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TeemuVanBasten

Ditching Josh Martin feels like a huge mistake?

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Seems an odd decision to me.  I think Smith is overhauling the way we play, it seem Martin might not fit into themat way of playing.

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I think he's got good feet and good control but then so does Rowe and Springett. We've not really struggled to develop that sort of player since Webber came in, but we have struggled to make them first team players.

Martin was decent in a League One team, nothing more, and even their manager doubts there would be any championship interest for him.

The problem is probably the fact he has zero physicality. When that's the case in championship and Premier league football. You have to be absolutely exceptional in other areas.

You could compare to Todd who in my opinion is a much more skilful, intelligent footballer with a much better range of passing and a better finisher. But as soon as he went off the boil his lack of physicality made him look useless.

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2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think he's got good feet and good control but then so does Rowe and Springett. We've not really struggled to develop that sort of player since Webber came in, but we have struggled to make them first team players.

Martin was decent in a League One team, nothing more, and even their manager doubts there would be any championship interest for him.

The problem is probably the fact he has zero physicality. When that's the case in championship and Premier league football. You have to be absolutely exceptional in other areas.

You could compare to Todd who in my opinion is a much more skilful, intelligent footballer with a much better range of passing and a better finisher. But as soon as he went off the boil his lack of physicality made him look useless.

The problem with your argument is that we excelled in the Championship on the last two occasions we played there, with a team that was relatively low on physicality but high on good feet and good control.

Your opinion seems to be that we should turn ourselves into a carbon copy of at least half the teams in the Championship, big on physicality, not so big on technical ball skills. IMO, that's a recipe for long-term Championship mediocrity.

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19 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

The problem with your argument is that we excelled in the Championship on the last two occasions we played there, with a team that was relatively low on physicality but high on good feet and good control.

Your opinion seems to be that we should turn ourselves into a carbon copy of at least half the teams in the Championship, big on physicality, not so big on technical ball skills. IMO, that's a recipe for long-term Championship mediocrity.

The difference was, we had a Buendia who was individually miles ahead of the rest of the Champs, in Pukki we had a striker who was more clinical than most in the Champs, and in Skipp buttressing the midfield, we had someone who was excellent there too. Buendia's workrate was tigerish, and it was useful for a player like Cantwell, a much more free-spirited sort, to drift around in the spaces caused by Buendia's own workrate. Without that, Cantwell can't do the drifting into space to the same effect - and Martin's not in Cantwell's league yet, if at all. As Doncaster's manager said, he doubted there would be Championship interest in him.

This is what happens when a team evolves. We don't have a Buendia this time, and it would need a stroke of scouting genius to find one. It means we need minor upgrades across several areas to gradually replace what he brought. Hayden should be the Skipp replacement. Buendia won't be replaced by one man.

But my instinct is that Dowell's getting readied for the number 10 slot. He should be fine if there's pace and power around him up there. Rashica's probably awkward enough, especially when dribbling. Sargent's powerful enough and certainly has plenty of nuisance value. Idah should be physically very hard work for any Champs defender. Chuck Rowe/Springett off the bench and I think I can see what's going to happen.

Edited by TheGunnShow
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This is the reality of this season though isn’t it. If we start badly Smith, Webber and Delia will be under massive pressure. Carrow road will be toxic and it will be less fun than last year which is saying something.

Smith has decided that he needs tried and trusted Championship quality to get the sort of start he needs to still be in a job at Christmas. He doesn’t want to trust this to a 20 yr old who struggled to make the bench last year at MK Dons.

Because of the above situation mistakes will be made Martin and Adeshead may be a the first of many.

Getting Alex Neil relegation season vibes about this year.

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Do you think Rashica will still be with us by the end of the window?  It is hard to see him not being impressive if stays, I assumed there would be enough teams willing to pay us what we paid for him to allow him to leave.  

 

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The coaching staff who have worked with him day in day out, and have followed his performances at the loan clubs, have clearly decided they don't think he is a better prospect than the likes of Springett and Rowe. There is little point employing coaching staff if you are not going to trust their judgement. I liked Martin (remember that free kick he scored in pre-season a couple of years back), but you can't hang on to every young prospect in the hope that they might just become good enough at some unknown point in the future.

It is instructive that no other Championship club appears to be interested in signing him. Imagine the response on here if we were planning to bring in a player that no other PL or Championship club showed any interest in buying. Equally, it is unfair on the player himself at this stage in his career to hold on to him without any real prospect of him playing first-team football. I would move him on for free with a very big (50%?) sell-on clause, and hope for all concerned that he manages to take his game to a higher level.

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46 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

The problem with your argument is that we excelled in the Championship on the last two occasions we played there, with a team that was relatively low on physicality but high on good feet and good control.

