It’s never to early to admit you have made a mistake

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

Under Farke we'd have passed round/ through them, their fouling would have been in more advantageous areas to us and I have every confidence we'd have won that game, Smiths game seems to be some kind of hybrid that has left everybody bereft of any clue of what the plan is ... Even the players by the looks of it. Even simple support and possession play seems laboured and uninstinctive. We could be waiting some time before this lot actually clicks.... If ever .

And that's coming from someone who has always advocated patience not panic.

 

[MORDENCANARY 71]

1 hour ago, Thumbbass said:

On paper the squad looks OK with the additional players brought in this window - however we still have a fairly wretched CM issue until the new lads are in the house. Look at any team in the world and the CDM/CM/AMC is what makes it tick, tempo and creativity wise, so trying to get a tune out of the squad will not happen until that is settled/sorted. 

We seem to have bought the right players in. I think I can be patient enough to see if they are what is missing. Unfortunately it seems that will be another few games. 

What's an AMC ?

[norfolkngood 1,086]

2 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Webber will never EVER admit he’s made a mistake 

 

17 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

The thought that a new coach is going to come in and make Sargeant, Rashica, Mclean, Sorensen, Idah, Dowell etc into a consistently well performing attractive side is just not based on reality.

Farke took us as far as he could , i think likely Webber has also 

i would gamble on another DOF to see if he can recruit better for the PL as that is a step to far for webber 

he has had 2 attempts at PL and failed twice 

Farke was a good Champs manager but PL was a step to far is it the same for webber ?

Webber is a great championship DOF but we need to push for one who can do both champs and get us better players for the PL if lucky enough to go up 

 

[Thumbbass 318]

4 minutes ago, MORDENCANARY said:

What's an AMC ?

Attacking central midfielder - that's my inner Championship manager 1998/99 showing its face. It's probably antiquated in terminology but what I was getting at was that the core of our team is currently inadequate, but, we appear to have bought/loaned exactly the right players to correct it. 

 

[corbs 147]

Did anyone notice that Mike Dean was asked who was the most difficult player to manage in his time as a ref? Yes, this is a tad off topic. Nevertheless Bellers was a nutty player, love that fighting spirit. 

[pete 319]

No fan of Smith's style but cannot think of any manager who could get a tune out of these players.  But Smith couldn't recognise how appalling we were on Saturday and did nothing to attempt to change it, substitutes may have been sub standard but doing the same ad nauseam is madness.  Probably ther best reason to get rid.

[All the Germans 1,075]

4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

The pre season games were never going to be an indication of anything.

First games of the season are notoriously no indication of how the season is going to go either. 

Next week against Wigan will be a more important clue as to how things are.

I agree with your general theme but struggle with the specifics that the single game against Cardiff is no indication but the single game against Wigan will be more important. How is one game more important than the other (answer: it isn't). I think what's more important is a group / run of games. If after 5 or 6 games we have looked and still look rubbish, well, that's different.

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

Mercedes has had a poor start to this season in F1. A lot of frustration and awaiting of upgrades etc but  things are now starting to gell. Norwich will be the same as new players are brought in and the squad and Management team adapt to this input. This takes time do you not all agree? It’s the 1st of August FFS.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I agree with you that they need to learn to cope with it better, but it's early in the season after a short pre-season. All I'm saying is being patient, treating Smith with a bit more respect, and letting them get on with it should be preferable to starting the coaching merry-go-round again after there seems to be a consensus that the last change was a mistake, even from a lot of people who were energetically agitating for the last change. 

Same pre season for every team and Cardiff had seven new starters in the team and they were pretty bang average at best. All our starting eleven had at least one season with us in the Prem.

Patience over a whole season of course. But you have to say what you see. And we were pretty tame and that is being kind. Cardiff are not a top team and are trying to change from McCarthy big boot to a passing game. No better time to play them.

So for me, its not about Wigan or Burnley. Its about what I saw Saturday and it was poor at best. And the criticism is justified by the performance. No pussyfooting around. Tell it straight. And we should have been better prepared and raring to get going. If we try walking it like we did Saturday we are in for a rude awakening.

