Isaac Hayden to sign?

[Robert N. LiM 4,241]

15 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The danger of the above is if any of the above start to believe that #1 + #2  + #3 is easily repeatable. 
 

Time withers all of the above. Though few will - or have the incentive to - admit it.

Notice any echoes anyone?

Parma

I think I understand this rather gnomic post. Appreciate the replies. Certainly if Webber and Smith can work well together on recruitment that would be a boon. I think it would be a shame if last summer's failures of recruitment led to some kind of aquatic-infant defenestration. Until we're owned by a squillionaire, cautious, long-term transfer targets are still the right approach for us, imho.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

39 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think I understand this rather gnomic post. Appreciate the replies. Certainly if Webber and Smith can work well together on recruitment that would be a boon. I think it would be a shame if last summer's failures of recruitment led to some kind of aquatic-infant defenestration. Until we're owned by a squillionaire, cautious, long-term transfer targets are still the right approach for us, imho.

I just love that way of saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

[Badger 2,405]

BYG's take on Hayden is quite interesting (stats alert).

https://byag.medium.com/isaac-hayden-f865990fde29

[Big Vince 318]

7 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

I feel for you, Vince. A music-hall comic with a tired old act playing to an audience of one. You need some fresh material.

Well, Delia knows what she has to do.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

9 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Well, Delia knows what she has to do.

Carry on living , rent free, in your head. Muppet.

[Robert N. LiM 4,241]

22 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I just love that way of saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

I reckoned if just one person understood it, it would have been worth it. So thanks.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

1 minute ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I reckoned if just one person understood it, it would have been worth it. So thanks.

I like to use a fake Latin phrase for when things go **** up, and say "rec-tum supra fornicatus mammarium".

Edited June 10, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I reckoned if just one person understood it, it would have been worth it. So thanks.

Or as The Beatles nearly said: "She went out through the bathroom window."

[ged in the onion bag 854]

On 09/06/2022 at 15:47, Badger said:

BYG's take on Hayden is quite interesting (stats alert).

https://byag.medium.com/isaac-hayden-f865990fde29

Well that was a thoroughly depressing read.   Yes we desperately need CDM's so its a start but looks like he'll need replacing on any promotion since he can't play football very well according to this so not capable of much development.  He's another very nice chap!  We still need two more CDM's so hopefully we can get some in to take over in time.  Lets not forget, Newcastle with Hayden were nearly as ropey as us before Howe and the money came in.  

Doesn't bode well for the type of football we'll be playing.    The EPL needs players who are comfortable on the ball, he clearly isn't.   Yet another loan with limited future prospects holding us back from developing a team for the EPL..... come the end of this season, if we get promoted, we'll have an obligation to buy yet another Championship level footballer.     As someone who has supported this process, it seems to be gradually falling apart since the lessons don't appear to be being learnt and Smith seems a manager with short-term approaches that is at odds with our philosophy.  

[ged in the onion bag 854]

On 07/06/2022 at 22:28, hogesar said:

I dont think anyone at the club rates Sorensen as highly as you 😉 I suspect he will just be a backup utility player for a number of positions.

Would like to see Sorensen show some ambition.... needs to demand a transfer and get the hell out of nodge!   

Edited June 13, 2022 by ged in the onion bag

[hogesar 9,618]

7 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Well that was a thoroughly depressing read.   Yes we desperately need CDM's so its a start but looks like he'll need replacing on any promotion since he can't play football very well according to this so not capable of much development.  He's another very nice chap!  We still need two more CDM's so hopefully we can get some in to take over in time.  Lets not forget, Newcastle with Hayden were nearly as ropey as us before Howe and the money came in.  

Doesn't bode well for the type of football we'll be playing.    The EPL needs players who are comfortable on the ball, he clearly isn't.   Yet another loan with limited future prospects holding us back from developing a team for the EPL..... come the end of this season, if we get promoted, we'll have an obligation to buy yet another Championship level footballer.     As someone who has supported this process, it seems to be gradually falling apart since the lessons don't appear to be being learnt and Smith seems a manager with short-term approaches that is at odds with our philosophy.  

