Who Did You Vote For in GE 2019?

[sonyc 5,517]

1 minute ago, Naturalcynic said:

Grandson of a miner, great-grandson of both and for many generations previously.

Well, me too (Welsh in my case on my mother's aide...and it's been a very strong influence on my politics too - from a great uncle who used to tell me the stories of life in the valleys and from my grandad who  explained the background to the Tonypandy riots too). Then, through work you get a sense of how things are. 

Strangely there was an interesting YouTube John Pilger video posted this morning on FB "Conversations with a working man" think it was called...set in a textile factory less than a mile away from where I live now. Worth a watch.

[Herman 9,758]

6 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

I haven’t stated how I voted, so you’re making assumptions.  However, I’m always intrigued when people talk about “progressive” parties.  Does this really mean any party that isn’t Conservative?  Are the SNP, a party of devout separatist nationalists, really “progressive”?  Because it seems to me that if you’re so quick to lump all of these parties together then either there are no real policy differences between them, or all you care about is getting rid of the Tories.  

In my opinion any party left or central tend to be progressive and want to improve the lives of as many people as possible. The SNP have the Scottish people and country as their main focus but I still see them as progressive. The right wing parties tend to be regressive, harking bark to mythical golden ages and focused on the business and moneyed members of the public. And their policies over the last decade have backed this up.

And finally, yes, at the moment all I care about is getting rid of the tories before the country is unlivable for working people like me.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

8 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

 Because it seems to me that if you’re so quick to lump all of these parties together then either there are no real policy differences between them, or all you care about is getting rid of the Tories.  

Think you are half right and half wrong there - quite wrong to suggest there are no policy differences between the opposition parties because there quite clearly are and on some pretty big issues.

Nevertheless, there is also a lot of overlap on many issues and any of the opposition parties or a combination of some them would be huge improvement over the series of utterly abysmal Tory governments we've suffered under for the last 12 years.

So, I wouldn't put it quite the way you have (it certainly isn't 'all I care about') but you are essentially right that the overriding priority for the majority of voters in this country is to get rid of the Tories.

Unfortunately, our dysfunctional electoral system means that what the majority want is largely irrelevant - something the current HoC demonstrates beautifully, GE 2019 - Tory vote share 43.6%, Tory MPs share 56%.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Creative Midfielder

[Naturalcynic 629]

4 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Think you are half right and half wrong there - quite wrong to suggest there are no policy differences between the opposition parties because there quite clearly are and on some pretty big issues.

Nevertheless there is also a lot of overlap on many issues and any of the opposition parties or a combination of some them would be huge improvement over the series of utterly abyssmal Tory governments we've suffered under for the last 12 years.

So I wouldn't put it quite the way you have (it certainly isn't 'all I care about') but you are essentially right that the overridding priority for the majority of voters in this country is to get rid of the Tories.

Unfortunately our dysfunctional electoral system means that what the majority want is largely irrelevant - something the current HoC demonstrates beautifully, GE 2019 - Tory vote share 43.6%, Tory MPs share 56%.

Or in Scotland the SNP got 81% of seats but only 45% of the vote.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

9 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Think you are half right and half wrong there - quite wrong to suggest there are no policy differences between the opposition parties because there quite clearly are and on some pretty big issues.

Nevertheless, there is also a lot of overlap on many issues and any of the opposition parties or a combination of some them would be huge improvement over the series of utterly abysmal Tory governments we've suffered under for the last 12 years.

So, I wouldn't put it quite the way you have (it certainly isn't 'all I care about') but you are essentially right that the overriding priority for the majority of voters in this country is to get rid of the Tories.

Unfortunately, our dysfunctional electoral system means that what the majority want is largely irrelevant - something the current HoC demonstrates beautifully, GE 2019 - Tory vote share 43.6%, Tory MPs share 56%.

Just remember, FPTP was dysfunctional before 1997, worked perfectly from 1997-2010, then became dysfunctional again in 2010. 

[Van wink 2,994]

Greens

[Van wink 2,994]

5 hours ago, sonyc said:

Well, me too (Welsh in my case on my mother's aide...and it's been a very strong influence on my politics too - from a great uncle who used to tell me the stories of life in the valleys and from my grandad who  explained the background to the Tonypandy riots too). Then, through work you get a sense of how things are. 

Strangely there was an interesting YouTube John Pilger video posted this morning on FB "Conversations with a working man" think it was called...set in a textile factory less than a mile away from where I live now. Worth a watch.

Have you read "How Green was my Valley" yet?

[Van wink 2,994]

On 22/07/2022 at 15:09, Nuff Said said:

You do realise that there’s only about 20 posters who look at Non-Football?

