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Posted (edited)

You win some you lose some. Adshead definitely signed with a lot of promise. But he's been given chances. Trained with the first team. Had decent opportunities on loan. It's just not fallen for him has it? Right he be moved on.

Edited by Terminally Yellow

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39 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

That is possible but sometimes the dynamic isn't right in certain situations, other teams play differently, the player can't settle.  Fact is though that Famewo for example was performing really well for Charlton who had a long run of clean sheets until injury to him and his long time CB partner.... also McCallum is QPR young player of the season apparently.   The Cally manager raved about McAlear (he would I suppose) and he did change a number of games plus was ever present.   Regardless of the standard, you have to acknowledge these are still young lads with potential to develop further.   Time will tell.   

 

Rather see us let McLean, Zimmerman, Platcheta, Hugill etc... go mutually than these lads.   Yes, I know they have contracts but we really need to be working v.hard on offloading those players.

Can have an opinion for or against any player leaving or joining the club of course, but its a fact we need to trim the overall number of players we have and as in most previous transfer windows its the younger guys who seem to get the leave first, followed shortly after by the Hugill or Placheta types and perhaps an Aarons type bigger money move.

Can only guess the final outcome of the clubs ins  and outs when this window closes but picking purely random numbers it may read something like 10 out and 3 or 4 in..that is what i would expect anyway.

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53 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

No, it isn't pointless. It highlights the massive disparity in wages between tier 1 and tier 3 clubs.

Adshead was playing first team football in his home town.

He chose to move some 200 miles and step down to 'development' football

If you don't believe that his choice was influenced by a significant rise in wages then I am not sure you understand how the football economy works.

Oh good.

Another one of 'these' accounts.

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54 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Releasing proven players at the level you're playing at and replacing them with youngsters who haven't even proven themselves in the division below is normally what relegates a team. There are plenty of examples, but the only time clubs are stupid enough to do this is when they're in a financial situation that means they have to.

 

Who in that list is 'proven'.   I suspect you could argue McLean!   Zimmermann is always injured. 

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58 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Releasing proven players at the level you're playing at and replacing them with youngsters who haven't even proven themselves in the division below is normally what relegates a team. There are plenty of examples, but the only time clubs are stupid enough to do this is when they're in a financial situation that means they have to.

 

Not sure about that, specifically when you have a model that relies on bringing youth through. I don't think we should be clearing everyone out but you ideally don't want too many established players blocking the route for younger ones coming through. McLean I'd disagree with Ged on but is it really worth keeping Zimmerman or Placheta around to block the route of Tomkinson or Rowe? 

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22 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not sure about that, specifically when you have a model that relies on bringing youth through. I don't think we should be clearing everyone out but you ideally don't want too many established players blocking the route for younger ones coming through. McLean I'd disagree with Ged on but is it really worth keeping Zimmerman or Placheta around to block the route of Tomkinson or Rowe? 

Last summer I still had belief that Placheta could make the grade but can’t see it happening now. With two years left I would either try and sell him this summer or send him out on loan with an option to buy. Zimmermann I would probably release when his contract expires next summer, so Tomkinson can go out on loan next season

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39 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not sure about that, specifically when you have a model that relies on bringing youth through. I don't think we should be clearing everyone out but you ideally don't want too many established players blocking the route for younger ones coming through. McLean I'd disagree with Ged on but is it really worth keeping Zimmerman or Placheta around to block the route of Tomkinson or Rowe? 

 

45 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Who in that list is 'proven'.   I suspect you could argue McLean!   Zimmermann is always injured. 

I'm going by Ged's longer list he's given in another post as opposed to the 'etc' list he's given here.

The list he gave on another thread included the likes of McLean, Hugill, Dowell, Sargent and Gibson. I would suggest other than getting rid of Hugill from that list, the rest would be significantly weakening the squad.

We've had a model that relies on bringing youth through for years but we haven't had to clear out loads of experienced proven players. A few have naturally progressed and taken their place at the right time.

That was under Farke who had a fantastic record of bringing players in at the right time. No idea how Smith will perform in this regard.

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8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

 

I'm going by Ged's longer list he's given in another post as opposed to the 'etc' list he's given here.

The list he gave on another thread included the likes of McLean, Hugill, Dowell, Sargent and Gibson. I would suggest other than getting rid of Hugill from that list, the rest would be significantly weakening the squad.

We've had a model that relies on bringing youth through for years but we haven't had to clear out loads of experienced proven players. A few have naturally progressed and taken their place at the right time.

That was under Farke who had a fantastic record of bringing players in at the right time. No idea how Smith will perform in this regard.

Again, not really sure about that. We had several experienced players training by themselves not long ago as we were so keen to be shot of them.