Disagree with most of this.

Hayden is 27 so pretty much at his peak so you're right in terms of development. 

But the Premier League is and has always had plenty of defensive midfielders who aren't incisive passers, or fantastic on the ball. The few that are, are at the top 6 clubs bar maybe one or two. That's how rare they are.

As for lessons learnt, I think this is a sign that they are being learnt if anything! We never would have made this signing in the previous windows when it's exactly what the side has needed.

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

To be fair I can't think of many from our current squad that are comfortable in the EPL. That might be where the Americans come in and provide a significant investment to upgrade the squad accordingly if and when we are promoted.

At the moment we are unlikely to attract Premier League standard players at the prices we can afford to pay.

[komakino 272]

16 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

To be fair I can't think of many from our current squad that are comfortable in the EPL. That might be where the Americans come in and provide a significant investment to upgrade the squad accordingly if and when we are promoted.

At the moment we are unlikely to attract Premier League standard players at the prices we can afford to pay.

It isn't just on the pitch where the club is uncomfortable with the EPL. 

Webber has been found out by the footballing world that he doesn't and didn't buy players to keep us up in the EPL. Instead, buying players that may come good in The Championship and kick on and/or sell on for profit. 

If hypothetically Webber was given a budget to buy EPL standard players, could he be trusted? 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Disagree with most of this.

Hayden is 27 so pretty much at his peak so you're right in terms of development. 

But the Premier League is and has always had plenty of defensive midfielders who aren't incisive passers, or fantastic on the ball. The few that are, are at the top 6 clubs bar maybe one or two. That's how rare they are.

As for lessons learnt, I think this is a sign that they are being learnt if anything! We never would have made this signing in the previous windows when it's exactly what the side has needed.

Thats your right to disagree of course but we're on a different page clearly.    This is an underwhelming signing, he is a loan who won't be effective in the EPL if we got there as he wasn't for Newcastle and he will need replacing, just like Gibson and Giannoulis did and eventually were!  Just like McLean and Tettey were and never have been....   The short-termism I believe will keep us in this cycle of promotion and desperate relegation unless we speculate much better.  

When you say lessons are being learned, I said on our previous relegation we needed proper CDM players (athletic, power, pace, who can develop) to replace then McLean and Tettey, that was 3 years ago... None of our midfield that season could find space, receive a pass from defenders, turn forward or progress play and just got smothered.... apart from screening the defence, whats he going to do that is different.   The club didn't learn, they bought in a loan (Skipp) then failed to replace him on promotion.  As for Hayden, on the one hand he's an improvement defensively, but offensively, as the charts show, he's definitely deficient so we are better off giving opportunity to our own (or scouting better potential - thats what they are supposedly employed for) and developing the required quality.   They aren't learning in my view, this approach is very much going over the same ground we did with Gibson and Giannoulis.  

Learning isn't getting in a CDM or 3, they've known we needed them since we left Anfield in August 2019, just failed miserably to address it.      Learning is not following the same approaches again and again.  Don't loan players especially young inexperienced ones, don't develop other teams players, don't sign the likes of Hugill and Sargent who can't do a job for us, sign youngsters to develop in the Championship, not in the EPL, sign experience in the EPL if you have too, don't sell your best players until you've identified replacements, otherwise keep them, don't sign Championship quality for a Championship campaign unless they have clear development value, (age, technical ability), don't verbally 'expect to lose games', tell the EPL the games off - don't ask them politely (works for everyone else), don't be so 'nice', remember to park the bus against the best teams and not try to pass out from the back, don't pick the same 11 every week in the championship preventing others getting developed (or at least make earlier substitutions to affect games, spread that experience) so we can assemble a bigger more experienced squad on our budget. 

