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6 hours ago, Yellow Wal said:

I fully agree that we must live and work in the modern day and modern way but what a shame the Reserve leagues of the past were dismantled.

At that time clubs developed their own players. Youngsters played with, and against, experienced players, club stalwarts, other up and coming youngsters and learnt their trade at the club they were hoping to make a career with; and were locally monitored. 

Unfortunately that system did not benefit the richest clubs, in fact it was beneficial to clubs who were not as rich as they could pick players up from clubs who they felt could do a job for them, that their present club felt were not going to make it with them.

Spurs were a good source for us, Culverhouse, Bowen, Polston, Crook, Brooke and, of course Ian Crook and Martin Peters. (there's probably others as well, I haven't looked!)

At that time if a player was considered surplus to requirements he had the chance of furthering his career, permantly, at another club. Not being moved from pillar to post and getting his permanent move after half a dozen loan moves.

The whole game now is designed to help the richest clubs. Smaller clubs have little, or no, hope of picking up trophies. Big clubs regularly loan 10 or 20 players out each year, usually more in the case of Chelsea, mostly for financial reasons.

That level playing field seems to have disappeared many years ago.

Make no mistake the loan of Ramsey, long term, will not benefit Norwich City unless there is an option to buy (Perhaps all loans should have that built in!)

 

EPPP it's screwed every one apart from the bigger teams. 

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On 06/08/2022 at 09:49, Terminally Yellow said:

Oh look, an idiot Meme Generator - Imgflip

You feel good posting that rubbish!   Bet you was proper proud of yourself!

Seen enough of your posts to know I’d absolutely wipe the floor with you about football matters any time!   

We have differing views, you’re just so arrogant you think you’ve got a clue what your talking about and it gives you some misplaced righteousness!   

Don’t be so disrespectful!

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As long as he is selected on merit and not some contractual obligation then it carries no risk, otherthan pissing off our youngsters.

The selection of the 7 on the bench is hugely important and Smith has to get that right. If he's ahead of Dowell questions will be asked.

It just seems slightly strange to loan out Tzolis and then loan in another club's youngster. Does this mean Springett and Rowe are down the pecking order when fit as well?

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On 06/08/2022 at 09:24, kirku said:

The loan system can benefit all parties. Let's look at Skipp:

Skipp: gets to play regular first team football for the first time in his career at a club playing possession football at the top end of the Champ - a huge chance to prove himself

Norwich: get a PL level player for a relatively modest sum, end up winning the league with Skipp playing a pivotal role

Spurs: send out someone who was not in their immediate first team plans to prove his worth. Skipp returns and goes straight into their first team squad

This was hugely successful for all concerned. The fact that we didn't adequately replace him does not alter that.

Could you offer any solution / option how we could have?   Maybe put a price tag on what it would take to have replaced him?   Whatever the price, it would be way out of our budget!

Any successful loan from the EPL and we will never buy or replace them….. Villa just sold an 18yr old to Chelsea for £20m.

Successful loans of promising players just create holes we can’t fill and unsuccessful loans are a waste anyway!   

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1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

It just seems slightly strange to loan out Tzolis and then loan in another club's youngster. Does this mean Springett and Rowe are down the pecking order when fit as well?

Tzolis needs regular game time and isn’t going to get that here at the moment, as for Springett and Rowe, when fit one can go on loan and one stay. The other thing is if Ramsay makes us better I don’t see what the problem is personally 

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Judging by the article in the Pink Un today, he can certainly talk the talk. 

We all know the question that follows, though ...

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I too am scratching my head over this one. Why help Villa develop their player when we have Rowe and Springett and Tzolis with promise playing in same positions? 

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11 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Judging by the article in the Pink Un today, he can certainly talk the talk. 

We all know the question that follows, though ...

So he can talk the talk, but can he dance the dance?

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17 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I too am scratching my head over this one. Why help Villa develop their player when we have Rowe and Springett and Tzolis with promise playing in same positions? 

He is a player who can contribute straight away and is a class above any of those 3 players.

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15 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

So he can talk the talk, but can he dance the dance?

The question is Cambridge, can you dance the dance?

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1 minute ago, jaberry2 said:

The question is Cambridge, can you dance the dance?

I can do the Fandango but only if you ask nicely

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1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

I can do the Fandango but only if you ask nicely

Have you considered changing your username to Scaramouche?

