Tzolis to Bruges (loan to buy)

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

It would be great if this move would hurry up and happen if it’s going to…if only so that we can move in from these threads! 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Was simply making the point that it's an impossibility if they choose to argue with me, for the reasons stated.

Furthermore, I said "ten times their intellect", not "cleverer", and also never claimed or carried the opinion that Dean Smith is a "xenophobe".

I know, but to prefer British players over non British players based on nothing other than their nationality is xenophobic. It’s exclusion/preference of a person based on their nationality. That’s xenophobia I’m afraid. 

Someone of ten times higher intellect would probably be able to see that saying 10 times cleverer is an acceptable paraphrase of similar enough meaning not to be misinterpreted.

I see a fault in your claim 🤔

[PurpleCanary 5,555]

4 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Oh ok, so if I love my sister, I can't love my brother - is that your logic here?  

I'm not inferring anything by saying that Smith loves his British players other than he loves his British players.

Tzolis was forced into the U23's because he fell in the pecking order, and the club wanted him to receive game time.  How the hell can you inflate that to Smith being a xenophobe?!  lol

No idea what Smith’s preferences are regarding the nationality  of players, but at the risk of repeating something pointed out before, Brexit has significantly limited the overseas players we can now sign, so it would be no surprise if the ratio of British to foreign player signings is necessarily tilting towards the home-grown.

 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

15 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

God, that’s next level Maths. You must be evil genius level intellect. All hail corky 😂😂

Ten Times yours?😇

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

4 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Oh ok, so if I love my sister, I can't love my brother - is that your logic here?  

I'm not inferring anything by saying that Smith loves his British players other than he loves his British players.

Tzolis was forced into the U23's because he fell in the pecking order, and the club wanted him to receive game time.  How the hell can you inflate that to Smith being a xenophobe?!  lol

See my latest response. I explain it quite well. Even if I do say so myself.

So did he ‘fall’ down the pecking order OR did Springett and Rowe jump the queue? The first infers Tzolis went down of his own accord the second that he was pushed by virtue of the other two getting preferential treatment by Smith. Which you claim to be because he prefers the Brits. Once again, this is disadvantaging someone based on their nationality in favour of others of your preferred nationality, which IS XENOPHOBIC. I’m just quoting you here. I believe Springett and Rowe got put in the team ahead because they were better at football by comparison. I guess we will never know unless Smith comes out and tells us. 

[Google Bot 3,259]

Just now, SwearyCanary said:

I know, but to prefer British players over non British players based on nothing other than their nationality is xenophobic.

No it's not, xenophobia is a dislike of foreigners.  Loving someone from your homeland does not infer that you're xenophobic - How shallow is your mind to think in such binary patterns as that?

I think this is more about massaging your ego than any meaningful discussion.  I've already told you in plain English what I said, that it infers nothing, that I don't think he's a xenophobe - but do you listen? No.

If I thought he was I'd have no qualms in saying it how it is.

[Google Bot 3,259]

7 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Brexit has significantly limited the overseas players we can now sign, so it would be no surprise if the ratio of British to foreign player signings is necessarily tilting towards the home-grown.

Yeah, as someone else pointed out earlier this will effect signings for sure.  I'm not sure how Smith arrived at the logic that Brexit would help teams lower down narrow the gap though. 

From our perspective being able to take "cheaper" foreign players has served us well.  Although, that said there is a very strong argument that if we brought fewer more established British based players the season would've gone a little better(?).

Who knows.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

Just now, Google Bot said:

No it's not, xenophobia is a dislike of foreigners.  Loving someone from your homeland does not infer that you're xenophobic - How shallow is your mind to think in such binary patterns as that?

I think this is more about massaging your ego than any meaningful discussion.  I've already told you in plain English what I said, that it infers nothing, that I don't think he's a xenophobe - but do you listen? No.

If I thought he was I'd have no qualms in saying it how it is.

That’s noble of you 😂. It’s indirect discrimination through promotion of a preferred nationality. But don’t worry about it, my ego is totally irrelevant in this debate but because we’ve reached a point of disagreement we can’t agree on you’ve gone down the insult route. 
Classy move. I don’t think you think he is a Xenophobe, I’m just saying that your posts are very easily interpreted that way, as many others have suggested too. Just me and my ego though apparently. 

