Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Dean Coneys boots

Where are the new players?

Recommended Posts

I like the concept of playing the ball not the man. Whilst I’ll refrain from slating a Christian for being Christian (even though being gay means SOME Christian’s persecute me in the name of god), I am allowed to play the ball. 

To God, you’re a t***, stop giving kids cancer. Stop people killing each other because they have interpreted your lore differently, or at least make it less vague. For instance, do you really think I’m going to hell? Wasn’t it you that made me? That’s a bit of a nasty thing to do, setting me up to fail like that. 

Seriously though, determining religion (ANY religion before natural cynic loses his faeces) as a point for discrimination is interesting, because whilst I staunchly do not agree that people of a religious nature should be open ti discrimination, it is the one protected characteristic that I can see that is a choice and based on no scientific fact. It is more valid to make people with ginger hair legally protected as they can’t actually change that, so like LGBTQ, Ethnicity, Gender, etc which are all not choices - should religion which is a choice have the same level of protection and should ginger or grey hair be higher up in terms of legal protection? 

Discuss…. 
 

sorry, another one got he non footy chat to be fair 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to football again. I do think Hayden is a good signing but I do worry people are getting ahead of them selves. He is a DM, thank god. He has played and looked ok in the premier League, brilliant. Let's be honest here. He is coming to us on a loan to buy deal. As with Tzolis possibly leaving us on a similar deal this normally means things are not perfect. Tzolis has failed to impress 2 managers. Hayden has had a major injury. Also the fact Newcastle are willing to let him out on this deal and Spurs were never going to let Skipp go permanently says to me he will not be Skipp mark 2. Before anyone says anything I am very happy to get him and as long as the injury is healed and he is the same player I think it's great. The point I'm trying to raise is some people are raising the expectations a bit. Skipp was always going to be a spurs first team player. Hayden was not at Newcastle and no matter what you say about Newcastle and the money Spurs are a champions league team so a step up. I for one am excited to see him play but if he gets anywhere near the Skipp level I will be amazed. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

Back to football again. I do think Hayden is a good signing but I do worry people are getting ahead of them selves. He is a DM, thank god. He has played and looked ok in the premier League, brilliant. Let's be honest here. He is coming to us on a loan to buy deal. As with Tzolis possibly leaving us on a similar deal this normally means things are not perfect. Tzolis has failed to impress 2 managers. Hayden has had a major injury. Also the fact Newcastle are willing to let him out on this deal and Spurs were never going to let Skipp go permanently says to me he will not be Skipp mark 2. Before anyone says anything I am very happy to get him and as long as the injury is healed and he is the same player I think it's great. The point I'm trying to raise is some people are raising the expectations a bit. Skipp was always going to be a spurs first team player. Hayden was not at Newcastle and no matter what you say about Newcastle and the money Spurs are a champions league team so a step up. I for one am excited to see him play but if he gets anywhere near the Skipp level I will be amazed. 

Have you not heard about the sale of Newcastle recently? They clearly believe they are going to be among the big six in a year or two, so players who were previously acceptable for their league ambitions are no longer deemed up to the job as they will be spending millions on upgrades. 
 

Hayden, injuries excepted, is a level above where we would have been expected to be shopping, and is rated by the Toon fans who are not slow to complain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SwearyCanary said:

I like the concept of playing the ball not the man. Whilst I’ll refrain from slating a Christian for being Christian (even though being gay means SOME Christian’s persecute me in the name of god), I am allowed to play the ball. 

To God, you’re a t***, stop giving kids cancer. Stop people killing each other because they have interpreted your lore differently, or at least make it less vague. For instance, do you really think I’m going to hell? Wasn’t it you that made me? That’s a bit of a nasty thing to do, setting me up to fail like that. 

Seriously though, determining religion (ANY religion before natural cynic loses his faeces) as a point for discrimination is interesting, because whilst I staunchly do not agree that people of a religious nature should be open ti discrimination, it is the one protected characteristic that I can see that is a choice and based on no scientific fact. It is more valid to make people with ginger hair legally protected as they can’t actually change that, so like LGBTQ, Ethnicity, Gender, etc which are all not choices - should religion which is a choice have the same level of protection and should ginger or grey hair be higher up in terms of legal protection? 

