Is anyone convinced by Dean Smith?

[komakino 272]

1 hour ago, Galactico said:

Farke took over a club struggling badly on the field and off it, so of course he needed time, which he was rightly given, although it was a close run thing at times. Smith took over a team which had comfortably won the Championship just a few months earlier and had spent over £50 million in the transfer market. Has he improved a single player during his time in charge? Not that I can see. Bringing in injured players doesn't fill me with confidence, but he has to be given until the World Cup break at least. If we're not within striking distance of the top at that stage, he'll  have to go. I would hope Webber already has a  candidate or two in mind, although on past form I wouldn't bank on it.

Webber’s net spend was circa £20M, but was spent very, very badly. If things go wrong again, it should be him for the high jump, though Smith will inevitably carry the  can. 

[hogesar 9,618]

8 minutes ago, komakino said:

Webber’s net spend was circa £20M, but was spent very, very badly. If things go wrong again, it should be him for the high jump, though Smith will inevitably carry the  can. 

Smith has a good enough squad for playoffs bare minimum. Webber and the club have so far retained our better players in this window contrary to shouts of 'fire sale' by plenty on here despite getting it wrong last time. We've added to the squad whilst also getting two of our brightest prospects fit.

If Smith can't get these guys at least in the play offs, then that's on him not Webber.

As for why Webber is still here. Its likely because there's not a Sporting Director in the world with a similar Championship record to him. And, it was clear by the pathetic protest turnouts end of last season that the majority of the fanbase doesn't feel strong enough about getting rid of him or our owners.

[komakino 272]

Webber's record in the lower league has been as good as it has been bad in the EPL. 

Apart from he would have arguably been sacked at most other clubs due to his top tier failure and shall we say, hostile manner at public relations, it has left our hapless owners with a quandary - and any other potential investor coming on board:

Webber can cut in the second tier, but a spectacular failure in the top tier. So if we go up - a very big if - do we fire him on his past failures or give him some cash to make a mess of it again? Or do we carry on the cycle? Keeping a man in employment who fails his objective every other season is an interesting debate, 

As far as Smith goes, it is too easy to say he should at least get a play off place. There are a number of variables here; players that have previous got us up are still good enough and more importantly have the motivation to go through it all again. Secondly, Webber's failures that remain from last season are good enough in The Championship. Sargeant, for example,  might score 20 goals or 2. Or nothing. 

We have a disjointed squad that could still 'do the business', but my gut feeling is for Smith to perform to his best abilities, he needs some of his own signings here and under Webber he'll never have enough of them. Webber takes the plaudits and not the failure. In old F1, it was know as 'Cosworth' syndrome. 

Smith didn't sign this lot, Webber (more or less) did. That doesn't get Smith off the hook by a long chalk. However, the job he has this season is far harder than most people realise, yet it appears that most Norwich fans in general are not willing to give him the time that Farke took to get things moving. 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Smith has a good enough squad for playoffs bare minimum.

Not convinced at all that this squad is good enough for Top 6.    Fear we don’t have adequate creativity, pace or tenacity. This squad or moreover starting XI needs a freshen up.   We don’t have anything except Pukki and Cantwell that’s going to frighten opponents.    Am still expecting that Cantwell’s re-emergence will raise enough confidence for an EPL club to offer a sum we couldn’t refuse…. That happens, we’ll have even less threat!

Edited July 24, 2022 by ged in the onion bag

[The Real Buh 3,423]

we’re going to have to wait and see

but I’m really not sure 

[Petriix 2,834]

For me, the biggest issue is the preference for playing a 4-3-3 which, in my opinion, is a poor fit for the main weapons in our squad. Pukki thrives when there's either a number 10 or second striker to occupy the defenders and gets totally isolated when ploughing a lone furrow up front.

Pukki's biggest strength is his movement off the ball, early in the offensive transitions. To successfully utilise this, our midfielders need to be adept at picking early through-balls and rapidly moving the ball through the thirds.

Neither Rashica or Sargent naturally play to Pukki's movement, seeming to prefer to dribble and attack the channels. Cantwell's role was about picking up the ball and assisting the assist, but that doesn't seem to fit in the 4-3-3 either.

I can see the logic of signing a couple of more capable CMs to liberate the wide attackers to play higher. But it seems to me like more doubling down on the change of system rather than reverting to playing to our previous strengths. At best it's a massive gamble.