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Just now, king canary said:

Again, not really sure about that. We had several experienced players training by themselves not long ago as we were so keen to be shot of them.

Yeah, once younger players had proven themselves. And again, it wasn't suddenly shipping out Mclean, Hugill, Dowell, Sargent and Gibson in one window.

That makes zero sense and, more importantly so don't know why i'm bothering to discuss it, wont' happen.

Not least because Dowell and Sargent are still relatively young themselves.

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Just now, hogesar said:

 

I'm going by Ged's longer list he's given in another post as opposed to the 'etc' list he's given here.

The list he gave on another thread included the likes of McLean, Hugill, Dowell, Sargent and Gibson. I would suggest other than getting rid of Hugill from that list, the rest would be significantly weakening the squad.

We've had a model that relies on bringing youth through for years but we haven't had to clear out loads of experienced proven players. A few have naturally progressed and taken their place at the right time.

That was under Farke who had a fantastic record of bringing players in at the right time. No idea how Smith will perform in this regard.

Agreed. Although Hugill can cut it in the Championship losing him won’t make much difference as he’s last in the pecking order. McLean, Dowell, and Gibson are fine in the Championship, and although Sargent’s unproven I’m confident he’ll do well - he’s still only 22 anyway

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3 hours ago, NewNestCarrow said:

No, it isn't pointless. It highlights the massive disparity in wages between tier 1 and tier 3 clubs.

Adshead was playing first team football in his home town.

He chose to move some 200 miles and step down to 'development' football

If you don't believe that his choice was influenced by a significant rise in wages then I am not sure you understand how the football economy works.

What wage is Adshead on? If you don't know this and know for a fact it was beyond Gillingham to match at least a lions share then this is pointless. I'm sure you have extensive understanding of football economics, but kinda want to deal with facts rather than you saying 'I just know OK'.

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3 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

You win some you lose some. Adshead definitely signed with a lot of promise. But he's been given chances. Trained with the first team. Had decent opportunities on loan. It's just not fallen for him has it? Right he be moved on.

Maybe also injuries might be a factor. Our medical team may know why he is injured a lot and know it isn't going to get better.

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Daniel Adshead has completed a permanent move away from Norwich City to join League One outfit Cheltenham Town. 

Confirmed.

Good luck lad. 

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6 hours ago, king canary said:

Loan fees from clubs like Telstar and Gillingham will be minimal.

I do get the 'model' with these players but of those in the 18-20 year old bracket that we've signed since Webber joined I think Martin and Mumba is the only ones to have made a remote impact on the first team and most seem to leave on free transfers a couple of years later. I get we take a number of punts but they aren't really playing out right now.

Depends. I think Webber would point to the likes of Idah and Omobamidele who would both cost £10m+ if we tried to buy them on the open market. Youth recruitment is hard because whilst you can see talent at 17/18, there's always the question (especially in the central areas) of how much a player can bulk up and add muscle mass.

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54 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

What wage is Adshead on? If you don't know this and know for a fact it was beyond Gillingham to match at least a lions share then this is pointless. I'm sure you have extensive understanding of football economics, but kinda want to deal with facts rather than you saying 'I just know OK'.

It is not a case of 'knowing', it is just common sense and (football) economics.

Not having the exact figures does not prevent a logical conclusion being reached.

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49 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

It is not a case of 'knowing', it is just common sense and (football) economics.

Not having the exact figures does not prevent a logical conclusion being reached.

😂 ok. What are your qualifications in football economics btw?

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5 hours ago, Yella Army said:

I would guess Adshead would be on something between 1-2k a week which I don't this is too high for a club like Gillingham.

Seems fair in terms of what a Club like Gillingham is prepared to pay and what a footballer at this level is worth. 

Question is though, have we been topping it up further and if so why? How and why have we retained the player rights if the answer is no?

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3 hours ago, hogesar said:

 

I'm going by Ged's longer list he's given in another post as opposed to the 'etc' list he's given here.

The list he gave on another thread included the likes of McLean, Hugill, Dowell, Sargent and Gibson. I would suggest other than getting rid of Hugill from that list, the rest would be significantly weakening the squad.

We've had a model that relies on bringing youth through for years but we haven't had to clear out loads of experienced proven players. A few have naturally progressed and taken their place at the right time.

That was under Farke who had a fantastic record of bringing players in at the right time. No idea how Smith will perform in this regard.