Discuss…. 
 

sorry, another one got he non footy chat to be fair 

I agree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

 1)Tzolis has failed to impress 2 managers.

2) Spurs were never going to let Skipp go permanently says to me he will not be Skipp mark 2. Skipp was always going to be a spurs first team player.

3) Hayden was not at Newcastle and no matter what you say about Newcastle and the money Spurs are a champions league team so a step up.

1) Tzolis impressed Farke but last summer, it was fairly clear to see that they didn't see him as a regular starter yet. That last bit is important. I think what ended up happening was a lot of expectation being put on him due to his price tag, other players not stepping up to their previous levels (Cantwell, perhaps a bit of Dowell as well), injuries and illness to Sargent and Placheta which only put more pressure on him. When he didn't adapt as quickly as the pressure wanted, we heard from Smith who said he had talent but felt the player was suffering from that weight of expectation. Now we have been here before too. Farke said the same thing of Placheta - that he tried too hard. In many ways where we are at is more important than the how we got here. Tzolis would appear unhappy, represents a £9m wedge and there is a question to be asked in whether we look to continue to try and realise that investment or see if we can get a large part of it back. Sadly, it doesn't send out a very good message if he does go. One of the leading youngsters in Europe for stats and we couldn't develop him. The biggest criticism is the gamble to take such a player on when arguably we could have invested the money more wisely on a player who could have been ready for the season kick off.

2) Ah yes, hindsight that ever so powerful tool. I'm sure that when he came to us on loan, Spurs had high hopes for Skipp. No doubt some of his coaches believed he could become a first team player. But nothing is a sure bet. If he was that good at the point of us loaning him, he would never have been loaned out and instead would have been involved in the Spurs first team from the get go. They also changed managers by the time he went back. He'd not played a lot of football before he was loaned to us in terms of senior, league football. Like with many youngsters, loans are used to determine where they are at in terms of their levels. At the start of the season he was still learning, and a bit raw. By the end of the season he was most definitely a player who could step up another level. Again, if he had been that brilliant, they could have looked for a premier league loan too - as we have seen several of last season.

3) From what I can see, before he was injured he was available for selection for 18 games. Of those 18 games he was on the bench for 3 and missed a further game due to injury. Of the remaining 14 games, he started 12. He played the full 90mins for 9 of those games. One he was subbed off injured, the other two he was subbed at 61min and 67min. Both of those games Newcastle lost Vs Chelsea and Man City so, if I looked further, I should imagine he was brought off for a more attacking threat.

I don't think anyone is saying he'll be actual Skipp, just that we haven't signed someone since loaning Skipp, who could arguably fore fill that role effectively. Normann at the start of last season showed glimpses, and that form in the Championship would probably be more than suffice. His positioning was suspect at times, as was his decision making. Defensive mid should be simple first, break up play, get possession of the ball. Skipp, was incredibly effective at this as the season went on. Not a "presence" though physically, more of a no nonsense hard worker, perhaps a bit like Howson or (from a better side) Milner. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SwearyCanary said:

do you really think I’m going to hell? Wasn’t it you that made me? That’s a bit of a nasty thing to do, setting me up to fail like that. 

You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it,  And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you scream about it.

Yup, great track that one mate! 👍

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, chicken said:


So yeah, perhaps next time, before stepping out, yet again, to suggest that you and/or DCB are entirely innocent persecuted Christians, please just stop. It's embarrassing. 

I’m an atheist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Google Bot said:

You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it,  And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you scream about it.

Yup, great track that one mate! 👍

Accidental Eminem 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, chicken said:

Sadly, it doesn't send out a very good message if he does go. One of the leading youngsters in Europe for stats and we couldn't develop him.

Tbf you win some and lose some. Just take a look at Marcus Edwards as example. We couldn’t get a tune out of him. 

