Neil Adams stood down of his own volition; he'd made his own assessment that he wasn't up to it. 

Alex Neil did well, but didn't stop fans turning on him and deeming him clueless when things didn't go our way. 

Stepping in part way through a season is odds on to be a hiding to nothing. Adams himself was badly damaged by being judged on an impossible task of keeping us up with four games left, needing points against four top premier league teams; from game one in the Championship, he was bashed over the head with those results. He was never given a chance by most fans in spite of having won the FA youth cup for us. 

We're seeing much the same with Smith now: he took on an incredibly difficult task where it could already be seen that they weren't up to the task, but two games into this Championship season he's being bashed over the head for not keeping us up, in spite of having got us more points per game than Farke did. I didn't even want Farke to go, but I recognise he did improve things marginally for us in the prem, in spite of Covid related setbacks. 

You know, if we're mid-table at Christmas then I'll probably change my mind, but ultimately nobody has crystal balls, he's an experienced football man with a solid track record, and I don't believe there's a superior replacement available that will want to take the job. Hell, you'd have to be a bit of a moron to want a job at a club where a chunk of fans want rid of the manager only two games in before new signings have even bedded in; any manager that would want it in those circumstances should be disqualified on the spot. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Mullet 293]

3 minutes ago, Canary dwarf said:

Rashica was being scouted by munchengladbach today , I wonder if there be making offers in the next two weeks lol

I hope these scouts were blind drunk or just blind. I wonder if Rashica would make a good ball boy, if he can't kick it to a yellow shirt maybe he can throw it

[Virtual reality 706]

8 minutes ago, Canary dwarf said:

Rashica was being scouted by munchengladbach today , I wonder if there be making offers in the next two weeks lol

Yes I was quite surprised to hear that, given the Farke connection and how Rashica performed for him. There were also reports they were in for Tzolis before he moved, which is even more surprising. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Alex Neil did well, but didn't stop fans turning on him and deeming him clueless when things didn't go our way. 

That's just football, stock rises, stock falls, managers run their course. Even happens to the best of them, like Arsene Wenger.

Alex Neil wasn't very good at spending money, he ended up with like 4 number 10's, none of them fit to lace the boots of Wes Hoolahan.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

11 minutes ago, Canary dwarf said:

Rashica was being scouted by munchengladbach today , I wonder if there be making offers in the next two weeks lol

Wonder if Farke's having a sniff around?

[Mullet 293]

7 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Didn't he score two good goals against Marseille?

Yeh I believe he did. Let's get Hugill playing instead of Pukki and get the crosses in for a few games and see what happens.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

8 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

That's just football, stock rises, stock falls, managers run their course. Even happens to the best of them, like Arsene Wenger.

Alex Neil wasn't very good at spending money, he ended up with like 4 number 10's, none of them fit to lace the boots of Wes Hoolahan.

Yeah. And it's driven mostly by fans being impatient. 

Fact is we have no clue what goes on behind closed doors, but just the simple fact that Cantwell has his head down, seems in positive spirits, and is actually proving one of our most creative outlets, is enough to convince me that Smith can motivate players. His link to Aston Villa has brought us in a tidy loanee that we might not otherwise have had. 

Today we got back a goal after going a goal down and they got back into the game in spite of it. Generally, I saw a lot of high pressing football with decent, fluid passing not too different to what we had under Farke. Obviously a bit disjointed at times with new people fitting in and shaky confidence from last season, but it feels to me that the ingredients are there to have a good season. But I recognise that some obviously now have a taste for sacking managers, so I guess we'll see. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yeah. And it's driven mostly by fans being impatient. 

Fact is we have no clue what goes on behind closed doors, but just the simple fact that Cantwell has his head down, seems in positive spirits, and is actually proving one of our most creative outlets, is enough to convince me that Smith can motivate players. His link to Aston Villa has brought us in a tidy loanee that we might not otherwise have had. 

Today we got back a goal after going a goal down and they got back into the game in spite of it. Generally, I saw a lot of high pressing football with decent, fluid passing not too different to what we had under Farke. Obviously a bit disjointed at times with new people fitting in and shaky confidence from last season, but it feels to me that the ingredients are there to have a good season. But I recognise that some obviously now have a taste for sacking managers, so I guess we'll see. 

I think it will be clear after 10 games whether we look like we could have a good season.

