Ditching Josh Martin feels like a huge mistake?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

He's clearly a quality player, and he's only 20.

I just don't get it, this kid is a real talent? Lovely quick feet and close control, can spot a pass, thread a through ball, tends to only need one touch, doesn't hide from the ball and when he's been involved in our first team he seemed to develop a decent understanding with Teemu Pukki. 

Like, he's actually got a footballing brain and some b*llocks, both of which Placheta is missing.

Why are we touting him out on a permanent? Just feels so premature? 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

The coaches obviously don't think he is championship and above standard... neither did Farke. 

Showed some nice touches but imo not a great loss.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, Kenny Foggo said:

The coaches obviously don't think he is championship and above standard... neither did Farke. 

Showed some nice touches but imo not a great loss.

Have to wonder whether if Webber and Dean Smith had walked into Colney in the summer of 2009 they'd have seen the full potential in Wes Hoolahan in the way that Paul Lambert did, or whether they'd have binned him off at the first sight of a few hundred grand, at a time when Wes's agent was trying to convince him to demand a transfer. He was far from the finished article at that point. 

[NWC 239]

Thought Farke played him in the prem iirc?

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

1 minute ago, NWC said:

Thought Farke played him in the prem iirc?

he played 9 or 10 games in the champs but i'm pretty sure that was it.

looked okay but the fact he then went to league 1 and not a championship side probably says something.

Everything the club does is a mistake right now though.

Edited July 5, 2022 by KeiranShikari

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

6 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Have to wonder whether if Webber and Dean Smith had walked into Colney in the summer of 2009 they'd have seen the full potential in Wes Hoolahan in the way that Paul Lambert did, or whether they'd have binned him off at the first sight of a few hundred grand, at a time when Wes's agent was trying to convince him to demand a transfer. He was far from the finished article at that point. 

He is no Wes.. not in a million years

[Richard Richard 186]

Agree, was looking forward to seeing him forcing his way back into contention. Seems very early to give up on him given the flashes of quality he showed.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

But it seems Deano has been told to get rid of a good few players and I assume the fringe ones are the ones in the firing line.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

I'd have kept him too. But for all the good we saw him do under Farke, there's no doubting his development has stalled. Poor for MK Dons and while he did well at Doncaster, I don't think anyone would claim he's anywhere near our first team. In his last year under contract, I'd kind of understand if we moved him on. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, Kenny Foggo said:

He is no Wes.. not in a million years

How can you possibly know this, when at Josh Martin's age Hoolahan was 1 year into his Shelbourne FC career with zero caps at any youth level for Ireland?

Becoming as good as Wes eventually became is a tall order for any player, but that is who Josh Martin reminded me of with his close control, nice little weighted through balls and I do wonder if sitting in 'the pocket' is where he could have excelled. 

Wes Hoolahan was 26 when he joined us, with only a couple of half decent seasons for Blackpool under his belt. Nobody knew that he was the Irish Messi at that point. 

Josh Martin is only 20, I could really seeing this being another Toffolo situation, if not worse. We've been guilty of holding on to some prospects far too long, Carlton Morris for example, but this one feels premature to me, makes me wonder if we're super skint, a year on the deal and then half a season in Holland to see if he could do a Cantwell felt in order for a player with this technical ability?

[HazzaJet 252]

I think the reason he’s going is because we currently have so many wingers in the squad, and so we don’t need him. If it wasn’t for the likes of Rowe and Springett, who I think Smith is more interested in I reckon he would probably be kept

[Mullet 293]

27 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

He's clearly a quality player, and he's only 20.

I just don't get it, this kid is a real talent? Lovely quick feet and close control, can spot a pass, thread a through ball, tends to only need one touch, doesn't hide from the ball and when he's been involved in our first team he seemed to develop a decent understanding with Teemu Pukki. 

Like, he's actually got a footballing brain and some b*llocks, both of which Placheta is missing.

Why are we touting him out on a permanent? Just feels so premature? 

 

I'm with you mate, I always felt confident with him on the pitch, I've been banging this drum on another thread and getting nowhere.

The club would rather waste millions on rubbish

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

11 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I'd have kept him too. But for all the good we saw him do under Farke, there's no doubting his development has stalled. Poor for MK Dons and while he did well at Doncaster, I don't think anyone would claim he's anywhere near our first team. In his last year under contract, I'd kind of understand if we moved him on. 

Keep seeing this "coudn't get in the MK Dons team" argument, but their Russell Martin replacement was straight out of the left field, a real odd appointment.

Liam Manning (a 36 year old from Norwich, by the way) only had 1 year of managerial experience, in the Belgian second tier. His playing career was spent mostly in Suffolk for illustrious clubs like Woodbridge Town and Ipswich Wanderers, having signed a pro contract with Ipswich Town but never kicking a ball.

I can't work out if he's a canary or a scummer, and I doubt MK Dons fans at this point can say with certainty that he won't be managing his former club Wroxham within a few years. I'm not sure I trust him enough, based on his CV, to value his judgement of a player who has, frankly, played 44 more professional games than him. Especially when we don't know if he's a Tractor boy or a Canary.