All the signals so far are leading to the same outcomes.... we just won't be good enough if we go up next season.   

 

[repman 634]

7 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Thats your right to disagree of course but we're on a different page clearly.    This is an underwhelming signing, he is a loan who won't be effective in the EPL if we got there as he wasn't for Newcastle and he will need replacing, just like Gibson and Giannoulis did and eventually were!  Just like McLean and Tettey were and never have been....   The short-termism I believe will keep us in this cycle of promotion and desperate relegation unless we speculate much better.  

When you say lessons are being learned, I said on our previous relegation we needed proper CDM players (athletic, power, pace, who can develop) to replace then McLean and Tettey, that was 3 years ago... None of our midfield that season could find space, receive a pass from defenders, turn forward or progress play and just got smothered.... apart from screening the defence, whats he going to do that is different.   The club didn't learn, they bought in a loan (Skipp) then failed to replace him on promotion.  As for Hayden, on the one hand he's an improvement defensively, but offensively, as the charts show, he's definitely deficient so we are better off giving opportunity to our own (or scouting better potential - thats what they are supposedly employed for) and developing the required quality.   They aren't learning in my view, this approach is very much going over the same ground we did with Gibson and Giannoulis.  

Learning isn't getting in a CDM or 3, they've known we needed them since we left Anfield in August 2019, just failed miserably to address it.      Learning is not following the same approaches again and again.  Don't loan players especially young inexperienced ones, don't develop other teams players, don't sign the likes of Hugill and Sargent who can't do a job for us, sign youngsters to develop in the Championship, not in the EPL, sign experience in the EPL if you have too, don't sell your best players until you've identified replacements, otherwise keep them, don't sign Championship quality for a Championship campaign unless they have clear development value, (age, technical ability), don't verbally 'expect to lose games', tell the EPL the games off - don't ask them politely (works for everyone else), don't be so 'nice', remember to park the bus against the best teams and not try to pass out from the back, don't pick the same 11 every week in the championship preventing others getting developed (or at least make earlier substitutions to affect games, spread that experience) so we can assemble a bigger more experienced squad on our budget. 

All the signals so far are leading to the same outcomes.... we just won't be good enough if we go up next season.   

 

I agree with a lot you've said here but I think it's being slightly harsh on Hayden. He would come into our team immediately, this is better than the signing of Hugill for example who was always going to be behind Pukki in the pecking order. He was good enough for Newcastle the whole time they've been back in the PL, bar the last 6 months where he got injured and lost his place to a £40 million pound player. Also, the criticism of his passing stats are fair, he's not Sergio Busquets, but he has been playing under Steve Bruce so he won't have great numbers in that regard.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

At the moment we are unlikely to attract Premier League standard players at the prices we can afford to pay.

Tend to agree with you, I thought the idea behind our approach was in the main to develop or scout talent to develop and to build a squad good enough over time..... sadly, we keep failing with signings in both ability and position.    CDM's where necessary when we got relegated in 2020.   Instead we developed a lad for Spurs, failed to get any youngsters with those skill sets in and left Sorensen in the background.    Then followed those errors with a disastrous summer window.     We are in the same position as 2 years ago.   Hayden is short-term, surely our approach has to be longer-term especially without scouts operating at 'genius' level.  

... am adding to this, Smith just doesn't seem a manager who will develop youngsters like our approach requires, its more about immediate results, hope I am wrong but there's little evidence to suggest it.  He'll be desperate for promotion at all costs, that won't work as we will just be crap again.  

Edited June 13, 2022 by ged in the onion bag

[ged in the onion bag 854]

5 minutes ago, repman said:

I agree with a lot you've said here but I think it's being slightly harsh on Hayden. He would come into our team immediately, this is better than the signing of Hugill for example who was always going to be behind Pukki in the pecking order. He was good enough for Newcastle the whole time they've been back in the PL, bar the last 6 months where he got injured and lost his place to a £40 million pound player. Also, the criticism of his passing stats are fair, he's not Sergio Busquets, but he has been playing under Steve Bruce so he won't have great numbers in that regard.