If Tzolis goes away and becomes a success elsewhere then it is what it is. Id say our reputation would still be in tact as a fantastic place to develop as a young player, we can point to Godfrey, Maddison and, even to an extent, Buendia. 

I’d also say Colney’s revamp is still in its early stages, what I mean by that is in terms of reputation. We can only get better and it’s only been 4 years since the major surgery was carried out with other upgrades on the way. 

One player who might not make it with us shouldn’t dent the club’s ambitions of creating a place a player can develop sitting within the top 10 of the country. (Though I’m not sure what they’re measuring those metrics on?)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

Tbf you win some and lose some. Just take a look at Marcus Edwards as example. We couldn’t get a tune out of him. 

If Tzolis goes away and becomes a success elsewhere then it is what it is. Id say our reputation would still be in tact as a fantastic place to develop as a young player, we can point to Godfrey, Maddison and, even to an extent, Buendia. 

I’d also say Colney’s revamp is still in its early stages, what I mean by that is in terms of reputation. We can only get better and it’s only been 4 years since the major surgery was carried out with other upgrades on the way. 

One player who might not make it with us shouldn’t dent the club’s ambitions of creating a place a player can develop sitting within the top 10 of the country. (Though I’m not sure what they’re measuring those metrics on?)

 

I don't disagree. And I hope you are right.

The advantage with Marcus Edwards was that he was a loan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Have you not heard about the sale of Newcastle recently? They clearly believe they are going to be among the big six in a year or two, so players who were previously acceptable for their league ambitions are no longer deemed up to the job as they will be spending millions on upgrades. 
 

Hayden, injuries excepted, is a level above where we would have been expected to be shopping, and is rated by the Toon fans who are not slow to complain.

Did I not mention Newcastle and the money? And do you really think he is as good a player as Skipp. If you think I didn't mention Newcastle and money then please read again. If you think he is as good as Skipp then that is your point of view and your welcome to it but I think the majority of people who follow football in general would rather have Skipp. That is all I was pointing out. Let's wait and see how he does. Spurs are a top 4 team and wanted to keep Skipp and as you yourself said Hayden isn't so that is what Newcastle are off loading him. That was my point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Have you not heard about the sale of Newcastle recently? They clearly believe they are going to be among the big six in a year or two, so players who were previously acceptable for their league ambitions are no longer deemed up to the job as they will be spending millions on upgrades. 
 

Hayden, injuries excepted, is a level above where we would have been expected to be shopping, and is rated by the Toon fans who are not slow to complain.

Did I not mention Newcastle and the money? And do you really think he is as good a player as Skipp. If you think I didn't mention Newcastle and money then please read again. If you think he is as good as Skipp then that is your point of view and your welcome to it but I think the majority of people who follow football in general would rather have Skipp. That is all I was pointing out. Let's wait and see how he does. Spurs are a top 4 team and wanted to keep Skipp and as you yourself said Hayden isn't so that is what Newcastle are off loading him. That was my point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, chicken said:

1) Tzolis impressed Farke but last summer, it was fairly clear to see that they didn't see him as a regular starter yet. That last bit is important. I think what ended up happening was a lot of expectation being put on him due to his price tag, other players not stepping up to their previous levels (Cantwell, perhaps a bit of Dowell as well), injuries and illness to Sargent and Placheta which only put more pressure on him. When he didn't adapt as quickly as the pressure wanted, we heard from Smith who said he had talent but felt the player was suffering from that weight of expectation. Now we have been here before too. Farke said the same thing of Placheta - that he tried too hard. In many ways where we are at is more important than the how we got here. Tzolis would appear unhappy, represents a £9m wedge and there is a question to be asked in whether we look to continue to try and realise that investment or see if we can get a large part of it back. Sadly, it doesn't send out a very good message if he does go. One of the leading youngsters in Europe for stats and we couldn't develop him. The biggest criticism is the gamble to take such a player on when arguably we could have invested the money more wisely on a player who could have been ready for the season kick off.

