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I've seen a few complaints on here about 'how come we have to sell to buy' this summer.

I think it is worth remembering that this is, in fact, the norm for newly relegated teams. The money from the Premier League largely gets sucked up on wages even after relegation and generally relegated clubs don't have huge amounts of cash sloshing around, unless they have very rich owners.

For example from the last few seasons....(figures from transfermarkt)

Sheffield United - net trasnfer profit of £25m

West Brom- net transfer profit of £11m

Bournemouth- net transfer profit of £80m (!)

Watford- net transfer profit of £60m

Norwich- net transfer profit of £27m

Cardiff- net transfer profit of £2m

Huddersfield- net transfer profit of £15m

Fulham seem to be the only team who buck the trend of spending more than they make in their first season after relegation.

 

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I suppose also is, upon relegation, most clubs have one or two players who played well in the Prem and have interest from the league above. They want to leave and the club wants money to re-structure the team.

I guess on top of that quite often you see a managerial change at a team that gets relegated, either during the season or upon relegation. That manager then wants to put his stamp on so it's more than just signing one or two players.

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Probably only Rashica and Max will bring in sizeable fees and we would probably do well to get £25m in total for them. How much we're likely to spend is anyone's guess 

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So the Premier League is no longer the Land of Milk and Honey after all.

The implications of this are that actual  investing in an English football club is a non-starter.  

Burnley's current malaise would seem to confirm this, as they managed the very thing us City supporters cry out for, ie. a few years of existence at the top table rather than the regular one season of ignominious failure.

It does make you wonder why there seems to be a steady supply of individuals or collectives still anxious to get involved in the English game.

The conclusion from this, for a middle-sized club like NCFC, would seem to be just get promoted, keep the same squad without massively increasing the wage bill and accept the television money, the relegation and the parachutes.

This is the very thing that City have been very unfairly criticised for in the recent past, including by some in the upper echelons of the game. But who created this situation in the first place?

Beware then those at Milwaukee Brewers, beware even more then Arizona Pension funds, there's no money in them there medium-sized football clubs after all.

Of course, the worldwide appeal of the Premier League, which can offer certain promotional advantages, might be enough for some and others might have an eye on the bigger picture involving multi-use stadiums and structural improvement towards multi-complexes of some sort, but you will still need customers galore to make investment viable.

Perhaps Delia has been right all along ... but we suspected that, in any case 😉 

 

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This is where Webber has failed the most in my eyes 

the squad now is worth less than Two seasons ago when we went down 

the Assets we have to make a Big profit on is now Max 

i would be very surprised if we got a profit or money back on any of last years signings 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, norfolkngood said:

This is where Webber has failed the most in my eyes 

the squad now is worth less than Two seasons ago when we went down 

the Assets we have to make a Big profit on is now Max 

i would be very surprised if we got a profit or money back on any of last years signings 

 

 

 

I think the Sarge might have reached a ceiling as far as value goes, but you never know.

Tzolis could go either way. I'm one of the optimistic ones.

Rashica had admirers before last Summer and might well yield a small (very) profit in the marketplace.

The big (financial) mistakes were made in the loan market. We got virtually zilch value for a lot of money. 

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12 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I think the Sarge might have reached a ceiling as far as value goes, but you never know.

Tzolis could go either way. I'm one of the optimistic ones.

Rashica had admirers before last Summer and might well yield a small (very) profit in the marketplace.

The big (financial) mistakes were made in the loan market. We got virtually zilch value for a lot of money. 

Exactly the assets to sell are smaller now than before

we had Emi / Max / even Cantwell 

Emi money has gone on players we will not make a profit on for sure this window 

cantwell well hindsight is wonderful but maybe could have cashed in ? 

so that leaves Max 

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26 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I think the Sarge might have reached a ceiling as far as value goes, but you never know.

Tzolis could go either way. I'm one of the optimistic ones.

Rashica had admirers before last Summer and might well yield a small (very) profit in the marketplace.

The big (financial) mistakes were made in the loan market. We got virtually zilch value for a lot of money. 

Not sure about Rashica; I think we'd bite the hand off anyone offering what we paid for him.

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4 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Not sure about Rashica; I think we'd bite the hand off anyone offering what we paid for him.