[Google Bot 3,259]

5 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I believe Springett and Rowe got put in the team ahead because they were better at football by comparison

Sure, with their international, Europa and Champions League experience, 10m price tags... Teams across Europe wanting them - they're better at football, clearly. 

Either one of them would've ran the show against Bournemouth too, right?  And scored home & away vs PSV, of course.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

14 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Sure, with their international, Europa and Champions League experience, 10m price tags... Teams across Europe wanting them - they're better at football, clearly. 

Either one of them would've ran the show against Bournemouth too, right?  And scored home & away vs PSV, of course.

I watched the Bournemouth game, Tzolis played well against weakened championship side for sure. The same game Sargeant tore it up too and was a very good team performance. No reason to assume that replace Tzolis with either and they wouldn’t have done as well. I did watch him play against Liverpool too (with a good chunk of their less used squad in the side), he was ineffective, so against EPL standard opposition I’d absolutely say that Springett and Rowe acquitted themselves better yes. Love your argument about price tag, Lukaku probably agrees with you on that one. International experience, great, let’s compare the pool of the Greek national side with England shall we? Ok, maybe not that argument either. So do tell me how well did PAOK do in Europe? so what’s left? He scored vs PSV. Wow - I’m convinced. Having said that have Rowe or Springett played against PSV? 

Some truly rubbish justification going on there, but let’s just look at the real reason I think they played better football this season. 
1) they got picked ahead of him and managers don’t tend to leave their best player in the u23s

2) they performed better when they did play and did so without the fanfare or the reputation, when surely a player of champions league quality would stand out above them on a bad day. 

Are they better than him over their career? No idea can’t possibly say and every chance he comes good and out does both. But for this season and next do we say he is the better player or just the most expensive of the three? I’m comfortable having them and not him next year if need be. But hey, if he comes good and lives up to your assessment then I’ll cheer the guy on as much as you 

 

[Google Bot 3,259]

2 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Classy move. I don’t think you think he is a Xenophobe

I know you don't.  Told you half hour ago that this was more about your ego than any meaningful discussion. 

15 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

you’ve gone down the insult route

Nope, another false claim.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

5 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I know you don't.  Told you half hour ago that this was more about your ego than any meaningful discussion. 

Nope, another false claim.

‘How shallow is your mind’ is one of the more obscure compliments I’ve had to be fair. 😂

Anyway, might just leave this one with you for now. I’m getting all excited for whatever signings we might be making next. I just hope Smith sticks to his guns and puts Hugill up top over Teemu this season, those Finns really don’t have the bants like Jordan does and he could do with a dose of youth development squad in his locker. 

Said no one ever. 

[Google Bot 3,259]

6 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

But for this season and next do we say he is the better player or just the most expensive of the three?

Clearly the better player, you only have to see his ability on the ball and awareness plus he has much experience at a young age.

What goes against him is may be his ability to settle into the squad made worse that we haven't been giving him trust in the first team.  We had 4 matches left after relegation confirmed at Villa.  How anyone can defend not playing the lad for a minute is beyond me.  No matter what the situation, if he's on that bench he wants to play.

Farke himself said "Christos is probably one of the most exciting offensive players across European Football". More rubbish justification I guess?

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

9 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Clearly the better player, you only have to see his ability on the ball and awareness plus he has much experience at a young age.

What goes against him is may be his ability to settle into the squad made worse that we haven't been giving him trust in the first team.  We had 4 matches left after relegation confirmed at Villa.  How anyone can defend not playing the lad for a minute is beyond me.  No matter what the situation, if he's on that bench he wants to play.

Farke himself said "Christos is probably one of the most exciting offensive players across European Football". More rubbish justification I guess?

No, this one has definitely got some common ground. I agree that post relegation we should’ve been blooding players much more and going a bit more freely with the players we had at our disposal, Tzolis being one. Farke’s quote is like a lot of new players that come with a bit of a rep. He was not going to say ‘Christos looked good in a substandard European league so might make the grade in the prem but we can’t bank in this until we’ve seen him play’ doesn’t have the same sound bite appeal for the press. I’d definitely say that we also played our loanees well beyond when we should, but then if as we are led to believe the club were pretty keen on going for the money being 18-19th would bring and Smith is told his budget next year is affected then he will still be incentivised to play the squad he feels is most likely to get a result. He ultimately failed but we can’t say with any confidence that Tzolis would’ve been that magic fix that was being overlooked. 
 

