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20 hours ago, jaberry2 said:

He is a player who can contribute straight away and is a class above any of those 3 players.

On what evidence do you say that with such confidence? A fairly average loan last season at a lower level? Or have you watched him? 

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6 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Yep, it doesn’t work for us…. So develop our own!    All they need is regular opportunities then a good run of games.

If it was as simple as that, every club would invest in category one and just 'develop their own'

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Except the system does indeed work for us. We have sent several players out on loan this season precisely in order to facilitate their development. They are players not yet good enough to hold down a first team place at NCFC who would therefore lack the vital experience of genuine competitive first team football if we didn't loan them out. Saxon Earley scored for Stevenage last night, he wouldn't have made the bench for us. Have you already forgotten the effect of the loans of Maddison and Godfrey? 

The idea that we should develop our own by giving weaker players an extended run in the first team is simply bizarre. Name me a single team that sits its strongest players on the bench while it fields a weaker team in order to prioritise the development of youth over winning games. It doesn't happen because every team's priority is to win as many games as possible; that is the only business plan that makes any sense. 

When I say it doesn’t work for us, am referring to loans in, not out!   Otherwise like I said previously I have no interest in engaging with you since you distort what I say to suit your argument!   

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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45 minutes ago, hogesar said:

If it was as simple as that, every club would invest in category one and just 'develop their own'

 

Never simple of course!  It’s even more difficult trying to compete at the EPL level on our budgets!  
 

Like I’ve said before though, we need a deeper squad of players at the level and to do that they we have to speculate- it’s not only developing through the academy, it’s finding those players who we can develop more to become EPL players.   
 

Players like Nunez at £4m for example.   There are undoubtedly CDM type players out there also who we could scout!  

As for Ramsey, what’s to say he is going to be sufficiently better than say Sinani or Dickson-Peters or Springett or any other U23 that may not be far away?   Often, all they need is opportunity.    If we were loaning someone to do a job and could sign at the end then that may make more sense!   We won’t be signing this lad!

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1 minute ago, ged in the onion bag said:

When I say it doesn’t work for us, am referring to loans in, not out!   Otherwise like I said previously I have no interest in engaging with you since you distort what I said to suit your argument!   

By all means stick your head in the sand (as usual), but whether you like it or not the loans system includes both those coming in and those leaving the club on loan. It's very straightforward; you loan players in who you believe can make a first team contribution, and loan out those who you believe are not yet ready to do so. That's why it is typical for players to find themselves loaned to clubs in a lower division to the one which "owns" them. You "develop your own" precisely by affording them an opportunity to get first team action in a club where they actually merit starting. The idea that it makes sense to throw inexperienced players into games the manager considers them to be unequipped to handle is a recipe for destroying the confidence and development of a young player. You only need a second to imagine the response of 26,000 fans at Carrow Rd as they watch Pukki on the bench while a youngster fails yet again to hit a barn door. 

 Strange how you always find an excuse never to defend anything you have got to say, all you do is repeat the same nonsense that no manager or club would ever consider remotely sensible. The idea that the loans of Huckerby, Crouch, Skipp, etc, didn't work for us is simply ridiculous.

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3 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Never simple of course!  It’s even more difficult trying to compete at the EPL level on our budgets!  
 

Like I’ve said before though, we need a deeper squad of players at the level and to do that they we have to speculate- it’s not only developing through the academy, it’s finding those players who we can develop more to become EPL players.   
 

Players like Nunez at £4m for example.   There are undoubtedly CDM type players out there also who we could scout!  

As for Ramsey, what’s to say he is going to be sufficiently better than say Sinani or Dickson-Peters or Springett or any other U23 that may not be far away?   Often, all they need is opportunity.    If we were loaning someone to do a job and could sign at the end then that may make more sense!   We won’t be signing this lad!

Here's a hypothetical scenario... Let's say that Ramsey is no better than Rowe, but we loan out Rowe for a full season starting for a top league 1 team before the window closes.  

Ramsey contributes a bit but doesnt nail down a regular spot in the same way that Rowe probably would do here this year.  At the same time, Rowe plays 40 games, scores some goals, gets some assists and takes a developmental leap over the next season down in league 1.  End of the year, Ramsey goes back to Villa, Rowe comes in upgrading the squad and we have not had a significant financial outlay.  Works all round, and should Ramsey actually nail down a starting spot and contribute, then we win even more.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, BSEYELLOW said:

Here's a hypothetical scenario... Let's say that Ramsey is no better than Rowe, but we loan out Rowe for a full season starting for a top league 1 team before the window closes.  