And most of them are related to Billy

Edited July 29, 2022 by Van wink
or are Billy

[sonyc 5,517]

44 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Have you read "How Green was my Valley" yet?

I did yes🙂 plus seen both film versions. Enjoyed the book more  (found more ancestors too since). The uncertain relationships between owners and workers has not really changed I don't think. Perhaps they never will.

...But not been able to get hold of Cordell's Rape of the Fair Country as yet. It was one of your recommendations from the first lockdown I believe.

[Van wink 2,994]

7 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I did yes🙂 plus seen both film versions. Enjoyed the book more  (found more ancestors too since). The uncertain relationships between owners and workers has not really changed I don't think. Perhaps they never will.

...But not been able to get hold of Cordell's Rape of the Fair Country as yet. It was one of your recommendations from the first lockdown I believe.

Thats a shame, 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133748057067

you will love it.

( sorry I meant Rape of the Fair Country, too much Friday wine )

Edited July 29, 2022 by Van wink

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

17 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Or in Scotland the SNP got 81% of seats but only 45% of the vote.

Exactly, because of the same dysfunctional and totally unfair system that the UK runs for all GEs.

However in the latest election to the Scottish Parliament the SNP got 50.6% of the votes and 49.6% of the seats -  whilst it must have been slightly galling to them that they didn't also get a majority of seats, it is neverthless a far fairer and more genuinely representative result than any result that the antique and discredited UK General Election process ever produces.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

17 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Just remember, FPTP was dysfunctional before 1997, worked perfectly from 1997-2010, then became dysfunctional again in 2010. 

Hardly, FPTP has always been dysfunctional IMO - certainly during my voting lifetime anyway (i.e. the last 50 years 🙁)

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Hardly, FPTP has always been dysfunctional IMO - certainly during my voting lifetime anyway (i.e. the last 50 years 🙁)

I agree completely; I was indulging in a facetious pop at the Labour party's history on the subject. 

[Naturalcynic 629]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Exactly, because of the same dysfunctional and totally unfair system that the UK runs for all GEs.

However in the latest election to the Scottish Parliament the SNP got 50.6% of the votes and 49.6% of the seats -  whilst it must have been slightly galling to them that they didn't also get a majority of seats, it is neverthless a far fairer and more genuinely representative result than any result that the antique and discredited UK General Election process ever produces.

I don’t disagree with you about the FPTP system, although in its favour it does usually produce a majority government instead of having to cobble together an impotent coalition of the vaguely willing.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I agree completely; I was indulging in a facetious pop at the Labour party's history on the subject. 

And why not, even the 'new' Labour party, despite some good initiatives and policies ever suceeded in dragging either the UK or indeed itself fully into the 21st century.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

41 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I don’t disagree with you about the FPTP system, although in its favour it does usually produce a majority government instead of having to cobble together an impotent coalition of the vaguely willing.

Trouble is, it produces a majority that represents a minority of votes - in my lifetime there have been a number of governments, both Tory and Labour, who recorded less than a 40% vote share - in 2005 Labour won with 35.6% and still got a 66 seat majority!!

How can that possibly be right or democratic?

I also think you are quite wrong to assume coalitions are impotent, a lot (a majority I think) of European countries are run by coalitions and whilst it is fair to say there are some problems - the Belgians are famously slow to actually put together a working coalition after an election, Italian coalitions seem pretty unstable (though I think that is more a reflection of the Italians themselves than the nature of their governance, they really love regular elections 😁) .

But if you look around Europe, and especially northern Europe, most coalitions seem to work pretty well and certainly better than governments in the UK. The other point I think is that the coalitions tend to be long term, and therefore governments tend to plan and govern for the longer term - something that has always been lacking in UK governments who have never (Labour post war government excepted) planned or acted for the long or even mid term, and since Johnson came to power the future doesn't seemed to have existed at all beyond tomorrow's headlines in the Fail and Torygraph.

[sonyc 5,517]

Agree CM. Just imagine... if we were to have a coalition government in the UK in the near future, voted in through a STV type system then this Non Football Forum would become all but extinct 😂 It would be a mass love in😂. I'm not sure I could actually face it....

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Agree CM. Just imagine... if we were to have a coalition government in the UK in the near future, voted in through a STV type system then this Non Football Forum would become all but extinct 😂 It would be a mass love in😂. I'm not sure I could actually face it....

True, but it would be a price worth paying! 😄

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

7 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

I don’t disagree with you about the FPTP system, although in its favour it does usually produce a majority government instead of having to cobble together an impotent coalition of the vaguely willing.

That's not always a bad thing. There seems to be a rather irrational fear of coalition governments, but that's another side-effect of our crap model. You'll often find in most other Western European countries that coalitions are far more common.

What you'll also find is that there's a bit more compromise involved. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by TheGunnShow