I seem to take a different view to quite a few although I agree the club will follow a route of immediate promotion and stick with many players that in my view are 1) average EFL players at best and 2) certainly not capable in the EPL where we want to be.    All on that list I quoted plus Platcheta fit both categories.... not even McLean is a top Championship player.... he's simply average at that level... he didn't get us promotion last time, Skipp was our driving force in midfield and Buendia was phenomenal.     I fear we get promoted again but at present the team is far worse (first-team personnel wise) than the last relegation.    We need to reduce the squad anyway and start again, develop a team.   That means giving opportunities along with signing a few players as we will no doubt do.   For me, we could find a midfielder more productive than McLean for £2-4M who can contribute and develop.   We won't be selling McLean for that much that's for sure!       

Because we don't have much cash, we need to develop a team and we can't do that when players get in the way and in my view all of these are in the way.    We certainly have better players than those quoted (except in midfield) to be competitive enough without additions.   

I don't see what any of them currently offer that is going to make us any more competitive or help us develop a better team.   

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6 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Seems fair in terms of what a Club like Gillingham is prepared to pay and what a footballer at this level is worth. 

Question is though, have we been topping it up further and if so why? How and why have we retained the player rights if the answer is no?

Why are you constantly asking questions like this which no-one on here is ever likely to be able to answer? My assumption is that it’s a “throw enough mud and some of it will stick” type of motivation because of your ridiculous grudge with the club, but please correct me if I’m doing you a disservice.

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5 hours ago, king canary said:

… is it really worth keeping Zimmerman or Placheta around to block the route of Tomkinson or Rowe? 

Sadly, the only thing Placheta should be blocking is the draught coming under a door.

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Cheltenham Town is a really well run club who have a record of scouting potential when the parent club doesn't see it.  They pick up a lot of Bristol (Rovers or City) academy products.

Good luck Adshead, I suspect that you will be fine.

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45 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Why are you constantly asking questions like this which no-one on here is ever likely to be able to answer? My assumption is that it’s a “throw enough mud and some of it will stick” type of motivation because of your ridiculous grudge with the club, but please correct me if I’m doing you a disservice.

That seems like the plan. It only takes one or two success stories for it to all be worthwhile 

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Dennis, Bushiri & Adshead all sold in this window with 12 months remaining on their contracts. I'd expect Soto and Famewo to do the same.

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8 hours ago, Bert said:

Yet another example of how our scouting of  talent has let us down. Heading for another bad  transfer window, you couldn’t make it up 

Sounding more like Waveneyo every day.  To55er.

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31 minutes ago, Move Klose said:

Dennis, Bushiri & Adshead all sold in this window with 12 months remaining on their contracts. I'd expect Soto and Famewo to do the same.

Better than letting them leave for free after paying another year's salary....

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Nice to see our academy generously supplying lower league clubs with players.

 

One day they will find one good enough to hang on to.

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10 hours ago, king canary said:

Not sure about that, specifically when you have a model that relies on bringing youth through. I don't think we should be clearing everyone out but you ideally don't want too many established players blocking the route for younger ones coming through. McLean I'd disagree with Ged on but is it really worth keeping Zimmerman or Placheta around to block the route of Tomkinson or Rowe? 

It's rarely that simple I feel.

When it comes to that "path to the first team" it also means the steps before getting to it, not just the final step of being in the starting 11. So if you have an U23's that is starting to bulge and you have another year coming through along with a group of youngsters who have been out on loan for a couple of seasons you have the same choice to make, albeit more focused around that level.

There are only so many coaches, so much time that can be given to individuals and hanging on to a player who turns 21 in September could potentially partially or fully block a more promising younger player getting more focus from/time with coaches etc. There is a finite level.

Also, how many youngsters can the club afford to keep on the books? Sure, a loan out might make them "carbon neutral" in terms of financial footprint, but then new contracts have to be offered, would a 21yr old want to sign a single year?

I guess what I am saying is we don't know all of the ins and outs. If you had asked folks on here at the start of the year which would be the next youngster to impact the first team squad how many would have named Rowe or Springett ahead of Tomkinson or Adshead for example? I think you'd be hard pushed to see those names mentioned much on here until this season just gone bar perhaps the one or two posters who regularly attend academy games etc.

There are too many unknown factors. Does the academy have it's own budget in terms of wages for young pros from say, 16-22? Is there a limit on player numbers for each age group? Do they consider whether an U23 is blocking the path for an U21 who they see as having better potential?

We see this every season, and without fail, every season, people will complain that a certain player was going to be huge for us. Inevitably we rarely, if ever, see players released in this way from the last 5-10yrs, end up doing better than where we are as a club.

Case in point - Danny Crow.

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Promising player but only a year left on his contract and not near the first team. He might  have been ready next season after another loan but then could have walked away for free anyway. A case of cashing out. Good luck to the lad.

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I suspect that leg injury he got threw him back quite a bit. Long-term injuries can be shockers for young players, particularly if they've not fully matured physically to begin with.

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