So you are saying that if we're 15th in March you still wouldn't sack him?

The reality is we must have a top 3 or 4 wage bill, and therefore there is a minimum performance expectation. I'd say top 6 is that minimum. 

You do realise how much carnage a failure to win promotion would have next summer don't you? We'd be half way through parachute payments and desperately seeking to flog whoever we can to drastically reduce the wage bill, that's why there is pressure to perform, and I can assure you that those holding the purse strings don't need the fans to tell them whether we're on the verge of disaster. 

It won't be the crap players that we can shift in the event of a fire sale.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think it will be clear after 10 games whether we look like we could have a good season.

So you are saying that if we're 15th in March you still wouldn't sack him?

The reality is we must have a top 3 or 4 wage bill, and therefore there is a minimum performance expectation. I'd say top 6 is that minimum. 

You do realise how much carnage a failure to win promotion would have next summer don't you? We'd be half way through parachute payments and desperately seeking to flog whoever we can to drastically reduce the wage bill, that's why there is pressure to perform, and I can assure you that those holding the purse strings don't need the fans to tell them whether we're on the verge of disaster. 

It won't be the crap players that we can shift in the event of a fire sale.

Farke was appointed in May 2017 and finished 16th for 2017-2018. Should he have been sacked?

Edited August 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Farke was appointed in May 2017 and finished 16th for 2017-2018. Should he have been sacked?

That was a different set of circumstances, because he followed a failure to win promotion back at the first attempt, the fire sale (and releasing of numerous players) occurred that summer. He was the one who had to pick up the pieces of failure. 

That's precisely the type of rebuild season we'd be facing next year if we don't go up this season. Are you saying that Dean Smith, should he fail this season, be allowed to oversee the rebuild? Ridiculous. His job is to get the best out of what is an expensive squad of players, many of whom are young and under a good manager should improve and develop, if he can't show himself capable of doing that then we should show him the door.

No time for sentiment, and in fact there isn't any sentiment as he hasn't really earned any. Nothing personal but its sink or swim. I hope he swims, its expensive and disruptive to sack a manager, never nice, but sometimes necessary.

Lets not forget by the way that after we sacked Alex Neil we appointed Alan Irvine on a caretaker basis who put Jamal Lewis in the first team squad and played James Maddison at the end of the season, both contributing to their subsequent breakthroughs the following year under Daniel Farke. Had we followed your belief that a manager shouldn't be sacked mid-season that wouldn't have happened. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[OnDaBall 137]

Unless our season completely implodes, with loss after loss like last season, then the board won't act.

Whether us as fans like or respect him is pretty irrelevant, it's the players and only them whose opinion really matters and not anyone outside them who have formed their own conclusion on Smith's/Shakeys ability to deliver.

Last season was a disaster and if we are all being honest there was no one who would have done much better with the squad we had. No matter what was said publicly, the board obviously hired Smith with this season in the Championship in mind or signings would have been made in January.

I would think if we aren't in a good position by the world cup break then the board might have the conversation, he deserves at least that time to whip us into shape, in my opinion anyway.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

That was a different set of circumstances, because he followed a failure to win promotion back at the first attempt, the fire sale (and releasing of numerous players) occurred that summer. He was the one who had to pick up the pieces of failure. 

That's precisely the type of rebuild season we'd be facing next year if we don't go up this season.

Oh... That was different. Yes, you're right. There are always subtleties and nuances that make cut and dry decisions, like, for the sake of argument, 'if we're not in play off positions after 10 games then he must go' pretty stupid. Good point. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

if we're not in play off positions after 10 games then he must go' pretty stupid. 

Not as stupid as your apparent inability to read very simple sentences. 

I've edited my post by the way, to add the bit about Alan Irvine promoting Jamal Lewis to the first team squad and giving James Maddison some game time, just to emphasise the stupidity of your belief that failing managers shouldn't be sacked until the end of a season.

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

And if not within touching distance of the top 6 and looking like we're heading towards consistently good form, time to do a Watford.

Edited August 6, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

11 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Not as stupid as your apparent inability to read very simple sentences. 

I've edited my post by the way, to add the bit about Alan Irvine promoting Jamal Lewis to the first team squad and giving James Maddison some game time, just to emphasise the stupidity of your belief that failing managers shouldn't be sacked until the end of a season.