Your opinion seems to be that we should turn ourselves into a carbon copy of at least half the teams in the Championship, big on physicality, not so big on technical ball skills. IMO, that's a recipe for long-term Championship mediocrity.

But that setup had proven twice to be absolutely destroyed at Premier League level. Rowe doesn't look to have any less quality on the ball than Martin, but is built a bit stockier and looks to have a bit more pace.

Nothing to do with a carbon copy of half the championship, more a carbon copy of half the Premier League.

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It's all about pecking order sadly and Martin is now competing with Springett, Rowe, Tzolis, Placheta, Dowell, Rashica and Cantwell for a space in the team. I imagine at least 2/3 of those will go on loan if not sold

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I always liked Martin. He has a fluid quality, an eye for goal and a passa-gol in him. 

I expected him to do better. There feels something that we don‘t know about him. I agree with TvB that he has more in his armoury than 'just another good technical Norwich player‘. I thought he had something too. 

Parma  

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We have too many average players and Martin is one of them.

Time to get rid so that there is space for others to come through.

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Martin's stats look pretty good compared to Scott Twine who many were keen on us buying.

I suspect that the club feel that they are very well-stocked in the area and that you can't develop everyone. The more chances you give martin, the fewer you will be giving to another young prospect they seem to rate more highly.

 

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14 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But that setup had proven twice to be absolutely destroyed at Premier League level. Rowe doesn't look to have any less quality on the ball than Martin, but is built a bit stockier and looks to have a bit more pace.

Nothing to do with a carbon copy of half the championship, more a carbon copy of half the Premier League.

Exactly.

Smith needs to get us back up but he also needs to have half an eye on what he'd need in the top flight. I look at Brentford as the example- good football team but also physical enough to handle themselves in the top flight and make life tough for the teams with bigger budgets.

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2 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

IMO, Martin showed more in those Championship games (and brief moments in the PL) than either Rowe or Springett have done at about the same age.

If he's been out on loan, Dean Smith won't have had a chance to see him and evaluate him. So why not at least look? Is this yet another example of everything being decided on stats rather than on the eye test? 

This is not meant to be an attack on Rowe or Springett btw; more a comment that who we keep and who we don't seems more and more to have become a random process subject either to the opinion of a man who has yet to show that he deserves such trust in his judgement or to a spreadsheet.

Sorry but thats not quite right. Smith will have had a chance to look at Martin by now. If you think he's moved on without being looked at... well, that's unbelievable Jeff! 

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Hogesar is right. It's lack of physicality that's the problem. It's not even about sheer size & strength, it's about that ability to not get knocked off the ball - & not lose it as soon as you've won it off the opposition - that sets PL players above the rest. 

Maddison is a real anomaly in this day & age (no pace, tackling or heading ability) but his sheer footballing ability sets him apart - & the one thing he has in addition is that ability to hang on to the ball under extreme pressure.

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I remember that he started off well when he got a few chances to play in the team, but after a few games he became less effective and looked like he couldn't get into games enough to affect them.  It was like the bubble burst and it was plain he had lost his way.  Obviously with talent, but talent alone is not enough.  Should find a decent club though L1 or L2 and develop himself there.

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7 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

Hogesar is right. It's lack of physicality that's the problem. It's not even about sheer size & strength, it's about that ability to not get knocked off the ball - & not lose it as soon as you've won it off the opposition - that sets PL players above the rest. 

Maddison is a real anomaly in this day & age (no pace, tackling or heading ability) but his sheer footballing ability sets him apart - & the one thing he has in addition is that ability to hang on to the ball under extreme pressure.

I agree with this, as already mentioned, Buendia isnt the biggest of players but he is physically strong and has a determination in his playing style.

In relation to Maddison - he lacks physical presence but has the ability of being an annoying little sh** which winds players up and results in their frustrations and lots of niggly fouls on him that he exaggerates and wins free kicks for - NB I think this is a positive of his game and something that the likes of Cantwell, Rashica, Dowell, Rowe etc should do more of!

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I think he's been unlucky with the manager merry-go-round really. 

Unfortunately our excess in the squad is in the wide positions and at this point you can't say he'd be first choice- probably third. And maybe the man himself has had a year of playing and now doesn't want to be a reserve player hoping for a few minutes here or there.

It's a shame to see a good young player move on without fulfilling the potential we see in them, but it happens more often than not. 

 

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48 minutes ago, horsefly said:

It is instructive that no other Championship club appears to be interested in signing him. 

I'd love to hear your breakdown of how you managed to deduce this from available information.... go on?

