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TeemuVanBasten

Ditching Josh Martin feels like a huge mistake?

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This feels a short term move to me, which is where we are at the moment. In the long term it is the wrong Josh to get rid of. In 10 years time, Martin will have had a good five years in the EPL, whilst Sargent will be journeying around the edge of the Mediterranean waiting for a call back to the US.

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So we have one thread where virtually everyone agrees that we don't tend to make too many mistakes when we let youngsters go and then this one where so many seem to know better than our coaches from the handful of parts of matches that he's played. 

Every club makes errors on players - sometimes they just don't fit at the time. There are thousands of stories of young players let go who ultimately come good somewhere else. Chelsea are probably the worst at it, looking at how much money they have spent buying back their former players. They also had Salah and De Bruyne on their books. How bad are their coaches then?

Josh Martin apparently played well for Doncaster who just got relegated from L1. Is he really going to be challenging for a first team squad place, up against players in his position who have just been part of a PL squad?

 

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Dons had a good season with manning kicking them forward ahead of what russel martin had delivered,  adapting the style of play to make them better both at the back and up front,  so it was bad luck for Joh Martin there,  other players took their chance to shine, perhaps when they were not expected to,  probably not dis-similar to passlack and aarons here a few seasons ago.   

Josh then did ok at donnie at then end of the season,  but the feedback suggests he has not progressed as much as we hoped have.  He played at the same time as omotoye if i recall correctly and he has suffered a similar fate.

It happens,  its disappointing,  but, while it may prove to be an error, based on the evidence so far it seems unlikely that this will be a huge mistake

 

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1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

Josh Martin apparently played well for Doncaster who just got relegated from L1. Is he really going to be challenging for a first team squad place, up against players in his position who have just been part of a PL squad?

At 20 years old Emi Buendia was relegated with Getafe to second tier, then loaned out to Cultural Leonesa who were relegated to third tier.  We came along and the rest is history.

So not sure you can always read into lower tier performances.  He needs to become settled somewhere to show what he's capable of, as said above I just don't think he fits the physicality criteria that appears to be prime objective right now.

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Just another lightweight signed to fit in with Farke's other show ponies.

 

Hopefully Dean Smith will put a bit of muscle on the pitch, something we have been lacking for years.

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6 minutes ago, Nora's Ghost said:

Hopefully Dean Smith will put a bit of muscle on the pitch, something we have been lacking for years.

WarpedBothBlackfootedferret-max-1mb.gif

Imagine that walking out, light show flickering around us, Fleetwood Mac pumped up to 11. 

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5 hours ago, shefcanary said:

This feels a short term move to me, which is where we are at the moment. In the long term it is the wrong Josh to get rid of. In 10 years time, Martin will have had a good five years in the EPL, whilst Sargent will be journeying around the edge of the Mediterranean waiting for a call back to the US.

😂

I mean, wow. You should get in touch with our scouting department. I mean clearly they are absolutely missing what you can see.

I've just booked an opticians appointment because I need a strong prescription, and a much, much stiffer drink! 

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31 minutes ago, chicken said:

😂

I mean, wow. You should get in touch with our scouting department. I mean clearly they are absolutely missing what you can see.

I've just booked an opticians appointment because I need a strong prescription, and a much, much stiffer drink! 

It's a game of opinions.  Come back in ten years time and I will lend you my spectacles. 😉 

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6 hours ago, shefcanary said:

This feels a short term move to me, which is where we are at the moment. In the long term it is the wrong Josh to get rid of. In 10 years time, Martin will have had a good five years in the EPL, whilst Sargent will be journeying around the edge of the Mediterranean waiting for a call back to the US.

I do think this is a little harsh based on him not quite being Prem standard.

Very similar age to Josh Martin, but Sargent has already had a Premier League season, played and scored in the Bundesliga, and played and scored for the full national side he represents.

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4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I do think this is a little harsh based on him not quite being Prem standard.

Very similar age to Josh Martin, but Sargent has already had a Premier League season, played and scored in the Bundesliga, and played and scored for the full national side he represents.

Harsh maybe.  But, interesting that the national team have ditched him already.  Let's see, happy to be proven wrong. 

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Martin is a good player and has potential however he has to go.

We need to cut our squad and the only questions Smith needs to ask himself are; 

"Is this player going to be premier league quality next year?" and

"Am I going to play him in the side this year?"

If Smith answers either of his questions with a no then the fairest decision for Martin is to let him go somewhere where he will play and develop.

I hope he has a successful career after playing for us. With his talent I'm sure he will. 

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9 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Prospects under Dean Smith, absolutely, his call.

If he gets sacked by November though...

You are surely not suggesting that we should hold on to players the manager doesn't want, just in case we sack that manager later on and a new manager might possibly rate him? Christ! We're going to have one helluva big squad if that becomes our transfer policy.

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It could be an error but huge feels a big stretch.

Also, what would his career have to look like to constitute a huge mistake? He'd need to show himself to be a Premeier League level player surely?

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9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You are surely not suggesting that we should hold on to players the manager doesn't want, just in case we sack that manager later on and a new manager might possibly rate him? Christ! We're going to have one helluva big squad if that becomes our transfer policy.