I don't disagree with you in terms of his immediate impact but whereas Hugill was literally 100% a wrong signing, Hayden has to be at least 50%.   They seem good kids and its not their fault we want to sign them.   

[hogesar 9,618]

On 13/06/2022 at 15:26, ged in the onion bag said:

Thats your right to disagree of course but we're on a different page clearly.    This is an underwhelming signing, he is a loan who won't be effective in the EPL if we got there as he wasn't for Newcastle and he will need replacing, just like Gibson and Giannoulis did and eventually were!  Just like McLean and Tettey were and never have been....   The short-termism I believe will keep us in this cycle of promotion and desperate relegation unless we speculate much better.  

When you say lessons are being learned, I said on our previous relegation we needed proper CDM players (athletic, power, pace, who can develop) to replace then McLean and Tettey, that was 3 years ago... None of our midfield that season could find space, receive a pass from defenders, turn forward or progress play and just got smothered.... apart from screening the defence, whats he going to do that is different.   The club didn't learn, they bought in a loan (Skipp) then failed to replace him on promotion.  As for Hayden, on the one hand he's an improvement defensively, but offensively, as the charts show, he's definitely deficient so we are better off giving opportunity to our own (or scouting better potential - thats what they are supposedly employed for) and developing the required quality.   They aren't learning in my view, this approach is very much going over the same ground we did with Gibson and Giannoulis.  

Learning isn't getting in a CDM or 3, they've known we needed them since we left Anfield in August 2019, just failed miserably to address it.      Learning is not following the same approaches again and again.  Don't loan players especially young inexperienced ones, don't develop other teams players, don't sign the likes of Hugill and Sargent who can't do a job for us, sign youngsters to develop in the Championship, not in the EPL, sign experience in the EPL if you have too, don't sell your best players until you've identified replacements, otherwise keep them, don't sign Championship quality for a Championship campaign unless they have clear development value, (age, technical ability), don't verbally 'expect to lose games', tell the EPL the games off - don't ask them politely (works for everyone else), don't be so 'nice', remember to park the bus against the best teams and not try to pass out from the back, don't pick the same 11 every week in the championship preventing others getting developed (or at least make earlier substitutions to affect games, spread that experience) so we can assemble a bigger more experienced squad on our budget. 

All the signals so far are leading to the same outcomes.... we just won't be good enough if we go up next season.   

 

Sorry, I never acknowledged your reply. 

I think you're getting this signing wrong, it shows a lesson learnt and goes completely against what you're saying! Hayden isn't a short-term, he's very much designed to be a long-term (3 years at least) hence buying him at his peak.

He joined Newcastle in 2016, He was then part of keeping them in the Prem for 5 seasons. That's exactly what we want him to repeat. The difference? Well, he should be at his peak now, and could offer more to us than he did in his first few seasons for Newcastle.

[Mengo 821]

16 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Sorry, I never acknowledged your reply. 

I think you're getting this signing wrong, it shows a lesson learnt and goes completely against what you're saying! Hayden isn't a short-term, he's very much designed to be a long-term (3 years at least) hence buying him at his peak.

He joined Newcastle in 2016, He was then part of keeping them in the Prem for 5 seasons. That's exactly what we want him to repeat. The difference? Well, he should be at his peak now, and could offer more to us than he did in his first few seasons for Newcastle.

👍 Hayden for me is a very good signing at this time and for sure in the next premier campaign. Excellent signing for the here and now and future.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Sorry, I never acknowledged your reply. 

I think you're getting this signing wrong, it shows a lesson learnt and goes completely against what you're saying! Hayden isn't a short-term, he's very much designed to be a long-term (3 years at least) hence buying him at his peak.

