Tzolis to Bruges (loan to buy)

[ged in the onion bag 854]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The club are definitely partially responsible but you have absolutely no evidence to say Tzolis isn't responsible whatsoever. We have no idea if he's bothered training properly, if he's fallen out with other players / staff, if he's decided 2 weeks that despite telling the club he was happy to live in England he actually wasn't - there's far too much that goes on behind the scenes to be so definitive.

He's 19 / 20 and very young, Webber and Farke should have known the difficulties a youngster in a foreign country would have before we signed him and also that he wasn't what we needed at the time.   The club made all the mistakes that caused the problem.   Yes, he has plenty of money but no doubt he would want to play and realistically everyone expected too much from him.   

He couldn't win unless he hit the ground running off the bat and kept a place in the side which was made more unlikely by the signing of Rashica.    That he may have become unhappy, that he may have lost his way and any will as a consequence is not unreasonable or unexpected.    You seem very argumentative of late!   

[hogesar 9,618]

2 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

He's 19 / 20 and very young, Webber and Farke should have known the difficulties a youngster in a foreign country would have before we signed him and also that he wasn't what we needed at the time.   The club made all the mistakes that caused the problem.   Yes, he has plenty of money but no doubt he would want to play and realistically everyone expected too much from him.   

He couldn't win unless he hit the ground running off the bat and kept a place in the side which was made more unlikely by the signing of Rashica.    That he may have become unhappy, that he may have lost his way and any will as a consequence is not unreasonable or unexpected.    You seem very argumentative of late!   

I'm not argumentative, I just disagree with some of what you say and tell you why lol.

Club undoubtedly caused some problems but it doesn't mean the player didn't either. Like I said, we're not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

[CrankyCanary 32]

5 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

If we can recoup what we paid for him, that's a result. Thought we'd be taking a significant hit if we did sell him. Is there really enough money in the Belgian league that they could afford to pay around £10m for one player?!

Club Brugge, Genk, Gent, Anderlecht ETC... are all wealthy clubs who make lots of Money on developing youth to sell on to top 5 Leagues.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

I'm not argumentative, I just disagree with some of what you say and tell you why lol.

Club undoubtedly caused some problems but it doesn't mean the player didn't either. Like I said, we're not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

... and I applaud that you do justify yourself.    Like to think I do also and give valid argument based on what I can glean rationally from the information available.   I stick with the point, I don't disagree that its possible he made mistakes but he's very young, he's a kid (still), that has to be expected and if we hadn't took him away from the thriving situation he had going, then he wouldn't have ended up disappointed, unhappy and likely feeling unwanted since Rowe and then Springett came in ahead of him.   What's unreasonable about that.    We all have views based on limited information since the club understandably don't volunteer explanations.

[Canaries north 151]

The hope is he goes and does enough for them to sign him. If they did make an £8.5 million offer for him before then it's great business for them. No outlay, if he does well then great but if not then back he goes. For us I would rather we sold him even at a loss and reinvest the money. We have been told we need to sell to buy. Get £5 million in and go again. As with Cantwell sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on. Say we got 7 or 8 million by selling them both and wages off we could get 1 or 2 players who really want to be here. At the moment we could have Cantwell running down his contract and leaving for free  and a player out on loan for a season who could end up back with us. 

[Gordon Bennett 780]

4 hours ago, Bert said:

I hope we have someone different this window sorting out recruitment compared to last time otherwise it’s going to be a long season 

If it's the same person as the last two Championship campaigns I'm sure we'll be fine.

[Canary dwarf 221]

It's a shame I had real high hopes for the lad , even though I had never heard him , but the hype and expectation surrounding him I completely bought into , was he unhappy? Did farke and Smith just not rate him ? Was he not training well?  Who knows but would rather we got a fee for him now and cut our losses.😄

[Mason 47 1,373]

59 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

He's 19 / 20 and very young, Webber and Farke should have known the difficulties a youngster in a foreign country would have before we signed him and also that he wasn't what we needed at the time.   The club made all the mistakes that caused the problem.   Yes, he has plenty of money but no doubt he would want to play and realistically everyone expected too much from him.   

I don't disagree with this but he had played continental football and international level already. If memory serves his fledgling career was quite contingent on moving countries in not the best situations, too.

I think we rolled a pretty favourable dice with Tzolis, unfortunately in amongst the wreckage of the previous season, we ended up with the least-least-least positive outcome 

[Ken Hairy 3,759]

1 hour ago, Gordon Bennett said:

If it's the same person as the last two Championship campaigns I'm sure we'll be fine.

It's not, he went to Middlesbrough 😉

[hogesar 9,618]

4 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

It's not, he went to Middlesbrough 😉

Ah! So Webber never was to blame! It's whoevers underneath him. Thank god 😉

 

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 hours ago, Nora's Ghost said:

Another astute piece of business.

 

Who else can we lose money on I wonder? The list is extensive.