The general thrust is putting hard and fast rules in on where we should be at certain points. I say that's stupid.

It's a noticeable thing that the really knowledgeable and insightful posters regarding the actual football - Ricardo, KC spring to mind - rarely seem to get that caught up in the sack the manager crusades. Strong opinions against managers, for the most part, just seem to be a way of saying people aren't happy with results, don't really have a clue what the problem is, so latch onto sacking the manager as the easy magic fix; Dunning-Kruger in action.

Edited August 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The general thrust is putting hard and fast rules in on where we should be at certain points. I say that's stupid.

It's a noticeable thing that the really knowledgeable and insightful posters regarding the actual football - Ricardo, KC spring to mind - rarely seen to get that caught up in the sack the manager crusades. Strong opinions against managers, for the most part, just seem to be a way of saying people aren't happy with results, don't really have a clue what the problem is, so latch onto sacking the manager as the easy magic fix; Dunning-Kruger in action.

I've just searched the word "sack" and filtered to your username.

You've never called for a manager to be sacked. You weren't happy that Farke was sacked.

Some would say admirable, loyalty and patience are great traits in a person. Others would point out that you've criticised the Farke sacking, but if it were left up you there wouldn't have been a vacancy in May 2017.

Name your 5 best Norwich managers of all time, and then tell me how many of them were appointed to replace a sacked manager.

There are those who shout "sack, sack, sack" after 2 poor games (I'm not doing that) and there are those who are far too nice and are never open to the idea of sacking a manager (that's you), and personally I think its the pragmatists and realists in between those two extremes who are right. 

You've perceived this thread to be an anti-Smith pro-sacking one, its actually a call for more patience than some are showing, some are calling for his sacking tonight. I happen to have some hope that 10 games in he wouldn't trigger my criterion for considering dismissal, I'm not too optimistic but finding some form and working out our strongest XI remains my preference over an expensive and disruptive sacking.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

24 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I've just searched the word "sack" and filtered to your username.

You've never called for a manager to be sacked. You weren't happy that Farke was sacked.

Some would say admirable, loyalty and patience are great traits in a person. Others would point out that you've criticised the Farke sacking, but if it were left up you there wouldn't have been a vacancy in May 2017.

Name your 5 best Norwich managers of all time, and then tell me how many of them were appointed to replace a sacked manager.

There are those who shout "sack, sack, sack" after 2 poor games (I'm not doing that) and there are those who are far too nice and are never open to the idea of sacking a manager (that's you), and personally I think its the pragmatists and realists in between those two extremes who are right. 

You've perceived this thread to be an anti-Smith pro-sacking one, its actually a call for more patience than some are showing, some are calling for his sacking tonight. I happen to have some hope that 10 games in he wouldn't trigger my criterion for considering dismissal, I'm not too optimistic but finding some form and working out our strongest XI remains my preference over an expensive and disruptive sacking.

My view of sacking managers is I don't have the knowledge, insight, or experience to judge whether they're doing their job to a good enough standard. 

Obviously, every Championship season I'd like to see us promoted; every Premier League season I'd like to see us survive. I recognise also that we're kind of the Haas F1 of football where we're trying to compete on a relative shoestring, slowly building organically through semi-regular Premier League windfalls and consistent upcycling of players. That inevitably means that, no matter how good the backroom staff, board decisions, coaching and management are, it is always going to be very difficult to survive in the Premier League without catching a lot of breaks: not too many injuries, not too much covid, half way decent refereeing. 

The board have a really difficult balancing act trying to get us players to compete and also bring in players that we can add value to, to build our capital to hopefully get players who can compete, or maybe finally get the right investor who is attracted by putting money into a club where everything is clearly run well and it just needs money to kick on. They know the extent to which their limits are limiting the head coach, and they also know in incredible detail what he's doing and how the performances are, well beyond just the results. 

By the simplistic metrics people are going on on here, Farke should have gone at the end of 2017/2018. There were definitely people loudly arguing for it. The board didn't do it though, and it paid dividends. 

At the end of the day, if the board sacks then fair enough. I didn't agree with Farke's sacking, but there was plenty of toxicity building that made it completely forgivable in my eyes after they've been pilloried so many times for persevering in the past. 

And specifically with Farke, we have lost an absolute gem for the sake of half-wits having a tantrum because we struggle in the Premier League. 