What I'm seeing from Dean Smith is an abject failure to get the best out of our players.

So far... But he's clearly not stupid. He needs time to make it work and the players need time to gel.

I don't expect immediate success so I'm willing to give it 10 games: the first 4 are for working out the best system and first choice team. The next 4 are about establishing a winning mentality. By game 8 we should be consistently dominating our opponents. If we're outside the top 6 by then, alam bells should be ringing. 

For the record, I was questioning Dean Smith before our defeat to Celtic.

[BigManInTheBarclay 75]

I don't see Smith as the one to impove the team and how it performs. He's used to a big budget and he's never going to get that here.

Preseason has shown he has no new ideas on how to improve the squad.

[hogesar 9,618]

57 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Not convinced at all that this squad is good enough for Top 6.    Fear we don’t have adequate creativity, pace or tenacity. This squad or moreover starting XI needs a freshen up.   We don’t have anything except Pukki and Cantwell that’s going to frighten opponents.    Am still expecting that Cantwell’s re-emergence will raise enough confidence for an EPL club to offer a sum we couldn’t refuse…. That happens, we’ll have even less threat!

How many teams in this division have better wide players than Rashica, Onel, Sargent and Sinani? Even Sinani was a play off finalist last season! Can you name them?

How many teams in this division have better number 10s than Cantwell and Dowell?

How many teams in this division have a better striker than Pukki?

Then ask how many teams have better attacking fullbacks than Max and Gianoullis.

Can you name them?

I cant find more than at best 3 or 4 and that's being generous to other teams.

Thats without acknowledging we have one of the best CBs in the division.

If you can name them I'm happy to be proven wrong but since I can only name 3 or 4 at an absolute push I suggest we should be in the playoffs minimum with this side.

[Captain Holt 520]

If we're going nowhere with no clear vision of how we're trying to play after 6 games then he needs to go. He's not shown me anything so far to suggest his style of football is anything other than plodding shiiyte

Edited July 24, 2022 by Captain Holt

[TIL 1010 4,722]

48 minutes ago, hogesar said:

How many teams in this division have better wide players than Rashica, Onel, Sargent and Sinani? Even Sinani was a play off finalist last season! Can you name them?

How many teams in this division have better number 10s than Cantwell and Dowell?

How many teams in this division have a better striker than Pukki?

Then ask how many teams have better attacking fullbacks than Max and Gianoullis.

Can you name them?

I cant find more than at best 3 or 4 and that's being generous to other teams.

Thats without acknowledging we have one of the best CBs in the division.

If you can name them I'm happy to be proven wrong but since I can only name 3 or 4 at an absolute push I suggest we should be in the playoffs minimum with this side.

Well before your time hoggy but if what you say is true maybe Dean Smith is Eric Morecambe.

 

 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

53 minutes ago, hogesar said:

How many teams in this division have better wide players than Rashica, Onel, Sargent and Sinani? Even Sinani was a play off finalist last season! Can you name them?

How many teams in this division have better number 10s than Cantwell and Dowell?

How many teams in this division have a better striker than Pukki?

Then ask how many teams have better attacking fullbacks than Max and Gianoullis.

Can you name them?

I cant find more than at best 3 or 4 and that's being generous to other teams.

Thats without acknowledging we have one of the best CBs in the division.

If you can name them I'm happy to be proven wrong but since I can only name 3 or 4 at an absolute push I suggest we should be in the playoffs minimum with this side.

Thats pure opinion on your part and we’re both entitled to those…. For example, what evidence is there that Rashica, Sargent (come on!), Onel and Sinani are actually better than other players in this league?    What have they done to demonstrate that?    Onel (I like Onel) hardly played two years ago, Sinani has one year at this level, did reasonably well but was inconsistent and Huddersfield didn’t take up the apparent option…. Sargent is technically deficient and on the significant evidence so far, simply not very good.   Rashica, granted, looks to have potential but he’s done nothing yet and doesn’t look like his game is suited to Teemu’s evidence by the limited chances created.    
 

Are you so familiar with all the other teams players that you can confidently proclaim this to be fact?    That’s pretty impressive if you are.  
 

As for Dowell, what has he done again?   All I’ve seen in 3 years is a wonder free-kick v Derby!   Couldn’t get in the team 2 seasons ago, nor last season, couldn’t get in one of the worst EPL teams to grace the division…. He’s not quick or consistent, how can you argue he’s one of the best no.10s in the league?    Where’s the evidence?    
 