And I would definitely disagree that he is clearly the better player. It wasn’t clear, to anyone, otherwise the threads during the season wouldve been ‘why is he not playing Tzolis he is clearly the best option’. I don’t remember seeing one of these. There was a lot saying ‘Tzolis what a waste of money’ and a big movement to get ‘Billy out’ or ‘Sorensen in’. There were also a few positive ones that praised Rowe and Springett when they appeared. I’d be interested to see what the overall view of the pinkun poster during the season was over Tzolis aside from ‘where is he?’ 

Edited June 27, 2022 by SwearyCanary

[Google Bot 3,259]

4 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

we can’t say with any confidence that Tzolis would’ve been that magic fix that was being overlooked.

I have absolute confidence in his ability, as will be demonstrated wherever he plays in future.  I just pray it's with us.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

I don’t have the same confidence he can do it for us sadly, but I’ll pledge that if he stays with us and tears it up this year I’ll concede defeat. He is young and unlike Cantwell this is still very young career wise so new coaching, new club, new standard of opposition and new system could see him come good yet. But if he was the answer for this year and next for us we wouldn’t be entertaining a move away with parachute payments to cover the wages. 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

2 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

Character assassination, yeah ok. Like the one you’re trying to peddle on me? Aware of my age are you? But happy to call me silly and say I don’t understand human emotion, because all humans are completely the same emotionally are they? If you think this you’re as clueless  mad you think I am. Jury is out on Sorensen in my view. Has had better games and worse ones. 
You also apply a nice chunk of hypocrisy by stating with great confidence that Rowe and Springett overtook Tzolis because his confidence was drained. What evidence do you have for this this nugget of insight? Why is your theory ok to be baseless whereas mine is not? Big press release of statement made about how Tzolis has lost all of his confidence and that this was because big bad Daniel told him he shouldn’t have ignored team orders? So this is what, conjecture? Thought so, it’s just that I’m not insulting you for theorising this. It’s perfectly possible and up to you, but for gods sake let’s not let Rowe or Springett overhear your theory in case they realise they’re not in the team on merit but because Tzolis never got given a chance. 
if Placheta (agree is pants) is getting ahead of Tzolis then he is training better than Tzolis. My trust of Smith is greater than my trust of your expertise and it’s fair to say that he had watched him playing in training far more than you or I have on the pitch. Managers and coaches look for potential and take some risks. If they’re not willing to risk playing Tzolis ahead of Placheta in order to see if any potential he has comes to fruition or even feel with preseason underway that he is worth keeping for a league below, then clearly the risks are too great and the balance of probability is that he isn’t that good OR we are better off taking a financial bath of a million or so because we as a club are all about letting go of the odd million - that’s really sustainable isn’t it 😂. 

Let me retract any comments I’ve made about him possibly lacking resilience or lacking willingness to graft just so in the unlikely event he has found his way into the forum for a detailed review of his talent, I’m not going to make him cry - even if he has the confidence as a fresh new player to overrule the team and take a penalty against Liverpool, so clearly a shrinking violet. I’ll just replace my baseless theory with ‘Smith knows better than us’

What utter drivel!   

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

4 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

What utter drivel!   

You know better than Smith then. Or is your comment about the hypocrisy? 

If I’d thought I could just respond to your bilge with just ‘what utter drivel’ I’d have saved myself a lot of time in providing a reasoned argument. I know for next time. 

Enjoy the season. 

[Google Bot 3,259]

1 minute ago, SwearyCanary said:

I’ll pledge that if he stays with us and tears it up this year I’ll concede defeat

There's really no defeat to concede. That's your ego talking again.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

6 hours ago, Google Bot said:

There's really no defeat to concede. That's your ego talking again.

🙄 

[BroadstairsR 2,139]

The way I see it is that the club are far too committed to ship this boy out on the cheap, or at least with some revenue loss.

All the scouting, and all the hype, indicated that Tzolis was an exceptional prospect. Very with knobs on. 

This wasn't some youngster poached from Dartford F. C. that the club decided to spend a speculative £200, 000 on with the hopes of eventually reaping benefits. This was a £9m investment, a record amount, a large slice of our transfer budget at a crucial time.

Did so many people within the game get so much wrong? Was Farke's comment about the boy misplaced?

If this youngster proves to be a patch on the player that so much was expected from when faced with Premier League defenders then when confronted with those in the Championship he should, in theory, reek havoc next season.