No, but we need to recognise that we are putting a load of trust into a manager that got 17 points from 27 games last season, even if he inherited a situation where he was almost certain to fail in the short term. If he's rubbish, and we've lost Martin, Mumba, Tzolis and perhaps even Pukki because of him, that will probably take years to recover from, if we ever recover.

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4 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

No, but we need to recognise that we are putting a load of trust into a manager that got 17 points from 27 games last season, even if he inherited a situation where he was almost certain to fail in the short term. If he's rubbish, and we've lost Martin, Mumba, Tzolis and perhaps even Pukki because of him, that will probably take years to recover from, if we ever recover.

But in order to find out if he's 'rubbish' or not, we've surely got to allow him to assemble a squad that fits with his managerial philosophy? I'd be more inclined to look at his prior experience in this league with Brentford and Villa than judge him on his performances with a totally failing squad that was assembled to play a very nuanced and specific style of football.

If he turns out to be 'rubbish', then yeah of course it'll set the club back a lot. But we need to give him a fair crack of the whip rather than just deciding he's 'rubbish' after three months and getting in another guy, a la Watford. With Farke it took us more than a year to really hit our stride, so Smith certainly deserves at least the first half of the season (unless we're in the bottom half of the table, which I think is extremely unlikely).

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Just now, canarybubbles said:

No, but we need to recognise that we are putting a load of trust into a manager that got 17 points from 27 games last season, even if he inherited a situation where he was almost certain to fail in the short term. If he's rubbish, and we've lost Martin, Mumba, Tzolis and perhaps even Pukki because of him, that will probably take years to recover from, if we ever recover.

We're putting a lot of trust in a manager who has a very good career record (a manager who kept Villa up before they had oodles of cash to spend). Unless one is intending to sack a manager it would be crazy to think you wouldn't trust his judgement, unless you believe it is the board who should be determining team selection. I doubt very much that Smith made this decision without consulting the coaches who have worked with Martin day-to-day. Perhaps, you're right; if Mumba, Martin, Tzolis and perhaps even Pukki were to go it would be hard to see how the club could possibly recover from such a blow (best we all join Mullet down at the mighty Stowmarket FC before that horror occurs).

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1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

No, but we need to recognise that we are putting a load of trust into a manager that got 17 points from 27 games last season, even if he inherited a situation where he was almost certain to fail in the short term. If he's rubbish, and we've lost Martin, Mumba, Tzolis and perhaps even Pukki because of him, that will probably take years to recover from, if we ever recover.

 Bizarrely you seem obsessed with Smiths 27 games last season but conversely pay zero attention to any previous season.

And Pukki isn't going, and even if he did (he wont) it wouldn't necessarily be because of Smith anyway!

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21 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Have to wonder whether if Webber and Dean Smith had walked into Colney in the summer of 2009 they'd have seen the full potential in Wes Hoolahan in the way that Paul Lambert did, or whether they'd have binned him off at the first sight of a few hundred grand, at a time when Wes's agent was trying to convince him to demand a transfer. He was far from the finished article at that point. 

That may be true, but it’s not just Webber and Dean Smith. Farke thought the same as well. I think it is interesting that you clearly know so much more than the managers and coaches. Surely you should be employed in a major role at a club.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, hogesar said:

 Bizarrely you seem obsessed with Smiths 27 games last season but conversely pay zero attention to any previous season.

And Pukki isn't going, and even if he did (he wont) it wouldn't necessarily be because of Smith anyway!

And bizarrely you seem obsessed with his time at Brentford. Which is more relevant - his record with us last season or his record with a different club half a decade ago? 

EDIT: Actually, neither of us is being bizarre: we are just cherry-picking our evidence to suit our argument. You clearly have a high opinion of Smith, so you use his time at Brentford; I don't have a high opinion, so I talk about last season. And we both have counter-arguments. You will argue that last season is not relevant because no one could have done any better with such an inadequate squad. Fair enough. But I will argue that Smith had three years at Brentford and each time they finished just above mid-table, having made the play offs before he arrived and after he left. So no one can argue that 'he didn't have time' or 'he didn't have his own players', the two most common arguments for keeping him after the debacle of last season. Basically, he had three years and he kept them ticking over but he didn't progress them an inch.

Edited by canarybubbles

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Posted (edited)

Steve Foley, a man of countless wise sooths and sayings, once said to me that football is about 80% ability and 20% attitude. But without the 20% attitude, all the ability in the world counts for little. Dean Smith will have seen this times without number over his football career.

That, sadly, explains Josh. Of course, he has the ability.

If Todd is not careful he could go the same way, but to see him back in the middle of it with a big smile on his face makes me feel that he has turned a corner, and gained a little enlightenment in the last year. In Todd's case, Neil Adams has been working hard with him since they came back in and it seems to be working.

Edited by Pugin
correction

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5 minutes ago, Pugin said:

Steve Foley, a man of countless wise sooths and sayings, once said to me that football is about 80% ability and 20% attitude. But without the 20% attitude, all the ability in the world counts for little. Dean Smith will have seen this times without number over his football career.

