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TheBaldOne66

Another injured signing!

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It would seem not only Hayden won’t be fit for the start of the season but Sara will be staying in Brazil for another 3 weeks for rehabilitation!

Why are we signing players on loan to NOT play? I get they are cheap, maybe there’s a clue before we sign them why they are cheap by the way!

How do they pass medical too?

We all know the club is strapped for cash but to keep signing crocked players is bizarre! 

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23 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

It would seem not only Hayden won’t be fit for the start of the season but Sara will be staying in Brazil for another 3 weeks for rehabilitation!

Why are we signing players on loan to NOT play? I get they are cheap, maybe there’s a clue before we sign them why they are cheap by the way!

How do they pass medical too?

We all know the club is strapped for cash but to keep signing crocked players is bizarre! 

Which of the following never had an injury: Huckerby, Hoolahan, Buendia, Krull, etc, etc, etc, etc? Players get injured, that's a simple fact of football. If you didn't sign footballers unless they had a proven record of no injuries then you wouldn't be signing any footballers ever. Players pass medicals because the medical evidence shows their injury to be temporary and not career threatening. Hayden and Sara are not being bought as permanently "crocked" seconds from Habitat. 

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It's a concern. We're effectively going into a new season after a pitiful relegation with zero first xi signings available to make an impact straight away.

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I think the medically trained staff that undertake thorough medical examinations for potential assets costing millions will have the most informed idea about whether the players are crocked or have a good chance of a full recovery.

I tend to defer to the experts in such matters as I know FA about it. Players could easily go on to have complications or further injuries but every player is at risk of this at all times 

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19 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I think the medically trained staff that undertake thorough medical examinations for potential assets costing millions will have the most informed idea about whether the players are crocked or have a good chance of a full recovery.

I tend to defer to the experts in such matters as I know FA about it. Players could easily go on to have complications or further injuries but every player is at risk of this at all times 

Agree with this 

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If Hayden didn't have this question mark over him regarding the injury, he probably wouldn't be playing in the Championship. He'd also likely be too expensive.

Similarly, if Hanley was slightly better on the ball, if Aarons was taller, if Pukki was younger and if Dowell was more physical, they probably wouldn't be playing in the Championship either. Pretty much every player at this level has a slight question mark that makes the big clubs think twice, which is why they're still playing in this division. 

I'm not going to lie, I do have my slight reservations over the injury records of these two, because we signed Normann with a problem and Byram with a terrible injury history, and both of these have had fitness/injury issues. Even Krul had a sketchy history and he has missed more games in his time here through injury than the average keeper.

But if we didn't sign 'crocked' players, we'd have to sign worse players, and I'm sure people would moan at that as well. 

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2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Which of the following never had an injury: Huckerby, Hoolahan, Buendia, Krull, etc, etc, etc, etc? Players get injured, that's a simple fact of football. If you didn't sign footballers unless they had a proven record of no injuries then you wouldn't be signing any footballers ever. Players pass medicals because the medical evidence shows their injury to be temporary and not career threatening. Hayden and Sara are not being bought as permanently "crocked" seconds from Habitat. 

Did we sign any of those while they were injured? No. 
 

Yes players get injured while playing but to sign them whilst injured is extremely risky. And at a time when we allegedly have little money, yet we are going to pay them even when they are recovering BEFORE they pull on a shirt for us. Bizarre.

If it works out great but look at how it turned out with Normann!

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On balance, over the past decade at least, our recruitment strategy has been largely successful. That doesn't mean the majority of signings have worked, just the minority of successes have been disproportionately good; a large number of low risk, high reward gambles.

That's fine if you're able to endure the chance of failure and give these players with potential a chance to sink or swim. The risk with that approach is that it takes a lot of time. And, while we're finding out which players don't make the grade, we're also unsuccessful as a team.

Recently we've been attempting an alternative, higher risk/higher immediate reward approach by paying bigger fees for supposedly better players. It's hard to argue at this point that this has been a success with just 3 league goals coming from ~ £25M of attackers.

The try-before-you-buy route is obviously appealing because it mitigates against the largest part of the failure: if we're unsuccessful then we avoid the bluk of the transfer fee and wages. But we're seeing the limitations on a number of levels.