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2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I too am scratching my head over this one. Why help Villa develop their player when we have Rowe and Springett and Tzolis with promise playing in same positions? 

Well if Tzolis can not get regular playing time here whatever standard is he at ? 

if he is going to be as good as others have said he should be able produce better performances than Rashica and Sargent 

I Know Rowe will be in and around team when fit but i am sure tzolis would have had plenty on game time here as others are not performing 

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Should make that 'If' everyone is fit, Canaryking. Not sure is my short answer as know little about him.

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On 06/08/2022 at 08:37, Yellow Wal said:

I fully agree that we must live and work in the modern day and modern way but what a shame the Reserve leagues of the past were dismantled.

At that time clubs developed their own players. Youngsters played with, and against, experienced players, club stalwarts, other up and coming youngsters and learnt their trade at the club they were hoping to make a career with; and were locally monitored. 

Unfortunately that system did not benefit the richest clubs, in fact it was beneficial to clubs who were not as rich as they could pick players up from clubs who they felt could do a job for them, that their present club felt were not going to make it with them.

Spurs were a good source for us, Culverhouse, Bowen, Polston, Crook, Brooke and, of course Ian Crook and Martin Peters. (there's probably others as well, I haven't looked!)

At that time if a player was considered surplus to requirements he had the chance of furthering his career, permantly, at another club. Not being moved from pillar to post and getting his permanent move after half a dozen loan moves.

The whole game now is designed to help the richest clubs. Smaller clubs have little, or no, hope of picking up trophies. Big clubs regularly loan 10 or 20 players out each year, usually more in the case of Chelsea, mostly for financial reasons.

That level playing field seems to have disappeared many years ago.

Make no mistake the loan of Ramsey, long term, will not benefit Norwich City unless there is an option to buy (Perhaps all loans should have that built in!)

Not really no. The old system failed to develop players of the highest quality, hence years of International failure. The new system produces players that are more technical, faster in thought and action, fitter and stronger. If Ramsey contributes to a promotions season the club will have benefited, there is no long term in football.

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1 hour ago, CANARYKING said:

When  everyone is fit, where is he going to play 

 

1 hour ago, CANARYKING said:

When  everyone is fit, where is he going to play 

We always have an injury list it’s built into any new signings contact 

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5 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

I can do the Fandango but only if you ask nicely

I pictured you more of a Channing Tatum style dancer. Riding your pony around Cambridge.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Not really no. The old system failed to develop players of the highest quality, hence years of International failure. The new system produces players that are more technical, faster in thought and action, fitter and stronger. If Ramsey contributes to a promotions season the club will have benefited, there is no long term in football.

It is not the old system that failed to develop the players, many players were developed and many other clubs, other than the richest, had opportunities to flourish.

Under the 'old' system English teams dominated European football in the late 70s and early 80s and only the European ban after Heysell, keeping English teams from Europe stopped that, it then took English football a decade to get over that.

By the 'new' system do you mean the system where the richest clubs monopolise all the young talent and then loan it out here, there and everywhere in the hope of finding a gem for themselves?

The more technical, faster in thought and action, fitter and stronger players has nothing to do with the 'new' system. It is created primarily by money. The amount of money spent on the number of fitness coaches, coaches, physios and the the rest of the backroom staff is enoermous, surely that it responsible. Money is creating even more money for the top clubs.

"There is no long term in football". Sorry, I have to disagree. With the 'old' system perhaps there wasn't but now money rules so much that everyone knows before the season starts that the league champions, FA Cup winners and League Cup winners will come from the same group of 5 or 6 clubs and that the rest are just there to make the numbers up. Footballing giants of the past now have no hope of regaining their past status, unless, of course, they find new, rich owners such as Newcastle have now done.

Never used to be that way! Was it better then, or better now?

Sorry, of international failure, that has nothing to do will player development, more down to an antiquated Football Association continually appointing yes men and not having the football knowledge to do anything different. And, have we won anything yet?

 

 

Edited by Yellow Wal
additional text

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6 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Judging by the article in the Pink Un today, he can certainly talk the talk. 

We all know the question that follows, though ...

I'd certainly rather have him here than El Khazi. Little bit of pressure on him though if he's going to keep Rowe and Springett out of the squad. Both were small positives from last season, especially Rowe.

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16 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

It is not the old system that failed to develop the players, many players were developed and many other clubs, other than the richest, had opportunities to flourish.