That, sadly, explains Josh. Of course, he has the ability.

If Todd is not careful he could go the same way, but to see him back in the middle of it with a big smile on his face makes me feel that he has turned a corner, and gained a little enlightenment in the last year. In Todd's case, Neil Adams has been working hard with him since they came back in and it seems to be working.

So Martin, who is about four years younger than Cantwell and, as far as I know, has never caused us any trouble at all, has an attitude problem, whereas Cantwell, who has been a pain in the **** for two years, can now be forgiven because he has a big smile on his face? 

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12 hours ago, horsefly said:

We're putting a lot of trust in a manager who has a very good career record (a manager who kept Villa up before they had oodles of cash to spend). Unless one is intending to sack a manager it would be crazy to think you wouldn't trust his judgement, unless you believe it is the board who should be determining team selection. I doubt very much that Smith made this decision without consulting the coaches who have worked with Martin day-to-day. Perhaps, you're right; if Mumba, Martin, Tzolis and perhaps even Pukki were to go it would be hard to see how the club could possibly recover from such a blow (best we all join Mullet down at the mighty Stowmarket FC before that horror occurs).

Nor true, they spent an absolute fortune in their first season up with Smith in charge, in excess of £120 million. 

Before Villa he failed to make the playoffs with Brentford, something both Warburton before him and Frank after him were able to do.

Genuinely do not understand where this "very good" career record comes from. OK career record is about right.

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2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Before Villa he failed to make the playoffs with Brentford, something both Warburton before him and Frank after him were able to do.

And Farke failed to get us into the play-offs too. I remember plenty of fans calling for his sacking before he was given the chance to turn things round at Carrow Road.

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Josh Martin is a player with some ability and shows promise ...... and he will still be showing promise in ten years time.

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1 hour ago, horsefly said:

And Farke failed to get us into the play-offs too. I remember plenty of fans calling for his sacking before he was given the chance to turn things round at Carrow Road.

Yes, but he took over a team that hadn't just gotten into the playoffs under their predecessor, and then in his three full Championship seasons with Norwich won it twice. In Dean Smith's two full and one almost full season in the Championship with Norwich he managed only 9th.

I'm not really sure what relevance Farke's record has anyway. You said Dean Smith has a very good career record. I think very good is overstating it, particularly considered there any many, many more with much better career records (Farke being one of those many), so if Dean Smith's is "very good", you'll quickly run out of superlatives for others.

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes, but he took over a team that hadn't just gotten into the playoffs under their predecessor, and then in his three full Championship seasons with Norwich won it twice. In Dean Smith's two full and one almost full season in the Championship with Norwich he managed only 9th.

I'm not really sure what relevance Farke's record has anyway. You said Dean Smith has a very good career record. I think very good is overstating it, particularly considered there any many, many more with much better career records (Farke being one of those many), so if Dean Smith's is "very good", you'll quickly run out of superlatives for others.

We ain't going to agree, but irrespective of that it couldn't be clearer that Smith is going nowhere before this season starts. Best, surely, that we all get behind him and the team. If he proves a failure then you can came the "I told you so" bragging rights.

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15 minutes ago, horsefly said:

We ain't going to agree, but irrespective of that it couldn't be clearer that Smith is going nowhere before this season starts. Best, surely, that we all get behind him and the team. If he proves a failure then you can came the "I told you so" bragging rights.

Not really, I'm not coming at you with some wild opinion or crazy prediction, I'm merely pointing out that his record at Championship level isn't "very good". Probably 6 or 7 out 10.

That doesn't mean he won't be a success this time around. Look at Lambert, ignore his three seasons at Norwich and his record is pretty ordinary, it doesn't mean he wasn't outstanding during his time here. Smith could be the right man for the right time at Norwich and perform above his par Championship level; and he'll ****ing need to, as his par Championship position is about 10th place, despite his career being exclusively at teams either heavily tipped for promotion or tipped as being potential playoff shouts.

But the idea that we've got this proven Championship superstar in charge is for the dogs. He failed to take Brentford into the playoffs despite Warburton before him and Frank after him managing it, and he took over a team that finished in the playoffs the previous season, with the biggest wage budget in the league and most talented squad on paper, and got them into 5th, a position lower than the previous year. That same team were also only 3 points behind us when Smith took over and finished 17 points behind.

He's got a very good League One record, joining a relegation-threatened team and slowly turned them into playoff contenders. But he doesn't have a very good Championship record.

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One thing that Smith has had until now is incredible amounts of luck. 1) He ended up at Brentford - a fantastically well run club, where he did nothing to progress them at all but they gave him the bulk of three seasons to try to do so 2) He inherited the best squad in the Championship when he went to Villa, including Grealish 3) He got up via the lottery of the play-offs, including a penalty shoot-out 4) He survived in the PL because of a ridiculous failure of goal line technology 5) He worked for a club which spent over 100m when he was in the Prem (compared to the pittance that Farke had at Norwich) 6) When he got sacked, he had a new job within a few days. If he is indeed one of Napoleon's 'lucky generals', maybe NCFC should hang on to him. 

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