 

"I know he’s available. Norwich want a fee," said McSheffrey, quoted by the Doncaster Free Press, who previously made it clear he would love to entice Martin back to Yorkshire for the new season.

"There are clubs interested in him; I’ve had a couple of calls from managers asking what his character’s like, his qualities and whether he’d be good value to their squad.

"I have to be honest with them and say he was good for us at the level.

"Whether or not he’ll get Championship (football) I’m not sure, but ultimately there is going to be a fee involved. 

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29 minutes ago, Badger said:

Martin's stats look pretty good compared to Scott Twine who many were keen on us buying.

He was playing on loan at Chippenham Town when he was Josh Martin's age.

(Where Darren Eadie was born and raised, as it happens!)

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1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'd love to hear your breakdown of how you managed to deduce this from available information.... go on?

 

"I know he’s available. Norwich want a fee," said McSheffrey, quoted by the Doncaster Free Press, who previously made it clear he would love to entice Martin back to Yorkshire for the new season.

"There are clubs interested in him; I’ve had a couple of calls from managers asking what his character’s like, his qualities and whether he’d be good value to their squad.

"I have to be honest with them and say he was good for us at the level.

"Whether or not he’ll get Championship (football) I’m not sure, but ultimately there is going to be a fee involved. 

I said "appears", pay attention. Irrespective of where he ends up, I think I'll trust the assessment of the manager and coaches' regarding Martin's prospects of first team football at NCFC over your "insights" (which are as well informed as my own).

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Think it's fair to say he has talent but sadly I just see him as another player we loan out then loan out then loan out until he leaves for a free. Not sure he will have the abilitiy to become like Ben Godfrey, but I doubt he would become more of a Jamal Lewis. Not a great player, but not as bad as some might claim

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10 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Have to wonder whether if Webber and Dean Smith had walked into Colney in the summer of 2009 they'd have seen the full potential in Wes Hoolahan in the way that Paul Lambert did, or whether they'd have binned him off at the first sight of a few hundred grand, at a time when Wes's agent was trying to convince him to demand a transfer. He was far from the finished article at that point. 

Wes Hoolahan had countless great performances at Blackpool to back up his credentials, including him running the show against us one match I recall. He wasn't the finished article but he was a proven performer.

It does seem one we might regret though. He was pretty poor at MK Dons but didn't he finish the season really well at Doncaster? Mightve imbued confidence and momentum. Won't have much of that now.

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3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I think I'll trust the assessment of the manager and coaches' regarding Martin's prospects of first team football at NCFC

Prospects under Dean Smith, absolutely, his call.

If he gets sacked by November though...

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It's a fair question to ask. One assumes he's been watched and the overall opinion us that he won't make the grade but further development could happen. Maybe Springett, Rowe and perhaps a new signing are deemed to be better? 

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Not sure I agree its a mistake. He's got talent but he's physically a bit weak and based on the accounts of a couple of people I know who've bumped into him has a bit of an attitude. 

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I think Smith is on a physical trip this season.  In an attacking sense, If you're strong/powerful you're in, if you're blisteringly quick you're in.

If you fall in the middle, I think only a few will make that grade - i.e. Dowell?

Just not sure where Josh falls really, I think he's got some great potential - but then what has he done in the lower leagues?  I haven't a clue as don't watch them - but presume if he'd been pulling up trees it would be well known.

We have prem league ambitions, and clearly Smith feels that we need a better average of more physically capable players to compete at that level - and he's probably right.

 

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PS I think/hope we are looking for more pace in our side with a view to gettuing back to the prem at some point. Martin is anoter of these "wingers" who isn't really fast and doesn't beat his man. He's another Cantwell or Dowell type wide player. I think Smith will be looking to develop/recruit a couple of genuine wingers. That may be another reason for the decision.

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39 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Not sure I agree its a mistake. He's got talent but he's physically a bit weak and based on the accounts of a couple of people I know who've bumped into him has a bit of an attitude. 

Someone else said this to me but as an individual thought it was something not worth mentioning but if you've heard from a couple too, then potentially there is a slight issue, who knows.

34 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I think Smith is on a physical trip this season.  In an attacking sense, If you're strong/powerful you're in, if you're blisteringly quick you're in.

If you fall in the middle, I think only a few will make that grade - i.e. Dowell?

Just not sure where Josh falls really, I think he's got some great potential - but then what has he done in the lower leagues?  I haven't a clue as don't watch them - but presume if he'd been pulling up trees it would be well known.

We have prem league ambitions, and clearly Smith feels that we need a better average of more physically capable players to compete at that level - and he's probably right.

 

4 goals and 3 assists in 1643 League One Minutes, or approximately a goal / assist every 2.5 games or something. Nothing extraordinary.

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