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

12 minutes ago, Block Y Seat 176 said:

Mercedes has had a poor start to this season in F1. A lot of frustration and awaiting of upgrades etc but  things are now starting to gell. Norwich will be the same as new players are brought in and the squad and Management team adapt to this input. This takes time do you not all agree? It’s the 1st of August FFS.

I think there ought to be enough there at the club to be able to perform at a decent level and August the 1st or not, the players all know each other - all on Saturday have been at the club for at least a year - so to have a little expectation is only natural.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

22 minutes ago, Block Y Seat 176 said:

Mercedes has had a poor start to this season in F1. A lot of frustration and awaiting of upgrades etc but  things are now starting to gell. Norwich will be the same as new players are brought in and the squad and Management team adapt to this input. This takes time do you not all agree? It’s the 1st of August FFS.

 

Except a chap in tenth place still manage to pass them and beat them easily.

[lake district canary 4,531]

2 hours ago, All the Germans said:

I agree with your general theme but struggle with the specifics that the single game against Cardiff is no indication but the single game against Wigan will be more important. How is one game more important than the other (answer: it isn't). I think what's more important is a group / run of games. If after 5 or 6 games we have looked and still look rubbish, well, that's different.

Yeah, but I didn't mean it was more important as a match, just that it would offer a better guide to see where we are at. Play better and it gives some encouragement, play badly and on top of last Saturday's performance, it will start to look like we are likely to struggle.

Edited August 1, 2022 by lake district canary

[horsefly 4,298]

36 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Except a chap in tenth place still manage to pass them and beat them easily.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration KG. Did Cardiff have more than 1 deflected shot on target? Had Cantwell's effort gone in, or McClean's shot not come back off the bar, we would probably be saying it was a fair draw but that we must do significantly better at coping with teams deploying pretty brutal tactics. We have yet to see Smith's new signings, and the evidence suggests that they will add more quality, energy, and hustle in mid-field. It is also very likely there will be at least two more signings. Also we definitely missed the quality of Dowell against Cardiff, he is more than capable of providing the quick clever through balls that Pukki thrives upon, as well as himself attempting shots from outside the box. It took Farke quite some time to get the team firing in the Champs, I suspect Smith will be given less time, but clearly he will be given sufficient time to show the team is capable of pushing for promotion.

[horsefly 4,298]

Re the thread title: it is indeed, "never too early to admit you have made a mistake".

[kenfoggo 247]

Expectation management and excuses will abound this season as it becomes apparent even to the most blinkered of Supporters that Smith has no style, no way of motivating the squad and no idea of how to challenge in this league. Previous experience and results no longer count. He MAY have had some results at previous clubs but here and now is the only thing that matters. Smith and Shakespeare have been here long enough to imprint their ethos on the Club, if that ethos  is to continue losing and steadfastly refusing to score then they are raging successes. We should all expect better but in reality it looks unlikely that anything will improve.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

4 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

 

Farke took us as far as he could , i think likely Webber has also 

i would gamble on another DOF to see if he can recruit better for the PL as that is a step to far for webber 

he has had 2 attempts at PL and failed twice 

Farke was a good Champs manager but PL was a step to far is it the same for webber ?

Webber is a great championship DOF but we need to push for one who can do both champs and get us better players for the PL if lucky enough to go up 

 

They took us as far as anyone could without more investment. Equally, the level they have brought us to is ideal for attracting investment. As such, risking that for some stupid idea that anyone could get us to a higher level without more investment is simply moronic.

[Badger 2,405]

7 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Webber will never EVER admit he’s made a mistake 

Not many on on this board or twitter do either - they just change their username! 😉

[baldy09 156]

 - How well did city do -did they really compete and was there a full commitment from the players ie really fight for the team. was there an identify to the team play, if the answer was no in parts then perhaps there is something more  missing ?

[The Raptor 1,206]

Fine. I admit it. I came on the forum today thinking it won't be that bad. When I knew deep down it would be all doom and gloom and the end of the world. It's a mistake I made most weekends last year as well. Will I ever learn?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

7 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

So it's Smith's fault? Who bought the players Smith is working with? Did the messiah Farke get a tune out of them? Who gave Smith not a single new face in the first team Saturday? When will we see Hayden? 