2) Ah yes, hindsight that ever so powerful tool. I'm sure that when he came to us on loan, Spurs had high hopes for Skipp. No doubt some of his coaches believed he could become a first team player. But nothing is a sure bet. If he was that good at the point of us loaning him, he would never have been loaned out and instead would have been involved in the Spurs first team from the get go. They also changed managers by the time he went back. He'd not played a lot of football before he was loaned to us in terms of senior, league football. Like with many youngsters, loans are used to determine where they are at in terms of their levels. At the start of the season he was still learning, and a bit raw. By the end of the season he was most definitely a player who could step up another level. Again, if he had been that brilliant, they could have looked for a premier league loan too - as we have seen several of last season.

3) From what I can see, before he was injured he was available for selection for 18 games. Of those 18 games he was on the bench for 3 and missed a further game due to injury. Of the remaining 14 games, he started 12. He played the full 90mins for 9 of those games. One he was subbed off injured, the other two he was subbed at 61min and 67min. Both of those games Newcastle lost Vs Chelsea and Man City so, if I looked further, I should imagine he was brought off for a more attacking threat.

I don't think anyone is saying he'll be actual Skipp, just that we haven't signed someone since loaning Skipp, who could arguably fore fill that role effectively. Normann at the start of last season showed glimpses, and that form in the Championship would probably be more than suffice. His positioning was suspect at times, as was his decision making. Defensive mid should be simple first, break up play, get possession of the ball. Skipp, was incredibly effective at this as the season went on. Not a "presence" though physically, more of a no nonsense hard worker, perhaps a bit like Howson or (from a better side) Milner. 

Point number 1 I agree. We were not in a position to spend that sort of money on future prospects and needed players for the here and now. I would cash in now for half the money we paid and reinvest. I don't like the idea of a loan with an option on young players. If he's poor we get him back worth even less. If he's good he's gone for under value. 

 

Point number 2 players are loaned out to get experience. They are not loaned out with a right to buy unless you are looking to get rid (tzolis). When Beckham went to Preston did they have a right to buy. What I was saying and I will say it again Hayden is and probably never will be the player Skipp is. People's expectations need to be that he is a great signing if recovered but let's keep a lid on it and wait and see. 

Point 3. As I said it's great that we are trying to fill what was an obvious hole in our squad. Norman never looked like a defensive midfielder to me just one who would have a go at the job but would rather be further forward. I will still say the injury is a worry. He has had a major operation and some players don't come back the same. All things going well he will be and a great addition. I'm just trying to keep the expectations down a bit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

Did I not mention Newcastle and the money? And do you really think he is as good a player as Skipp. If you think I didn't mention Newcastle and money then please read again. If you think he is as good as Skipp then that is your point of view and your welcome to it but I think the majority of people who follow football in general would rather have Skipp. That is all I was pointing out. Let's wait and see how he does. Spurs are a top 4 team and wanted to keep Skipp and as you yourself said Hayden isn't so that is what Newcastle are off loading him. That was my point. 

It's completely irrelevant comparing Hayden and Skipp. Not only are they two very different players despite playing the same position, comparing someone we have the opportunity to buy as opposed to one we never had the smallest possibility of doing so is equally as pointless.

No one in our division will sign a better CM than Hayden in this window. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

I like the concept of playing the ball not the man. Whilst I’ll refrain from slating a Christian for being Christian (even though being gay means SOME Christian’s persecute me in the name of god), I am allowed to play the ball. 

To God, you’re a t***, stop giving kids cancer. Stop people killing each other because they have interpreted your lore differently, or at least make it less vague. For instance, do you really think I’m going to hell? Wasn’t it you that made me? That’s a bit of a nasty thing to do, setting me up to fail like that. 

Seriously though, determining religion (ANY religion before natural cynic loses his faeces) as a point for discrimination is interesting, because whilst I staunchly do not agree that people of a religious nature should be open ti discrimination, it is the one protected characteristic that I can see that is a choice and based on no scientific fact. It is more valid to make people with ginger hair legally protected as they can’t actually change that, so like LGBTQ, Ethnicity, Gender, etc which are all not choices - should religion which is a choice have the same level of protection and should ginger or grey hair be higher up in terms of legal protection? 