These loan players are not necessarily committed to the fate of the club - we saw this with Normann in his attitude on the pitch. They've often suffered injuries, lost form or just fallen out of favour at their current club so they are arriving with a big question mark rather than being able to hit the ground running.

This obviously leaves us on the back foot when trying to field a competitive, cohesive team - at least initially while we're waiting for things to fall into place, and last season it simply never did.

Having said all that, the big positive from signing injured players of a higher ability is that, once they're fit, they can be really good. The trick is to only play them once they are genuinely fit again.

If they aren't even in the squad then we've not really lost anything. As long as we don't make the same mistake as with Normann and play a half fit player in a key role. However, it is alarming that we're attempting to resolve our biggest area of deficiency (central midfield) with two injured players. Only time will tell whether this proves to be a mistake.

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I'd like to see a breakdown of the signings made by English clubs in a (or several) summer tranfer window to see how many players who move clubs do so whilst carrying some kind of injury. Wouldn't be surprised if its much higher than people think.

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1 minute ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Yes players get injured while playing but to sign them whilst injured is extremely risky.

The reason the club employs expensive medical staff and services is precisely to judge any risk involved. It's medical science, not rocket science. To miss out on an excellent player because he has a temporary injury also runs the risk of missing out on someone who might otherwise transform the squad. If the medical experts say his injury is temporary and represents no real risk why would you write a player off?

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2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Which of the following never had an injury: Huckerby, Hoolahan, Buendia, Krull, etc, etc, etc, etc? Players get injured, that's a simple fact of football. If you didn't sign footballers unless they had a proven record of no injuries then you wouldn't be signing any footballers ever. Players pass medicals because the medical evidence shows their injury to be temporary and not career threatening. Hayden and Sara are not being bought as permanently "crocked" seconds from Habitat. 

The thing with operations you or i or even doctors can not say 100 % if there will be no ill effect 

Doctors can say yes the operation went well and all fixed but until they play regular football again nobody knows 

i am sure medical staff doctors thought Matt jarvis would recover he did but not to what he was before 

100's of players have recovered 100 % from injuries but 100's have not nobody can be certain about the these players 

i would say the most worrying thing is the club do not have 6 million to spend on him even though we have been in the PL !! 

Edited by norfolkngood
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1 minute ago, norfolkngood said:

The thing with operations you or i or even doctors can not say 100 % if there will be no ill effect 

Doctors can say yes the operation went well and all fixed but until they play regular football again nobody knows 

i am sure medical staff doctors thought Matt jarvis would recover he did but not to what he was before 

100's of players have recovered 100 % from injuries but 100's have not nobody can be certain about the these players 

Jarvis is hardly evidence what normally happens. If we can't trust the opinion of the medical experts we employ and use the example of someone like Jarvis as an excuse for a precautionary principle, then there will be very few future transfers. 

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Just now, horsefly said:

Jarvis is hardly evidence what normally happens. If we can't trust the opinion of the medical experts we employ and use the example of someone like Jarvis as an excuse for a precautionary principle, then there will be very few future transfers. 

Well just like you can not just pick the ones that have recovered like i said 

100 's have recovered 100's have not 

until they play you will never know 

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2 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

Well just like you can not just pick the ones that have recovered like i said 

100 's have recovered 100's have not 

until they play you will never know 

So, you actually think your simplistic statement, "100's [sic] have recovered 100's have not" should dictate our transfer policy, rather than the judgement of medical experts in each individual case?

(just to remind you, re your example of Jarvis; he was bought after a successful period on loan at the club.)

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Probably going to be another transfer window where we fail to properly address the CDM position…..most competitive teams have them including some form of back up.    If this Hayden (who isn’t our player) gets crocked, where does that leave us?   Would appear they have little confidence in Sorensen.  

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4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

So, you actually think your simplistic statement, "100's [sic] have recovered 100's have not" should dictate our transfer policy, rather than the judgement of medical experts in each individual case?