Whether he will or not remains to be seen. Whatever problems he had could prevail, but I, for one, would be willing to risk it.

Most seem to think it was a big mistake buying the player in the first place. It could be a bigger mistake letting him go.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by BroadstairsR

[canarybubbles 1,915]

6 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

The way I see it is that the club are far too committed to ship this boy out on the cheap, or at least with some revenue loss.

All the scouting, and all the hype, indicated that Tzolis was an exceptional prospect. Very with knobs on. 

This wasn't some youngster poached from Dartford F. C. that the club decided to spend a speculative £200, 000 on with the hopes of eventually reaping benefits. This was a £9m investment, a record amount, a large slice of our transfer budget at a crucial time.

Did so many people within the game get so much wrong? Was Farke's comment about the boy misplaced?

If this youngster proves to be a patch on the player that so much was expected from when faced with Premier League defenders then when confronted with those in the Championship he should, in theory, reek havoc next season.

Whether he will or not remains to be seen. Whatever problems he had could prevail, but I, for one, would be willing to risk it.

Most seem to think it was a big mistake buying the player in the first place. It could be a bigger mistake letting him go.

 

I want to start by saying it's possible that Tzolis is a difficult character or a prima donna or melts under the slightest pressure or is a homesick boy who couldn't adapt - we just don't know.

But that's not how I read him, and even if he is difficult, it's hard not to conclude that he's been mishandled badly. If a club wants to be PL, it has to cope with difficult players and bring out the best in them. We appear to have given up on a player who we thought was worth 9m without even giving him a run of games. 

Yet another disaster from a season when every single decision we made seems to have been wrong. And judging by the possible news about Pukki today, there's no sign so far that anything has changed since the close of the season. The ****-ups just keep on coming.

[Yella Army 57]

I'd play Tzolis in the starting 11 when we kick start the new season. You will very soon know if he's going to be an asset or not in the Championship. I personally believe he is an exceptional attacking talent who has had a horrible start to his NCFC career by learning a new cou try and culture at the same time being part of a very unsuccessful side in the prem. Give him freedom in an attacking side in the champs and we will reap the rewards of many goals and assists from him.

[hogesar 9,619]

Tzolis benefits from the RvW factor.

Shows very, very little for us but is afforded unprecedented levels of patience from some based on previous hype, highlight videos and reputation. Often goes alongside being free'd from blame for anything that's gone wrong (RvW would have scored 20 had Snodgrass not taken the penalty) and equally the blame for failure drops onto the manager or club (Hughton style killed RvW).

[mastoola 183]

I personally hope we keep Tziolis    i think there is a player in there we can develop 

[Indy 3,290]

1 hour ago, mastoola said:

I personally hope we keep Tziolis    i think there is a player in there we can develop 

Agree, there’s certainly a decent player in there, but is he what’s needed in a new Smith team. 

[mastoola 183]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Agree, there’s certainly a decent player in there, but is he what’s needed in a new Smith team. 

If he was what is needed in a Smith team fighting for survival in the prem half way through the season then no.  However at the start of a full season in the championship i guess so.

[Indy 3,290]

1 minute ago, mastoola said:

If he was what is needed in a Smith team fighting for survival in the prem half way through the season then no.  However at the start of a full season in the championship i guess so.

Yes in the correct setup, but I’m not sure Smith will be playing two wingers, he might well go with two up top, and a diamond set up. I don’t know but just making a guess! 

[Google Bot 3,259]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

Agree, there’s certainly a decent player in there, but is he what’s needed in a new Smith team. 

I don't think he is under the current focus as a wide player, I think Tzolis in the PL would be better in the central areas.  Stocky, solid, good on the ball, low centre of gravity.  I think Smith looks for his wide men to have pace and then workers in midfield to press.

We've not seen enough of him in these leagues to know if his workrate is there, to my eye he seems to reserve his energy and concentrate into bursts.  That kinda puts him in the luxury player bracket in a Smith team - He can't get a start, and seemingly very little belief in him from Smith & co.

My hope is that no deal takes place and we're forced to utilise him, because at this level he can come on and be effective out wide which could lead to more frequent game time and an appreciation of what he can do in competitive first team action.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Google Bot

[hogesar 9,619]

He's stocky, but good on the ball is certainly subjective. His first touch has been diabolical in some of his appearances for us.