Will Todd be with us?   Let’s hope so!   
 

You're response here is typical of many Norwich fans who think this is all too easy!    That kind of expectation is unhealthy if the team can’t produce and have a crisis of confidence that last season may have inflicted!    Are these players really good enough?   Time will tell!   

 

[chicken 2,605]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

Pukki thrives when there's either a number 10 or second striker to occupy the defenders and gets totally isolated when ploughing a lone furrow up front.

Pukki's biggest strength is his movement off the ball, early in the offensive transitions. To successfully utilise this, our midfielders need to be adept at picking early through-balls and rapidly moving the ball through the thirds.

Sort of. Pukki has thrived the most when we have played a 4-2-3-1, the formation Farke stuck with. I would say in that time in that formation he was playing the loan striker role very well.

As I've said elsewhere, and where I agree with you, is that his movement is his main weapon, along with finishing itself. When we have played with the three attacking midfielders in the past we have opted for a bit of height with Stiepermann with the idea that he is somewhat of a target if needed, for flick ons and for being strong and holding up the ball. Typically we haven't played with a single number 10. Buendia was usually on the right with Cantwell usually on the left.

For me, what worked well with that was that you had three players capable of passing, and progressing the ball quickly. Which meant that they could build play and complete the quick passes as you say we need, which I agree with.

I don't think we can read too much into anything yet though. Against Marseille we generally did pass the ball a bit quicker. The transitions were faster. In the second half especially we looked to get the ball into the box quickly which worked. 

[chicken 2,605]

1 minute ago, ged in the onion bag said:

As for Dowell, what has he done again?   All I’ve seen in 3 years is a wonder free-kick v Derby!   Couldn’t get in the team 2 seasons ago, nor last season, couldn’t get in one of the worst EPL teams to grace the division…. 

Slight correction there, he spent a large chunk of that season injured and when he came back and played regularly was scoring and assisting fairly consistently. That comes with the caveat that the team was clearly in good form and it is much easier for a player to join in and contribute to a successful team full of confidence. Just "couldn't get in the team" is a bit of a stretch when he was injured.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

23 minutes ago, chicken said:

Slight correction there, he spent a large chunk of that season injured and when he came back and played regularly was scoring and assisting fairly consistently. That comes with the caveat that the team was clearly in good form and it is much easier for a player to join in and contribute to a successful team full of confidence. Just "couldn't get in the team" is a bit of a stretch when he was injured.

So rather than debate the general point you’d rather play ‘let’s find fault’ with a pretty tame point since he’s made 2 career assists with us!   What’s with all the usual rational posters going all argumentative.    Has this forum finally done it’s worst?

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

1 hour ago, BigManInTheBarclay said:

I don't see Smith as the one to impove the team and how it performs. He's used to a big budget and he's never going to get that here.

Preseason has shown he has no new ideas on how to improve the squad.

Used to a big budget?  He’s managed the best part of 600 games, only a quarter were at Villa, most were at Walsall and Brentford with very little budget. 

[Indy 3,286]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

How many teams in this division have better wide players than Rashica, Onel, Sargent and Sinani? Even Sinani was a play off finalist last season! Can you name them?

How many teams in this division have better number 10s than Cantwell and Dowell?

How many teams in this division have a better striker than Pukki?

Then ask how many teams have better attacking fullbacks than Max and Gianoullis.

Can you name them?

I cant find more than at best 3 or 4 and that's being generous to other teams.

Thats without acknowledging we have one of the best CBs in the division.

If you can name them I'm happy to be proven wrong but since I can only name 3 or 4 at an absolute push I suggest we should be in the playoffs minimum with this side.

So if Smith starts off with a string of poor results it’s not the squad then? Are you expecting nothing else than a good start and top finish, as I think you are pretty confident in Smith, are you surmising that we have the best squad and best manager in this division?

[Indy 3,286]

12 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Used to a big budget?  He’s managed the best part of 600 games, only a quarter were at Villa, most were at Walsall and Brentford with very little budget. 

And only has one promotion on his resume! Not exactly a great record! That through the play off way behind a team cobbled together by Farke & Webber!

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

Promotions are only really a measure if that is what is ‘expected’ - neither were the main aim at Walsall or Brentford when he was there, and at Villa it was hard to be promoted once you’ve already taken the side into the top flight….