And yet we have made an overall profit on player sales since Webber came in. Losing a bit on lots of small deals but winning big on a few deals is the strategy. Speculate to accumulate. This is not new information. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by hertfordyellow

[Ken Hairy 3,759]

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Ah! So Webber never was to blame! It's whoevers underneath him. Thank god 😉

 

Of course that ignores the point that signings used to work out better before Webber's grubby mitts were in sole control of them 😜

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

The club are definitely partially responsible but you have absolutely no evidence to say Tzolis isn't responsible whatsoever. We have no idea if he's bothered training properly, if he's fallen out with other players / staff, if he's decided 2 weeks that despite telling the club he was happy to live in England he actually wasn't - there's far too much that goes on behind the scenes to be so definitive.

Didn't you get the memo hogesar? We held a gun to his head, made him sign for a newly promoted side in the toughest league in the world, in a country hundreds of miles away from a home he has never left before. He had no choice, we did double his wages though to make it look like we didn't hold a gun to his head but we definitely gave him no choice in the matter.

When he got here, he applied himself to the task well, trained like an absolute baller but two well respected coaches wouldn't play him because they were stupid or xenophobic or something and he totally should have played every game.

[king canary 7,578]

51 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

And yet we have made an overall profit on player sales since Webber came in. Losing a bit on lots of small deals but winning big on a few deals is the strategy. Speculate to accumulate. This is not new information. 

Sure, if your only goal is making the balance sheets look nice.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

It seems as if Smith has much more say about who comes in and who goes out than Farke did. Is this a wrong impression on my part? If not, is it because Webber has lost interest and is quite happy to delegate in a way that he didn't used to be? Is it because Farke was too respectful towards the DoF, having been brought up in a DoF system? Why are we placing so much trust in Smith, who did nothing last season to earn that trust? Have we effectively abandoned the DoF system, but Webber is hanging around to get the cash to climb his mountains before he sails off into the sunset? At the end of this, are we going to be stuck with a traditional English manager in a traditional English system playing traditional English football? Are we the first post-Brexit club?

[hogesar 9,618]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Sure, if your only goal is making the balance sheets look nice.

Well, also if your goal is to punch above your weight and i'd suggest our regular Premier League visits despite a lack of investment is doing just that.

[king canary 7,578]

13 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Well, also if your goal is to punch above your weight and i'd suggest our regular Premier League visits despite a lack of investment is doing just that.

Never suggested it wasn't. However our 'throw enough ****, see what sticks' transfer strategy seems to come undone at Premier League level, where hoping for the odd one of two big successes will likely lead to relegation.

[Chelm Canary 404]

Total failure as a signing but recouping the money should be seen as a get out of jail free card for Webber. 

I'm surprised anyone is willing to pay what we did for him after the season he's just had. 

Very lucky I would say.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Chelm Canary

[WD40 720]

9 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

Oooof. Good we get money back but doesnt look good in the recruitment dept. Bit of egg on their faces. 

Duplicate post

Edited June 24, 2022 by WD40
Duplicate post

[WD40 720]

1 hour ago, hertfordyellow said:

And yet we have made an overall profit on player sales since Webber came in. Losing a bit on lots of small deals but winning big on a few deals is the strategy. Speculate to accumulate. This is not new information. 

Disingenuous in the extreme. Most of the assets Webber flogged were here prior to him being at the club. Buendia was his signing, absolutely, but the gains there must be wiped out by messrs Rashica, Sargent and Tzolis. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

17 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

It seems as if Smith has much more say about who comes in and who goes out than Farke did. Is this a wrong impression on my part? If not, is it because Webber has lost interest and is quite happy to delegate in a way that he didn't used to be? Is it because Farke was too respectful towards the DoF, having been brought up in a DoF system? Why are we placing so much trust in Smith, who did nothing last season to earn that trust? Have we effectively abandoned the DoF system, but Webber is hanging around to get the cash to climb his mountains before he sails off into the sunset? At the end of this, are we going to be stuck with a traditional English manager in a traditional English system playing traditional English football? Are we the first post-Brexit club?

Honestly, give it a rest with the Smith bashing, all of you. It's just so tiresome. 

Yes he seems to have a bigger influence on transfers than Farke did. That's not down to anything Smith has or has not done, that's down to Webber ****ing up with over £50m. You want to know why we can't afford players this season? Webber and COVID. 

It's nothing to do with Farke either. Farke is gone. Get the **** over it. 

No we've not abandoned the DoF system. We still have a DoF and an assistant DoF in place. Smith appears to have a bigger say in things, but you'd be a fool to suggest Webber has no say in things. 

No, Webber isn't hanging around to get cash to climb mountains. He can be a much more effective fund raiser without being Norwich's Director of Football as well. You think a guy as likely connected as Webber would have any issue getting the money to run a charity? 

No we're not the first post Brexit club. What a fundamentally stupid question to ask. We're a club trying to do our best to bring this club back into the Premier League. 

Not everything has connections or sinister undertones. Webber isn't taking advantage of Norwich. Farke isn't hard done by. Smith isn't getting preferential treatment over any other manager. 

I'm not sure how much more anyone has to keep saying these things. 

[king canary 7,578]

1 minute ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Honestly, give it a rest with the Smith bashing, all of you. It's just so tiresome. 