He joined Newcastle in 2016, He was then part of keeping them in the Prem for 5 seasons. That's exactly what we want him to repeat. The difference? Well, he should be at his peak now, and could offer more to us than he did in his first few seasons for Newcastle.

In your long-term analogy of course, you assume we are getting promoted next season.  If we don't, he's not signing and we've wasted a year playing someone else's player again at the expense of developing our own CDM's which seems at odds with the spirit of our system.    That to me is a big gamble and not one that worked with Skipp, (thus lesson not learned) unless you're happy taking the EPL money alongside the embarrassment that just occurred.   Personally, I would have preferred to stay in the Championship last season than endure that pain.

I fully understand his value to us at the moment, we need 3 CDM's and he provides those necessary skills to protect the defence (although they shouldn't need as much protection in the Championship) so I can applaud that and see that he's better than what we have defensively.    Added to that he may enable a change in approach with full-backs being able to get forward with more freedom.   But he is worse offensively based on his stats.   Havent taken much notice of him before and based on what he brings would rather we gave Sorensen some proper game time, he deserves it.  

I explained the lessons we need to learn which are more about honing our structures and ultimately taking this self-funding project to a next level with hindsight.   The lack of a defensive midfielder this past 4 seasons was a fundamental problem we all knew of before the 19 / 20 season.   Therefore, getting one isn't learning lessons, it just finally signing someone with the right skill sets we knew we needed.   I am of course assuming all fans could see that... (some can't but I know you're more savvy), of course, if the club couldn't then it would be a lesson to be learnt but that would raise even more worrying questions.

Hayden was part of keeping Newcastle in the league, in which generally they have struggled but of course during that period they invested significant millions on creative players (Almiron / Wilson / San Maximin / Willock kept them up last year / Shelvey and plenty others, even Murphy off us represents a quality contributing sub) to support that process, something we can't do.  He's clearly not a great footballer at that level as his stats suggest so we must look to improve that position still.     This is like the Skipp signing, a huge gamble in which we may not get promoted but may waste a valuable season when we could develop our own.    

I am of the view we can't possibly create a competitive EPL team in one season however, so I would prefer us to stop this nonsense and concentrate on development for the future.   Can you honestly see us creating a good enough team and Hayden having the kind of midfield influence in the EPL to make us competitive by 2023?  Just don't see it without money and that also involves ripping the heart and soul out of the team.    We have to get back to developing our own, creating a team that has quality, guile, pace, strength and an underlying heart!    We have the foundations for that.

I'd use him to get us back to controlling games and then work to bring in similar players who can be better.    

Edited June 16, 2022 by ged in the onion bag

[Danke bitte 965]

6 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Just don't see it without money and that also involves ripping the heart and soul out of the team

One of my hopes is that the short fall we seem to have with paying wages (see Ajer) is solved with this potential US investment. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not assuming sweeping transfer windows but rather than us failing to land a target and stuttering (going down the loan route aka Normann) we can afford the odd player that was out of grasp before. I’d rather see fewer heads bought in scattered with the youth from our conveyor belt. 

That’s me being overly positive though.

I’m currently unsure as to who is being tipped for the next steps bar Springett, Rowe and Gibbs as I have no idea as to Smith’s approach to academy. 

 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

2 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

One of my hopes is that the short fall we seem to have with paying wages (see Ajer) is solved with this potential US investment. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not assuming sweeping transfer windows but rather than us failing to land a target and stuttering (going down the loan route aka Normann) we can afford the odd player that was out of grasp before. I’d rather see fewer heads bought in scattered with the youth from our conveyor belt. 

That’s me being overly positive though.

I’m currently unsure as to who is being tipped for the next steps bar Springett, Rowe and Gibbs as I have no idea as to Smith’s approach to academy. 

 

Me too, that would be an ideal approach even without the extra money.... it needs a brave and patient manager prepared to give opportunity and as good a chap as he is, I just don't get the impression Smith is that type.   Probably needs our scouts to step up too!