Edited July 24, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[canarydan23 4,060]

38 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

So rather than debate the general point you’d rather play ‘let’s find fault’ with a pretty tame point since he’s made 2 career assists with us!   What’s with all the usual rational posters going all argumentative.    Has this forum finally done it’s worst?

Are you genuinely saying you don't think Dowell played well at the back end of our last Championship season? Genuinely? Did you watch many/any games? He was excellent.

[Indy 3,286]

Even though he spent the best part of £150 million and got sacked by Villa! I don’t understand why so many rate Smith so highly, he’s certainly an amiable guy who I’d like to see do well, but my honest view is he’s a yes type of guy who is happy to be middle ground and has no real drive or overall grasp of his own standards in coaching. He’s been here 8 months and I still haven’t seen much improvement in the squad, development or a sideway shift to say this is how we are set up and how we will play.

Time will tell, Cardiff will certainly be a very big result either way, get off to a positive start and move forwards uniting the club or lose and the fragility off the back off last season may come back, it’s difficult to break a losing mentality without major squad or mindset change in playing style! I’m still not seeing any settled system or first team, none of us can be certain in who will start Saturday.

The positive we have is some very good young players who I believe will certainly make an impact into our first team squad and that’s great to see our youth set up working so we’ll. That’s why I would have loved us go after Robins as our manager.

[canarydan23 4,060]

11 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Promotions are only really a measure if that is what is ‘expected’ - neither were the main aim at Walsall or Brentford when he was there, and at Villa it was hard to be promoted once you’ve already taken the side into the top flight….

I give you the Walsall one, but Brentford finished in the playoffs the season before Dean Smith took over, and did so the first full season after he left.

[alex_ncfc 649]

Still don't feel like Dean Smith fits at the club, and not sure it'll ever change. It's like there's no connection, everything feels a bit forced. Probably because he blatantly was not our "first choice" to replace Farke and for Webber to suggest otherwise is an insult to fans intelligence. 

I can't see him being here for long. 

[Indy 3,286]

10 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Are you genuinely saying you don't think Dowell played well at the back end of our last Championship season? Genuinely? Did you watch many/any games? He was excellent.

He was, now where is he pre season? Injured again? Is he strong enough to rely playing a full season in the championship? Certainly has the game in him, but like other fragility is a question mark!

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,249]

And only has one promotion on his resume! 

More than a certain Daniel Farke, when we hired him 🥴

[Indy 3,286]

14 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

And only has one promotion on his resume! 

More than a certain Daniel Farke, when we hired him 🥴

We weren’t in the premiership with on paper a far stronger squad after two seasons in the premiership with money, updated training facilities! No improvements since taking over….why hire a sacked manager who failed while spending far more funds in the same league? Not to mention Villa should have been relegated the first season and Smith would have gone then, only thanks to a major blunder by the officials saved him. I just don’t get the fans who have such positive support for him? Just my opinion and makes absolutely no odds on anything……..I don’t make the choices as coach or manager for our club, but can only pass comment 👍💚💛

Edited July 24, 2022 by Indy

[Canaries north 151]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

How many teams in this division have better wide players than Rashica, Onel, Sargent and Sinani? Even Sinani was a play off finalist last season! Can you name them?

How many teams in this division have better number 10s than Cantwell and Dowell?

How many teams in this division have a better striker than Pukki?

Then ask how many teams have better attacking fullbacks than Max and Gianoullis.

Can you name them?

I cant find more than at best 3 or 4 and that's being generous to other teams.

Thats without acknowledging we have one of the best CBs in the division.

If you can name them I'm happy to be proven wrong but since I can only name 3 or 4 at an absolute push I suggest we should be in the playoffs minimum with this side.

Just looking at this with my Watford friend. Sarr and Dennis for wide players I would take over our wide players, they have turned down a few bids already for them. I would also take Pedro at number 10 to be honest. Pukki is hands down the winner up front. Also Kamara at left back looks very good, got player of the season after signing in January. I only use Watford as my best friend is a fan and I know a lot more about them than other teams in the championship so who knows who else is out there.  He also knows more about the Norwich squad than a lot of Norwich fans as well. He is really keen on Omobamideli but that's no surprise. 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

28 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

Still don't feel like Dean Smith fits at the club, and not sure it'll ever change. It's like there's no connection, everything feels a bit forced. Probably because he blatantly was not our "first choice" to replace Farke and for Webber to suggest otherwise is an insult to fans intelligence. 