Under the 'old' system English teams dominated European football in the late 70s and early 80s and only the European ban after Heysell, keeping English teams from Europe stopped that, it then took English football a decade to get over that.

By the 'new' system do you mean the system where the richest clubs monopolise all the young talent and then loan it out here, there and everywhere in the hope of finding a gem for themselves?

The more technical, faster in thought and action, fitter and stronger players has nothing to do with the 'new' system. It is created primarily by money. The amount of money spent on the number of fitness coaches, coaches, physios and the the rest of the backroom staff is enoermous, surely that it responsible. Money is creating even more money for the top clubs.

"There is no long term in football". Sorry, I have to disagree. With the 'old' system perhaps there wasn't but now money rules so much that everyone knows before the season starts that the league champions, FA Cup winners and League Cup winners will come from the same group of 5 or 6 clubs and that the rest are just there to make the numbers up. Footballing giants of the past now have no hope of regaining their past status, unless, of course, they find new, rich owners such as Newcastle have now done.

Never used to be that way! Was it better then, or better now?

Sorry, of international failure, that has nothing to do will player development, more down to an antiquated Football Association continually appointing yes men and not having the football knowledge to do anything different. And, have we won anything yet?

By new system I mean the Elite Player Performance Plan. It is this that has addressed the issue that English players were technically lagging behind global standards, instead producing better player capable of holding their own in World Cups, Euros etc. It is all very well going back 40/50 years and saying was better then and maybe culturally or socially perhaps it was. But that is a different question. In football terms it certainly wasn't.

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The EPPP was designed by the Premier League for the Premier League. It enables and encourages the Premier League to enact youth farming and denies smaller clubs the opportunity to pick up local talent. It also, by default, means the larger clubs need to loan so many players out and use smaller clubs. If the Premier clubs loaning these players out truly wanted to develop them they surely would want to coach the themselves, the only problem being that they have so many, thus denying those better youngsters to other clubs.

Money talks yet again.

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13 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Could you offer any solution / option how we could have?   Maybe put a price tag on what it would take to have replaced him?   

Well, we changed the system and went out and loaned in Normann and Gilmour. The latter of which was hailed as quite a significant coup.

Obviously didn't pan out, and the blame for that lies with the recruitment team, but the "solution" was fairly clear 

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Looked very raw to me tonight, has good close control, makes decent runs but hesitated on the ball a couple of times and made a poor decision to just punt it at the GK from close range when he got into the box, there's something there to work with though.

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1 hour ago, kirku said:

Well, we changed the system and went out and loaned in Normann and Gilmour. The latter of which was hailed as quite a significant coup.

Obviously didn't pan out, and the blame for that lies with the recruitment team, but the "solution" was fairly clear 

Yep, it doesn’t work for us…. So develop our own!    All they need is regular opportunities then a good run of games.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, FenwayFrank said:

Tzolis needs regular game time and isn’t going to get that here at the moment, as for Springett and Rowe, when fit one can go on loan and one stay. The other thing is if Ramsay makes us better I don’t see what the problem is personally 

More to this too, I think to refind his confidence he needs to "get away" for a period. Smith said last season the pressure of the fee valuation was a big part of it. We've had similar comments before. Farke said Placheta was trying too hard - for example. Tzolis needed regular games and a bit of a fresh start that would give us the opportunity to bring him back in form - as Smith said.

This is all something of nothing IMHO. We have two loans this season so far. Hayden who has an option to buy that is not reliant upon promotion and Ramsey. That's it so far. Can't see that being a huge issue IMHO. 

Edited by chicken

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5 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Yep, it doesn’t work for us…. So develop our own!    All they need is regular opportunities then a good run of games.

Except the system does indeed work for us. We have sent several players out on loan this season precisely in order to facilitate their development. They are players not yet good enough to hold down a first team place at NCFC who would therefore lack the vital experience of genuine competitive first team football if we didn't loan them out. Saxon Earley scored for Stevenage last night, he wouldn't have made the bench for us. Have you already forgotten the effect of the loans of Maddison and Godfrey? 

The idea that we should develop our own by giving weaker players an extended run in the first team is simply bizarre. Name me a single team that sits its strongest players on the bench while it fields a weaker team in order to prioritise the development of youth over winning games. It doesn't happen because every team's priority is to win as many games as possible; that is the only business plan that makes any sense. 

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