Edited July 5, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Petriix 2,834]

I totally agree. This is exactly the sort of player we should be developing. He's got lots of potential and plenty of the raw ingredients to be a good player. Keeping PLM and offloading Martin is exactly why I feel the squad is going backwards. Mid-table mediocrity in the Championship beckons and we're chopping off the green shoots of hope for the future.

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

3 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I totally agree. This is exactly the sort of player we should be developing. He's got lots of potential and plenty of the raw ingredients to be a good player. Keeping PLM and offloading Martin is exactly why I feel the squad is going backwards. Mid-table mediocrity in the Championship beckons and we're chopping off the green shoots of hope for the future.

Not sure if this is serious or not. A) they're not even close to playing the same position on the pitch B) We've brought 2 younger wingers into the squad over the last couple of months.

 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

33 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Keep seeing this "coudn't get in the MK Dons team" argument, but their Russell Martin replacement was straight out of the left field, a real odd appointment.

Liam Manning (a 36 year old from Norwich, by the way) only had 1 year of managerial experience, in the Belgian second tier. His playing career was spent mostly in Suffolk for illustrious clubs like Woodbridge Town and Ipswich Wanderers, having signed a pro contract with Ipswich Town but never kicking a ball.

I can't work out if he's a canary or a scummer, and I doubt MK Dons fans at this point can say with certainty that he won't be managing his former club Wroxham within a few years. I'm not sure I trust him enough, based on his CV, to value his judgement of a player who has, frankly, played 44 more professional games than him. Especially when we don't know if he's a Tractor boy or a Canary.

A bit bizarre to suggest that Liam Manning's career or affiliations to either Norwich or Ipswich made any difference to whether he played JM or not. Just didn't like him. A bit like what happened with Bali Mumba when Peterborough changed bosses. 

[chicken 2,604]

39 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

How can you possibly know this, when at Josh Martin's age Hoolahan was 1 year into his Shelbourne FC career with zero caps at any youth level for Ireland?

Becoming as good as Wes eventually became is a tall order for any player, but that is who Josh Martin reminded me of with his close control, nice little weighted through balls and I do wonder if sitting in 'the pocket' is where he could have excelled. 

Wes Hoolahan was 26 when he joined us, with only a couple of half decent seasons for Blackpool under his belt. Nobody knew that he was the Irish Messi at that point. 

Josh Martin is only 20, I could really seeing this being another Toffolo situation, if not worse. We've been guilty of holding on to some prospects far too long, Carlton Morris for example, but this one feels premature to me, makes me wonder if we're super skint, a year on the deal and then half a season in Holland to see if he could do a Cantwell felt in order for a player with this technical ability?

In fairness TVB, you didn't compare him to a 20yr old Wes Hoolahan, you compared this situation with the 2009 Wes Hoolahan.

I think it's fair to say he isn't there yet.

And yes, whilst he is young and potentially a talent, potential is exactly that until it is realised. Plenty of young players full of potential have failed to realise it. Some young players are given that label because of the level they have already reached at a young age. There are many for whom that represents their peak.

It is a shame re Josh Martin, who turns 21 at the start of September, as he had shown some real promise. I don't think there is any doubt about that. 14 appearances for Norwich, 5 in the Premier League and 9 in the Championship. A further two in cup competitions, one each in the FA and League Cup. One goal. 

All five of his Premier League appearances were as substitutes, of the 9 in the Championship, 6 were starts, 3 we substitute appearances and a further 6 where he was subbed off.

The real difficulty for Josh is that he has to stand out and be head and shoulders better, not only than the players ahead of him, but the likes of Rowe and Springett who are a good couple of years or more behind him.

In front of him right now we have; Rashica(26), Cantwell(24), Dowell(24), Hernandez(29), with the addition of Placheta(24), Sargent(22) who can play there, Tzolis(20) and Mumba(20) who can also play there but maybe less likely to or possibly also on the move. Then add Springett and Rowe.

It's a very well stocked area of the squad. He could arguably push past Placheta as he is more creative, possibly Tzolis who may well be on the way out, and Mumba who is more likely to be treated as a full back. He's then fighting for the same game time that Rowe and Springett may be pushing for. Though we are yet to find out if they will be loaned out to find more game time rather than play the waiting game on the bench.

It is also an area they may yet try to strengthen in - which I can see especially if we were to lose Rashica, Placheta, Cantwell and Tzolis. That would leave options of Dowell, Hernandez, Sargent and Springett and Rowe. I suspect that they would want more quality there, especially as Dowell isn't a typical wide player and more of an AM.

[chicken 2,604]

36 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said:

Not sure if this is serious or not. A) they're not even close to playing the same position on the pitch B) We've brought 2 younger wingers into the squad over the last couple of months.

Not to mention PLM was starting to show some quality towards the end of the season at least, certainly more consistency than the glimpses he showed in games earlier in the season. 