Sacking Smith and getting in another fall guy whilst ignoring the failures of our 1st team recruitment is both idiotic and pointless. And how are we to pay for the management team exit? Thought we didn't have a magic money tree?

Let's face it. our season is now in the hands of two young South American footballers with zero experience of the EFL.

Well done Webber, take a bow.

 

Then again, the recruitment itself is hampered by what we can offer in terms of money and how attractive we are to players. Every player purchase is a gamble, that's just the way it is, and it should be remembered that last year's transfer window was badly affected by staff involved in that process leaving at the worst possible moment. Making a scapegoat out of Webber, who is a perfectly competent operator, is no more productive than making a scapegoat out of Smith; it is what it is. 

[norfolkngood 1,086]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

They took us as far as anyone could without more investment. Equally, the level they have brought us to is ideal for attracting investment. As such, risking that for some stupid idea that anyone could get us to a higher level without more investment is simply moronic.

yes Maybe you are right wait until we get some investment ,

i just think the Big money signings is just where he goes wrong 

when we had little money and it was Cheaper himself and Farke did so well 

Give him our PL money and the signings were terrible

i know the players was cheap by PL standards but for us they were a lot of money and he got them so so wrong 

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

7 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

The thought that a new coach is going to come in and make Sargeant, Rashica, Mclean, Sorensen, Idah, Dowell etc into a consistently well performing attractive side is just not based on reality.

I totally agree but nevertheless that is presumably exactly the premise that Webber acted on in sacking Farke and bringing in Smith.

Personally, I would like to see the back of Smith asap but the real problem is Webber, so a clean start without either of them is what I'd really like but can't see it happening any time soon.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

31 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

yes Maybe you are right wait until we get some investment ,

i just think the Big money signings is just where he goes wrong 

when we had little money and it was Cheaper himself and Farke did so well 

Give him our PL money and the signings were terrible

i know the players was cheap by PL standards but for us they were a lot of money and he got them so so wrong 

 

Personally, I think we may have been victims of our own success on the incredible bargains we had like Pukki and Buendia. That gave our scouting team a reputation of having an eye for a good deal, which has probably resulted in interest from Norwich immediately generating interest from elsewhere among people who may have more resources than us. 

 

21 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I totally agree but nevertheless that is presumably exactly the premise that Webber acted on in sacking Farke and bringing in Smith.

Personally, I would like to see the back of Smith asap but the real problem is Webber, so a clean start without either of them is what I'd really like but can't see it happening any time soon.

Clean start with whom though? Who is there who we're confident can do a better job? We're a yoyo club trying to cement ourselves in the Premier league against the odds on a shoestring budget. With Farke and Webber, we had all the ingredients to succeed on a shoestring if we had a decent amount of luck with us one season, and everything in place to make sure that we could bounce straight back when relegated. Now some uncertainty has been brought into that because Farke was removed, but ultimately I don't believe that Webber would have removed Farke if there hadn't been so much hostile noise being thrown in Farke's direction. 

Like Brexit, it's all very well being unhappy with what you have because you're struggling, but do you have a clue what you want instead?

Edited August 1, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

I just hope we are bloody brilliant or utter ****e (like Saturday). What we don't want is a win one lose one draw one scenario and languishing mid table.

I just have a gut feeling Smith isn't going to be here long, unless we pull off an absolute masterstroke in the remaining transfer window.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

23 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I just have a gut feeling Smith isn't going to be here long, unless we pull off an absolute masterstroke in the remaining transfer window.

Based on what, though?

This is the regime that kept Farke in the job despite the abysmal project restart. We are patient with our managers, and I don't think this should change.

I would expect Smith to be given time - and rightly so.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Terminally Yellow

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Based on what, though?

This is the regime that kept Farke in the job despite the abysmal project restart. We are patient with our managers, and I don't think this should change.

I would expect Smith to be given time - and rightly so.

5 managers in 10 years is not patience.