We are not really in a strong postion with Rashica 

he did not really set the world a light also if reports are true he wants to move so to get any profit or the fee we paid will be very hard 

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14 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Not sure about Rashica; I think we'd bite the hand off anyone offering what we paid for him.

I think one of our issues is that I've no doubt several mid-table Bundesliga clubs would be delighted to sign Rashica, unfortunately though the money in the Bundesliga pales in comparison to the Premier League. In order to make a decent profit we really need a Premier League club or one of the bigger German teams to take a fancy to him which isn't likely to happen.

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5 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think one of our issues is that I've no doubt several mid-table Bundesliga clubs would be delighted to sign Rashica, unfortunately though the money in the Bundesliga pales in comparison to the Premier League. In order to make a decent profit we really need a Premier League club or one of the bigger German teams to take a fancy to him which isn't likely to happen.

Yep, I'm not optimistic on the Rashica situation at all. The two most likely outcomes for me are we take a bath on it and flog him for £5 or 6 million or we have a sulky winger on the books to deal with.

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Posted (edited)

What a mess!   

Need to establish who is going to be in this team long-term on ability alone and who couldn't hack the EPL.... 

Rashica stays at all costs, none of this Emi nonsense.... he signed a contract....   Tzolis needs opportunity... Sargent sadly failed and thankfully the loans have gone.   

The signings have little value, at least Rashica and Tzolis have potential...

We need to be concentrating on getting the deadwood out, McLean, Dowell, Zimmermann, Platcheta, Hugill, Sargent and possibly Gibson.   Sadly, I suspect they will all be here getting in the way next season.    

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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Considering Smith said the Dowell-Pukki partnership was something he was looking at, I think it's reasonable enough to say Smith doesn't think he's deadwood.

Can't afford to lose too many considering how condensed this season is going to be with the World Cup in the middle of it.

The Norwich City attacking partnership Dean Smith hopes will take Championship by storm - Norfolk Live

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12 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Considering Smith said the Dowell-Pukki partnership was something he was looking at, I think it's reasonable enough to say Smith doesn't think he's deadwood.

Can't afford to lose too many considering how condensed this season is going to be with the World Cup in the middle of it.

The Norwich City attacking partnership Dean Smith hopes will take Championship by storm - Norfolk Live

Got to be a mixture of deadwood out and fresh potential in 

if we are lucky enough to go up Dowell is not going to play PL Pukki will then maybe to old 

So we need a mixture a team to go up and a team that might progress to keep us up 

easy to say but can be done 

otherwise we end up with a team with no links no  partnerships no understanding of each other like last season 

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1 hour ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Webber really pi$$ed the Emi cash up the wall didn’t he?

I think that's premature.

Again, he hedged his bets on younger players. Therefore, if all or a combination of Tzolis, Sargent, Rashica, PLM are instrumental in us getting promoted instantly again, not only will their values be at least what we paid for them, but they'll have also earnt the club another promotion.

He failed in securing us players good enough to keep us up but he may not have wasted the money ala Naismith.

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7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think that's premature.

Again, he hedged his bets on younger players. Therefore, if all or a combination of Tzolis, Sargent, Rashica, PLM are instrumental in us getting promoted instantly again, not only will their values be at least what we paid for them, but they'll have also earnt the club another promotion.

He failed in securing us players good enough to keep us up but he may not have wasted the money ala Naismith.

I think the safely safely approach is very business minded. The assets he has purchased should increase in value, in theory, with development and experience in Sarge, Tzolis, Placheta. Rashica we got for good money compared to Bailey of similar mould so should be able to get our money back. I am slightly concerned about the Rashica situation, if he doesn't want to stay I can't see many big clubs coming in for him after what was effectively a completely disastrous season for him. He may well still be here after the summer, let's hope is heart is in it if he is

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2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Yep, I'm not optimistic on the Rashica situation at all. The two most likely outcomes for me are we take a bath on it and flog him for £5 or 6 million or we have a sulky winger on the books to deal with.

He signed a 4 year deal only this year, there was always the possibility that this would include time in the championship.

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46 minutes ago, Haus said:

He signed a 4 year deal only this year, there was always the possibility that this would include time in the championship.

Indeed there was. Do you think if the reports are true and he does want out then someone should just remind him of that fact and he'll be alright?