Ramsey contributes a bit but doesnt nail down a regular spot in the same way that Rowe probably would do here this year.  At the same time, Rowe plays 40 games, scores some goals, gets some assists and takes a developmental leap over the next season down in league 1.  End of the year, Ramsey goes back to Villa, Rowe comes in upgrading the squad and we have not had a significant financial outlay.  Works all round, and should Ramsey actually nail down a starting spot and contribute, then we win even more.

Yes hypothetically I absolutely understand your point but since he’s injured for a time let’s say it’s Tzolis or Springett or Rowe…. They go out on loan, fair enough, no problem with that if the loan is right.   No point in that loan being to League One though since Smith won’t see them as good enough to step up to the EPL next season.    Look at Martin, did well in a very poor Doncaster team now he’s out of the picture completely.  
 

So we have say Sinani, Cantwell, Rashica, Dowell, Idah, Sara, Nunez and Springett to cover AM positions, possibly McLean as back up and then Martin, Dickson-Peters, Kamara?, perhaps others to step up when needed (likely off the bench) while they develop but sometimes all they need is a chance in a thriving team.   Why, in that case, would we need Ramsey who we can’t sign anyway?   He will prevent others (say Sinani or Dowell) from game time and potentially create a hole in the team like Skipps loan did that we struggle to fill either because ours didn’t get opportunity to develop or they had loans that didn’t go well for whatever reason.   Last time we put attacking kids with struggling L1 and 2 teams.   Of course they never got decent service and being young and inexperienced weren’t what these teams needed.   Omotoye at Carlisle, D-Peters at Gillingham etc….  There loans would serve much better purpose in a thriving team or otherwise a different type of football (Tzolis’).  
 

Experiences enable learning and we seem to be doing the same thing as it won’t develop a deeper pool of Championship players that can step up!   Not in the short term anyway!   These lads if they go to L1 need then to go to the Championship.   Poor loans won’t help that and as it’s all a gamble anyway, better we look longer term.   
 

No one knows how loans will develop but I personally believe this desperation to get promoted this season than develop a better squad over say two seasons is going to lead us to another dismal effort if we do go up.    We can’t afford the amount of personnel changes a promotion would require either financially or for morale.

Have heard all the arguments but fact is time will tell!   

 

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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8 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Yep, it doesn’t work for us…. So develop our own!    All they need is regular opportunities then a good run of games.

PL loans have benefited practically every promoted side over the last few years - including Norwich - yet it "doesn't work for us"?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

There needs to be some pragmatism.

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, kirku said:

PL loans have benefited practically every promoted side over the last few years - including Norwich - yet it "doesn't work for us"?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

There needs to be some pragmatism.

 

Indeed! According to Ged it makes more sense to lose huge amounts of money languishing in the Champs in order to take a punt on developing young potential, the best of whom we would then be forced to sell off to make up for all the money lost out on by failing to get promoted. Cue the theme tune from MASH!

Edited by horsefly
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2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

On what evidence do you say that with such confidence? A fairly average loan last season at a lower level? Or have you watched him? 

He's part of the England under 19's set up, which would suggest he is a better players already than Springett or otherwise. I dont think other than the latter being Tzsolis (who is on loan) the other two offer us much at first team level.

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1 hour ago, BSEYELLOW said:

Here's a hypothetical scenario... Let's say that Ramsey is no better than Rowe, but we loan out Rowe for a full season starting for a top league 1 team before the window closes.  

Ramsey contributes a bit but doesnt nail down a regular spot in the same way that Rowe probably would do here this year.  At the same time, Rowe plays 40 games, scores some goals, gets some assists and takes a developmental leap over the next season down in league 1.  End of the year, Ramsey goes back to Villa, Rowe comes in upgrading the squad and we have not had a significant financial outlay.  Works all round, and should Ramsey actually nail down a starting spot and contribute, then we win even more.

Spot on! Even at this early stage we can see this in action in the case of Saxon Earley's loan to Stevenage. The guy would not have had a sniff of first team football at Carrow Rd but has already seen his confidence and development boosted by his loan performances (see his specific thread and the vids I have posted on there).

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You have to assume Ramsey is better than our other youth players, either here or out on loan. Don’t remember a huge outcry when Skipp played instead of ‘one of our own.’ 
 

however, I thought, similar to Gibbs, Flynn Clarke may have been in and around it this season. 

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