[Petriix 2,835]

8 hours ago, horsefly said:

Re the thread title: it is indeed, "never too early to admit you have made a mistake".

Indeed. It's never too early to learn that 'too' has two 'o's. 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Clean start with whom though? Who is there who we're confident can do a better job? We're a yoyo club trying to cement ourselves in the Premier league against the odds on a shoestring budget.

 

Fair question and I don't pretend to have a ready made answer - in reality those are questions that the board should be asking themselves.

It seems to me we have come full circle since Webber's appointment, we have experienced some fantastic successes and also some complete failures. Some facets of the football club are in a better state than they were prior to his appointment but actually on the pitch the picture looks really bleak and who knows what the finances will look like  over the next year or so - maybe some of Webber's signings will eventually come good but at the moment we look as though we will be writing off most of last summer's spending and our two biggest assets in Todd and Max are seriously devalued.

Hence the need for a clean start and IMO that means going back to basics - the board should be (have already!) undertaken a serious and in-depth review of whether they wish to continue with a Director of Football style model or whether they think we would do better with a more traditional British manager.

That is a decision that needs to be made before they even begin to think about who is best suited to work within whichever model they go for. Eighteen months ago it would have been a no-brainer to stick with the DoF model, today IMO it is anything but. 

Since Farke's sacking we seem to have been running a hybrid mixture which has been a total failure and probably the worst of all worlds, so I think we can expect things to continue to deteriorate further until the board has a proper drains up and decide where they want to go next.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

39 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Fair question and I don't pretend to have a ready made answer - in reality those are questions that the board should be asking themselves.

It seems to me we have come full circle since Webber's appointment, we have experienced some fantastic successes and also some complete failures. Some facets of the football club are in a better state than they were prior to his appointment but actually on the pitch the picture looks really bleak and who knows what the finances will look like  over the next year or so - maybe some of Webber's signings will eventually come good but at the moment we look as though we will be writing off most of last summer's spending and our two biggest assets in Todd and Max are seriously devalued.

Hence the need for a clean start and IMO that means going back to basics - the board should be (have already!) undertaken a serious and in-depth review of whether they wish to continue with a Director of Football style model or whether they think we would do better with a more traditional British manager.

That is a decision that needs to be made before they even begin to think about who is best suited to work within whichever model they go for. Eighteen months ago it would have been a no-brainer to stick with the DoF model, today IMO it is anything but. 

Since Farke's sacking we seem to have been running a hybrid mixture which has been a total failure and probably the worst of all worlds, so I think we can expect things to continue to deteriorate further until the board has a proper drains up and decide where they want to go next.

 

I don't believe it will get any better until we get outside investment or many more years of slow organic growth as we've achieved the last few years, whoever's runnnig the show, but it can get worse, and if we screw things up so that we slip from the level we've achieved, as that of a yo-yo club, that investment will never come and the progress we've made of recent years will be up in smoke. It is incredibly hard to get things as right as the club has done of recent years, but it's very easy to blow it and get it all spectacularly wrong by abandoning a coherent business strategy and flailing. 

Smith has a good track record. His Premier League record for Norwich is at least as good as Farke's overall, matching Farke's half-season best of 12 points in the only half season he was in charge. 

Farke's average points per game during his entire career at Norwich in the PL was 0.53; Smith's average for us is 0.63. That's 20% better. Judging only for last season, Farke's record was 0.45 points per game, so with the same players, Smith was 40% better. 

He's definitely different to Farke. It's possible his approach will get us promotion again and the differences will make us more competitive in the Premier League. There's enough on paper about Smith that suggests that could be the case.Demanding his head before the season has barely started without being really positive he can't do it, and we've had plenty of slow starts to successful seasons, strikes me as pretty dumb. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[kenfoggo 247]

Smith may have a “good track record” (whatever that may mean) with other clubs. But he is not being judged on one game in this season. His performance has to be seen in the context of all the games that he has been in control at this club, which includes the relegation of last season. His record at THIS club is unbelievably dire. Alarm  bells have been ringing for a considerable time under his tenure  .

Edited August 2, 2022 by kenfoggo