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

Indeed there was. Do you think if the reports are true and he does want out then someone should just remind him of that fact and he'll be alright?

Bit like Buendia, really. Could work for all concerned - produce a ripsnorter of a season in the Champs, and you will invariably get a larger club coming after you.

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1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Bit like Buendia, really. Could work for all concerned - produce a ripsnorter of a season in the Champs, and you will invariably get a larger club coming after you.

It would only work if the money we then got for him was well spent.

And also, Buendia came down with a glowing reputation, Rashica has come down with nothing of the sort unfortunately.

Time will tell, but whatever the permutations, I think Rashica staying and have a Buendia-esque season wouldn't be the outcome getting short odds. 

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

It would only work if the money we then got for him was well spent.

And also, Buendia came down with a glowing reputation, Rashica has come down with nothing of the sort unfortunately.

Time will tell, but whatever the permutations, I think Rashica staying and have a Buendia-esque season wouldn't be the outcome getting short odds. 

Aye, but the basic premise of earning his move off a very strong Championship season would be similar. Not to mention, Buendia also wanted to leave after the relegation, didn't he?

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22 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Indeed there was. Do you think if the reports are true and he does want out then someone should just remind him of that fact and he'll be alright?

I just dont understand how players often seem confused by it, like it wasnt what they signed on for.  

 

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2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Indeed there was. Do you think if the reports are true and he does want out then someone should just remind him of that fact and he'll be alright?

There are levels of 'wanting out' though. Is he sulking and refusing to train properly or is he just keen for his agent to get his name out to see if he can get a move? I doubt he's the only player wanting out but he's the main one the media have picked up on.

I think this is one of those cases that @Parma Ham's gone mouldy talked about a while ago where I think both he and the club are happy to have his name out there. The player would be keen to play at a higher level, the club wouldn't be averse to selling him for the right price as they think he'd fetch a good fee and be replaceable. My sense is he'll likely get his head down if he doesn't get his move but if he does, neither party will see it as a bad outcome.

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5 hours ago, king canary said:

I've seen a few complaints on here about 'how come we have to sell to buy' this summer.

 

On relegation TV income will drop by £45m.   Income from sponsorship & catering will drop by another £8m. So the club needs to save approx £50m just to break-even.

Meanwhile, despite all the bluster about relegation clauses, the wage bill is not likely to drop by more than  £35m.

So, there's a £15m hole to fill, straight away. Without making a single signing or improving a single contract.

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16 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

On relegation TV income will drop by £45m.   Income from sponsorship & catering will drop by another £8m. So the club needs to save approx £50m just to break-even.

Meanwhile, despite all the bluster about relegation clauses, the wage bill is not likely to drop by more than  £35m.

So, there's a £15m hole to fill, straight away. Without making a single signing or improving a single contract.

Would catering income drop due to relegation? I mean it's pennies in the operations on a football club, but I can't see how the catering turnover would be significantly impacted by being in the Championship. It'd get a boost from the four extra home games as they will still be sell outs, so there would probably be an increase in matchday catering revenue by being relegated.

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Would catering income drop due to relegation? I mean it's pennies in the operations on a football club, but I can't see how the catering turnover would be significantly impacted by being in the Championship. It'd get a boost from the four extra home games as they will still be sell outs, so there would probably be an increase in matchday catering revenue by being relegated.

The club took more catering income in 2019/20 (14 home fixtures) than in 2018/19 (26 home fixtures) 

Per the Accounts the club takes £328k for each PL match and £165k for each one in the Champs. That makes about a £2m difference for a full season.

You'll sell far more lucrative Hospitality deals (seat with grub) against PL oppo

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

There are levels of 'wanting out' though. Is he sulking and refusing to train properly or is he just keen for his agent to get his name out to see if he can get a move? I doubt he's the only player wanting out but he's the main one the media have picked up on.

I think this is one of those cases that @Parma Ham's gone mouldy talked about a while ago where I think both he and the club are happy to have his name out there. The player would be keen to play at a higher level, the club wouldn't be averse to selling him for the right price as they think he'd fetch a good fee and be replaceable. My sense is he'll likely get his head down if he doesn't get his move but if he does, neither party will see it as a bad outcome.

I think so too, and it is not as if he will be dropped by Kosovo just because he's playing in the Championship for one season.

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