(just to remind you, re your example of Jarvis; he was bought after a successful period on loan at the club.)

no what i am saying ( or trying to say )  and using the example nobody knows what happens after a injury 

after he gets a hard tackle in that area or he plays 20 games is the only way of telling 

take hayden had a op now something has flared up could be minor could be serious we will have to wait and see 

 

 

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1 minute ago, norfolkngood said:

no what i am saying ( or trying to say )  and using the example nobody knows what happens after a injury 

after he gets a hard tackle in that area or he plays 20 games is the only way of telling 

take hayden had a op now something has flared up could be minor could be serious we will have to wait and see 

 

 

Indeed! Precisely why the club employs medical experts to give them the best advice possible regarding injury prognosis. That, and that alone is the appropriate data on which to judge risk regarding transfers. Nobody knows for certain that a player isn't going to get his leg cut off in a freak lawnmower accident, but nobody thinks that a risk of any relevance. Medical experts can't typically guarantee that an injury might never become complicated in the future but they usually have plenty of evidence in their assessment of the likelihood of that happening.

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We spent half last season with the club saying our poor form was due to a bad pre season.

fine, these players might be ok later on but the pre season is already out of the window .

same again then ?

 

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3 hours ago, Yobocop said:

Agree with this 

I watched Ben fosters podcast he did with the arsenal/england medical guy, Lewin I think.

He was saying that it's not just a pass or fail thing. It's calculating the risk of an injury etc.

He was saying arsenal signed a player for 5m and his medical brought up that this guy had a knee injury which was going to get worse in a number of years, they sold him for 25m three years later and he retired through a knee injury 18 months after.

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1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

The thing with operations you or i or even doctors can not say 100 % if there will be no ill effect 

Doctors can say yes the operation went well and all fixed but until they play regular football again nobody knows 

i am sure medical staff doctors thought Matt jarvis would recover he did but not to what he was before 

100's of players have recovered 100 % from injuries but 100's have not nobody can be certain about the these players 

i would say the most worrying thing is the club do not have 6 million to spend on him even though we have been in the PL !! 

One of the benefits of the Hayden signing is he had been training fully with Newcastle post injury.

We would therefore have had access to stats and would know if the injury had caused a reduction in pace or anything like that. Past that, the medical team will judge as accurately as possible the chances of future injury but like you say, it's only a prediction and their can't be certainty.

Equally to be fair, you can sign a perfectly fit 20 year old with no injury history and he could break his leg second week of pre season.

I dont think there's anything to worry about here. I guess the depth of our squad at championship level also means it's not the end of the world if him and Sara are a couple weeks late into being ready to start.

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3 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

I think the medically trained staff that undertake thorough medical examinations for potential assets costing millions will have the most informed idea about whether the players are crocked or have a good chance of a full recovery.

You  really think that medically trained staff know more than The Bald One, TIL, Dean Coney's Boots and Highland Canary et al? 🤦‍♂️

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16 minutes ago, Move Klose said:

I watched Ben fosters podcast he did with the arsenal/england medical guy, Lewin I think.

He was saying that it's not just a pass or fail thing. It's calculating the risk of an injury etc.

He was saying arsenal signed a player for 5m and his medical brought up that this guy had a knee injury which was going to get worse in a number of years, they sold him for 25m three years later and he retired through a knee injury 18 months after.

Absolutely, risk management 

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5 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

It would seem not only Hayden won’t be fit for the start of the season but Sara will be staying in Brazil for another 3 weeks for rehabilitation!

Why are we signing players on loan to NOT play? I get they are cheap, maybe there’s a clue before we sign them why they are cheap by the way!

How do they pass medical too?

We all know the club is strapped for cash but to keep signing crocked players is bizarre! 

I had already  mentioned that it was said Sara  may stay in Brazil until the end of the month yesterday lunchtime in the main Sara topic,  no idea why another topic needed to be created. As for your second sentence, Sara in particular will likely not be a loan or be very cheap by NCFC standards.

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1 hour ago, Essjayess said:

I had already  mentioned that it was said Sara  may stay in Brazil until the end of the month yesterday lunchtime in the main Sara topic,  no idea why another topic needed to be created. As for your second sentence, Sara in particular will likely not be a loan or be very cheap by NCFC standards.

Very cheap? The fee being mentioned is between 6 and 12 million depending on who you believe, I’d hardly call that cheap 🤣🤣

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Ok am I right in thinking our medically trained staff haven't even had a look at Sara yet? If so then he needs the mother of all medicals. 

I'm more concerned with how long it's going to take to get him here and get him up to speed.

Hopefully he will rip the Championship up but it feels a bit of a gamble to me.

 

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