Fans: know your limits. Leave executive decisions to people competent to make them. That's not us. 

PS, in many respects I think Webber did Farke a favour sacking him, because I think he'd outgrown what we could give him in terms of resources to compete at the level whieh he personally deserves. The fact that he was still with us and happy to persevere shows what an awesome guy he is. Personally, I think he's going to have die Fohlen in the champions league in the next couple of years. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I recognise also that we're kind of the Haas F1 of football where we're trying to compete on a relative shoestring,

Oh mate, please do go and argue that on a Preston, Wigan, Rotherham, Coventry or Luton forum a few days after we dropped a rumoured £8m on a Brazilian. Transfer fees of players on our bench alone yesterday amounted to about £34m. 

That argument works in the Premier League, it doesn't work in the Championship. We have an expensive squad and likely one of the top 3 wage bills in the division. Dean Smith will be judged accordingly, either that or we call for Webbers head for misappropriation of funds. Finishing 15th and equating it to Farke's first season full of bargain basement Germans and free agents doesn't cut the mustard.

Sink or swim, if we're failing either Smith or Webber need to walk. I hope we swim, if we don't then we need accountability and consequence.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

5 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Oh mate, please do go and argue that on a Preston, Wigan, Rotherham, Coventry or Luton forum a few days after we dropped a rumoured £8m on a Brazilian. Transfer fees of players on our bench alone yesterday amounted to about £34m. 

That argument works in the Premier League, it doesn't work in the Championship. We have an expensive squad and likely one of the top 3 wage bills in the division. Dean Smith will be judged accordingly, either that or we call for Webbers head for misappropriation of funds. Finishing 15th and equating it to Farke's first season full of bargain basement Germans and free agents doesn't cut the mustard.

Sink or swim, if we're failing either Smith or Webber need to walk. I hope we swim, if we don't then we need accountability and consequence.

That's fine, but here we are two games in with idiots calling for sacking the manager who has only just bought in some of this squad. You're trying to pin me down on stupid hypotheticals like what I'd think if he finished 15th, which is simply never going to happen. 

As you've just pointed out, we're bringing in bloody good players under a manager with a bloody good record. we have idiots arguing he's no good because he was sacked at villa on the same thread it's being pointed out managers are sacked most weeks throughout the leagues; in the meantime he's bashed over the head for not delivering survival for a team that already looked like it was going to be relegated under one of the best managers we've experienced... who was sacked. 

This is a stupid debate, led by utter donkeys. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's fine, but here we are two games in with idiots calling for sacking the manager who has only just bought in some of this squad. You're trying to pin me down on stupid hypotheticals like what I'd think if he finished 15th, which is simply never going to happen. 

And you are apparently blaming me for other people calling for his head after 2 games, which I'm clearly not doing.

Even more stupid is the people writing off Pukki after 2 games, which is remarkable considering he reached double figures in the worlds toughest league last season.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

And you are apparently blaming me for other people calling for his head after 2 games, which I'm clearly not doing.

Even more stupid is the people writing off Pukki after 2 games, which is remarkable considering he reached double figures in the worlds toughest league last season.

No, I definitely wasn't blaming you. Sorry if you had that impression. 

As far as Pukki's concerned, he's a great player. I'm worried that we know he didn't want to stay though and fear that will have a negative impact on his performance. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[DraytonBoy 142]

It's back to the 'is it the players or the manager' for me assuming Smith has little say in recruitment and I think ten games isn't enough to judge, I'd give him until the WC shutdown in November by which time Hayden, Ramsay and the two South Americans will hopefully all be fully fit and will have played a substantial number of games.

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

9 hours ago, Canary dwarf said:

Rashica was being scouted by munchengladbach today , I wonder if there be making offers in the next two weeks lol

I think Aarons would have caught the eye more. Back to his old self doing the job of 2 players. Why can't Rashica be as good going forward?

[hogesar 9,618]

Fans on here are notoriously wrong - Farkes first season wanting rid, the disgust at employing a manager from Hamilton in Scotland to try and recover a season etc etc.

Essentially,  if fans start wanting a manager out, in recent years it normally means we're going to win the title.

Clear, obvious positives from yesterday and as per the Wigan fans around me at the time "Another day and Norwich put 4 or 5 past us, they were a cut above".