Yes he seems to have a bigger influence on transfers than Farke did. That's not down to anything Smith has or has not done, that's down to Webber ****ing up with over £50m. You want to know why we can't afford players this season? Webber and COVID. 

It's nothing to do with Farke either. Farke is gone. Get the **** over it. 

No we've not abandoned the DoF system. We still have a DoF and an assistant DoF in place. Smith appears to have a bigger say in things, but you'd be a fool to suggest Webber has no say in things. 

No, Webber isn't hanging around to get cash to climb mountains. He can be a much more effective fund raiser without being Norwich's Director of Football as well. You think a guy as likely connected as Webber would have any issue getting the money to run a charity? 

No we're not the first post Brexit club. What a fundamentally stupid question to ask. We're a club trying to do our best to bring this club back into the Premier League. 

Not everything has connections or sinister undertones. Webber isn't taking advantage of Norwich. Farke isn't hard done by. Smith isn't getting preferential treatment over any other manager. 

I'm not sure how much more anyone has to keep saying these things. 

The idea that Smith is some classic British manager stereotype just doesn't stand up to even the most basic of scrutiny, so frustrating it keeps getting said.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

3 minutes ago, WD40 said:

Disingenuous in the extreme. Most of the assets Webber flogged were here prior to him being at the club. Buendia was his signing, absolutely, but the gains there must be wiped out by messrs Rashica, Sargent and Tzolis. 

Let's not beat around the bush. If Webber left tomorrow, a cold, hard, dispassionate look at his tenure would probably leave us thinking he has done more bad than good at the club. 

My view on Directors of Football is that they have to succeed in three fundamental respects.

1st is managerial appointments. Farke was ok. Massive ups, but massive downs too. The jury is out on Smith.

2nd is ensuring an environment capable of success. The appointment of the correct staff and availability of facilities. I think we can't dispute he's been a success. 

3rd is player purchases and sales. In this he's fundamentally failed. Buendia, Pukki, Hanley and Krul aside, Webber's transfer record has been appalling. Players like the Murphys, Godfrey, Lewis and Aarons were here before him and so I can't see we can give credit for them. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

The idea that Smith is some classic British manager stereotype just doesn't stand up to even the most basic of scrutiny, so frustrating it keeps getting said.

Spot on. 

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

36 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

It seems as if Smith has much more say about who comes in and who goes out than Farke did. Is this a wrong impression on my part? If not, is it because Webber has lost interest and is quite happy to delegate in a way that he didn't used to be? Is it because Farke was too respectful towards the DoF, having been brought up in a DoF system? Why are we placing so much trust in Smith, who did nothing last season to earn that trust? Have we effectively abandoned the DoF system, but Webber is hanging around to get the cash to climb his mountains before he sails off into the sunset? At the end of this, are we going to be stuck with a traditional English manager in a traditional English system playing traditional English football? Are we the first post-Brexit club?

I think it's simply Deano sat down with Webber and said look I don't think he's good enough for Championship football and I'm not going to pick him. That then leaves Webber the problem with what to do with him, hence the link to Belgium.

Equally Tzolis may have said I hate being in Norwich and England, please can I leave.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

Just now, Capt. Pants said:

I think it's simply Deano sat down with Webber and said look I don't think he's good enough for Championship football and I'm not going to pick him. That then leaves Webber the problem with what to do with him, hence the link to Belgium.

Equally Tzolis may have said I hate being in Norwich and England, please can I leave.

You're probably right about this, but the obvious question is how has Tzolis gone from one of the most promising young players on the European continent to someone who isn't even good enough for the Championship? This is placing a lot of trust in Smith's judgement.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

3 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

This is placing a lot of trust in Smith's judgement.

**** me. 

That's what you do with head coache or any managers  You don't pay them to ignore their decisions, do you? 

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

1 minute ago, canarybubbles said:

You're probably right about this, but the obvious question is how has Tzolis gone from one of the most promising young players on the European continent to someone who isn't even good enough for the Championship? This is placing a lot of trust in Smith's judgement.

Indeed it is and a fair few on here believed Tzolis would 'rip up the Championship'. It's a big call and I have to say I'm surprised we've agreed to an initial loan, which suggests maybe the player isn't happy here.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

Apparently, Webber had followed Tzolis's progress for a long time, and will have done a lot of research on the player before buying him. So you would think he would want very good evidence from Smith that Tzolis isn't even good enough for the Championship, especially since he hadn't even played him for a whole game out of the 27 he was coach for.

 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

2 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Indeed it is and a fair few on here believed Tzolis would 'rip up the Championship'. It's a big call and I have to say I'm surprised we've agreed to an initial loan, which suggests maybe the player isn't happy here.

Perhaps he isn't, but when a club pays 10m for a 19-year-old, it makes sure it does everything to integrate him. Of course, I don't know if Tzolis has issue problems, or is another Todd Cantwell, but if he is not, we have failed him. He was touted as one of the most promising youngsters in the whole of Europe, and then his manager ignores him completely and plays dross like Placheta and Sargent ahead of him. Do you expect him to be happy?

Anyway, he's gone, and we have Smith to thank for that. Next to come, Pukki. We are letting this mediocre manager destroy everything we have built up over the last five years.