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

He was sent out on loan to L1, his manager there isn’t sure if he’s Champs level, but some of our supporters appear to know better and think he’s the next Wes?

 I’m sure we’d like to keep him and who knows he may be a future star, but the squad right now needs trimming. Fringe players are likely to be shelved, and he’s one of them.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

27 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

He was sent out on loan to L1, his manager there isn’t sure if he’s Champs level, but some of our supporters appear to know better and think he’s the next Wes?

 I’m sure we’d like to keep him and who knows he may be a future star, but the squad right now needs trimming. Fringe players are likely to be shelved, and he’s one of them.

I'm not sure if you only see things in monochrome or whether you are being entirely disingenuous, but there is a lot of points in between not being considered ready for Championship football and being touted around to clubs on a permanent.

Did you miss this suggestion?

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

 a year on the deal and then half a season in Holland to see if he could do a Cantwell felt in order for a player with this technical ability?

Jacob Murphy at this age by the way was on his 3rd loan to League One, and it wasn't until he was 21 in his fourth that he impressed on a further loan to League One sufficiently to be given a proper chance here, which he took, now he's a Premier League player.

I mean, at 20 Hoolahan was playing in the League of Ireland, Grant Holt was at Barrow, and Teemu Pukki was playing in the third tier of Spanish football for a reserve team, and Cantwell had just got back from a loan in the second tier of Dutch football. Dozens of other examples available upon request, if you fancy taking yourself out of that little box. 

20 is very young, and he's just impressed in League One. He's clearly got sufficient potential, would have to be blind or a wireless-only follower not to have seen it on the pitch. Its a year short of the Murphy twins getting regular football for our first team, both moved for eight figures. 

Its not the slightest bit difficult to envisage Martin going up a level in quality with a sustained period of first team football, we've literally observed it happen with the Murphy's and Cantwell. This decision is premature, and annoying that its potentially necessary because we're stuck paying Placheta, Sinani and Hernandez, a trio of try hards without a footballing brain cell between them.

Edited July 5, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

Just to be clear, he ‘impressed’ in a side that got relegated to L2.   We want players competing at the top end of the Championship, or better, and there’s a huge difference.  I’m sure the guys at the club will consider the varying options that have - and getting a fee for him is obviously one of those.  

Edited July 5, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, KeiranShikari said:

he played 9 or 10 games in the champs but i'm pretty sure that was it.

looked okay but the fact he then went to league 1 and not a championship side probably says something.

Everything the club does is a mistake right now though.

You are wrong, he has 5 Premier League appearances under his belt.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

11 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Just to be clear, he ‘impressed’ in a side that got relegated to L2.   We want players competing at the top end of the Championship, or better, and there’s a huge difference.  I’m sure the guys at the club will consider the varying options that have - and getting a fee for him is obviously one of those.  

He impressed for us at the top of the Championship.

I just hope that one of Rowe or Springett makes the grade. Like Rowes enthusiasm, but then I liked Jamar Lozas enthusiasm.

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You are wrong, he has 5 Premier League appearances under his belt.

Oh, 32 mins across 5 games. Must have blinked.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

He did OK at Doncaster, but we've got a heck of a lot of wingers - not to mention, he didn't remotely seem to do as well as Godfrey did at Shrewsbury. Cantwell if his head is screwed on (if he's not moving to number 10), Rashica, Rowe, Springett, Sargent (essentially taking a winger slot), Dowell (if he's not moving to number 10), Hernandez, Placheta (those two seem to be on the way too).

This looks more of an endorsement of Rowe and Springett to me. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[TheBaldOne66 681]

Maybe he has an attitude problem? He has admitted he didn’t take training serious sometimes and he was also said to have an attitude problem at Arsenal before we signed him.

 

 

[hertfordyellow 460]

7 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

But it seems Deano has been told to get rid of a good few players and I assume the fringe ones are the ones in the firing line.

Deano doesn’t make that decision. He’s not a manager he is a coach.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

IMO, Martin showed more in those Championship games (and brief moments in the PL) than either Rowe or Springett have done at about the same age.

If he's been out on loan, Dean Smith won't have had a chance to see him and evaluate him. So why not at least look? Is this yet another example of everything being decided on stats rather than on the eye test? 

This is not meant to be an attack on Rowe or Springett btw; more a comment that who we keep and who we don't seems more and more to have become a random process subject either to the opinion of a man who has yet to show that he deserves such trust in his judgement or to a spreadsheet.

Edited July 6, 2022 by canarybubbles

[hertfordyellow 460]

He may have indicated he won’t be signing another contract, with a year left as it stands. That coupled with the emergence of Rowe and Springett makes the decision straight forward.

it is a shame though, the talent is obvious.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

Perhaps a lot of this is explained by our current status as a yo-yo club. We develop promising young players but when we hit the PL, we can't afford to give them a run of games. So we loan them out, and often loans don't work (e.g. Gilmour - surely he can't be as bad as he looked for us last season), the young player starts to lose confidence, we have another, different promising young player by then and prefer him, get rid of last year's wonderboy, rinse and repeat.