I can't see him being here for long. 

Our manager history isn’t rich in successful yet connected to us looking back at this. At worst Smith is so far a bit meh. No time to show it fully and jury out still of course, but I’d say he is middling for us and whatever there is available for us now I’m pretty confident would be a backward step unless we were to unearth a gem. 

[Monty13 2,229]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

For me, the biggest issue is the preference for playing a 4-3-3 which, in my opinion, is a poor fit for the main weapons in our squad. Pukki thrives when there's either a number 10 or second striker to occupy the defenders and gets totally isolated when ploughing a lone furrow up front.

Pukki's biggest strength is his movement off the ball, early in the offensive transitions. To successfully utilise this, our midfielders need to be adept at picking early through-balls and rapidly moving the ball through the thirds.

Neither Rashica or Sargent naturally play to Pukki's movement, seeming to prefer to dribble and attack the channels. Cantwell's role was about picking up the ball and assisting the assist, but that doesn't seem to fit in the 4-3-3 either.

I can see the logic of signing a couple of more capable CMs to liberate the wide attackers to play higher. But it seems to me like more doubling down on the change of system rather than reverting to playing to our previous strengths. At best it's a massive gamble.

What I'm seeing from Dean Smith is an abject failure to get the best out of our players.

So far... But he's clearly not stupid. He needs time to make it work and the players need time to gel.

I don't expect immediate success so I'm willing to give it 10 games: the first 4 are for working out the best system and first choice team. The next 4 are about establishing a winning mentality. By game 8 we should be consistently dominating our opponents. If we're outside the top 6 by then, alam bells should be ringing. 

For the record, I was questioning Dean Smith before our defeat to Celtic.

Considering Pukki will likely be gone next summer building a team around his style of play seems a poor move.

Doesnt mean you drop Pukki but it is time to start planning on life without him.

[Indy 3,286]

9 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Our manager history isn’t rich in successful yet connected to us looking back at this. At worst Smith is so far a bit meh. No time to show it fully and jury out still of course, but I’d say he is middling for us and whatever there is available for us now I’m pretty confident would be a backward step unless we were to unearth a gem. 

It’s always difficult to say any manager or coach will be a success, but for me Robins has worked miracles at Coventry taking them from fourth division to the second through testing times off field not having a ground, sharing, has links to us and certainly from when I’ve seen them play look to play good football. I’d have pulled out all stops to get him in here if I was in charge. Just me………thinking the right manager and fit for our club, someone with a club on the rise not just sacked!

[hogesar 9,618]

3 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Thats pure opinion on your part and we’re both entitled to those…. For example, what evidence is there that Rashica, Sargent (come on!), Onel and Sinani are actually better than other players in this league?    What have they done to demonstrate that?    Onel (I like Onel) hardly played two years ago, Sinani has one year at this level, did reasonably well but was inconsistent and Huddersfield didn’t take up the apparent option…. Sargent is technically deficient and on the significant evidence so far, simply not very good.   Rashica, granted, looks to have potential but he’s done nothing yet and doesn’t look like his game is suited to Teemu’s evidence by the limited chances created.    
 

Are you so familiar with all the other teams players that you can confidently proclaim this to be fact?    That’s pretty impressive if you are.  
 

As for Dowell, what has he done again?   All I’ve seen in 3 years is a wonder free-kick v Derby!   Couldn’t get in the team 2 seasons ago, nor last season, couldn’t get in one of the worst EPL teams to grace the division…. He’s not quick or consistent, how can you argue he’s one of the best no.10s in the league?    Where’s the evidence?    
 

Will Todd be with us?   Let’s hope so!   
 

You're response here is typical of many Norwich fans who think this is all too easy!    That kind of expectation is unhealthy if the team can’t produce and have a crisis of confidence that last season may have inflicted!    Are these players really good enough?   Time will tell!   

 

I watched alot of the Championship last season because other than our matches my care factor for the Premier League is zero.

I'm also looking at the history of our players, several of which are 2x title winners at this level. Those new signings I'm looking at what they've done in comparable leagues.

Again, if you can name 6 or 7 sides with better players in key positions then that would be an opinion that differs from my opinion. That's fine but so far you've not been able to do that so I wonder what your comparison is on?