Discuss…. 
 

sorry, another one got he non footy chat to be fair 

Just a point of clarification, I’d suggest unlike other characteristics Religion is something you could change rather than you necessarily choose. Whereas sexuality for instance isn’t.

A great many people don’t choose religion, they are effectively indoctrinated into it whether they see it that way or not. That isn’t me saying religion is bad, we are all collectively or within groups indoctrinated into many social and societal norms. Just pointing out that it often isn’t a choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Just a point of clarification, I’d suggest unlike other characteristics Religion is something you could change rather than you necessarily choose. Whereas sexuality for instance isn’t.

A great many people don’t choose religion, they are effectively indoctrinated into it whether they see it that way or not. That isn’t me saying religion is bad, we are all collectively or within groups indoctrinated into many social and societal norms. Just pointing out that it often isn’t a choice.

It is in this country though where compulsory education offers information on most religions as well as plenty of subjects that contradict much of the backbone of these religions. At some stage we make a choice to remain with whatever religion we were brought up as or to move from it or even to join one. All choices, some more influenced than others. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

It is in this country though where compulsory education offers information on most religions as well as plenty of subjects that contradict much of the backbone of these religions. At some stage we make a choice to remain with whatever religion we were brought up as or to move from it or even to join one. All choices, some more influenced than others. 

I think you are underestimating the hold some religions have. To some people leaving them means persecution, exile or other horrendous consequences.

Also there’s a difference between what people hold to be literal truths and what they hold as beliefs. If you are modern follower of religion and believe in literal elements of often ancient texts that can be disproved I think you are a moron personally.

Conversely no one can categorically prove there isn’t a god (as much as an atheist I wish we could), therefore if you are brought up within a religion and believe in god and have reconciled that with the discrepancies of your religious text I don’t see why you’d necessarily be inclined to recant that belief.

My personal view is it is something that should be protected but that protection should be weighed against the chance and level of persecution. 

Ultimately I’m of the opinion hate is hate and while historical grievances make some more prominently in need of action than others, we shouldn’t accept any of it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hogesar said:

It's completely irrelevant comparing Hayden and Skipp. Not only are they two very different players despite playing the same position, comparing someone we have the opportunity to buy as opposed to one we never had the smallest possibility of doing so is equally as pointless.

No one in our division will sign a better CM than Hayden in this window. 

Again saying no one will sign a better CM than Hayden in this window is a brave comment and I hope you are correct. I am personally going to wait and see. All I have been saying all along is he's a good player but let's not make the mistake of getting too excited until we see him play. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway....

Whats the general view on the positions we need to strengthen going into this season?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Anyway....

Whats the general view on the positions we need to strengthen going into this season?

Attacking midfield, and for me CB too, id not be averse to actually having back up at DM as if Hayden gets crocked we are back to square one 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, SwearyCanary said:

Attacking midfield, and for me CB too, id not be averse to actually having back up at DM as if Hayden gets crocked we are back to square one 

Definitely AM, we need that Emi/Maddison/Wes type that gets on the ball and makes things happen . 

I wouldn’t get a CB personally unless one leaves or there’s a bargain out there with PL potential.

Agree 1 DM is risky but maybe they see Sorensen as good enough backup in the Champs?

Think we need another CM personally, assume we will go some variation of 433. Sorensen, Lees-Melou, Hayden and McClean is still very light in that department.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 1902 said:

Anyway....

Whats the general view on the positions we need to strengthen going into this season?

CM - if a genuine upgrade is available and willing to come to us.

CAM - or similar, basically an Emi / Todd replacement.

ST - A young striker we think we can mould into the next Pukki, not necessarily a starter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another Center midfielder 

A right winger 

A striker 

Defense should be good for this league... Needs a serious upgrade if we manage another promotion

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...