Our Farke Moment

[Mellow Yellow 18]

A Norwich fan responded to a post when Farke was sacked, essentially stating that it was City's Mick McCarthy moment (referring to when MM was sacked by Ipswich; meant to result in an improvement, but resulted in free fall from thereon). I agreed 100% then and I still do. Since we fired Farke we have lost our football identity on the pitch and our connection/empathy with the manager and his style of football. Barring some remarkable recruitment, and a change of footballing philosophy, it seems we will be an average championship side at best, playing average football. Even if we had gone down under Farke (we may not have done) it would have been playing Farkeball, with much admiration of our footballing philosophy, rather than the dross and humiliation we have suffered since he left. Pep said he liked watching City under Farke but there is no way he does now under Smith and Co. I have nothing against them personally, it was the boards mistake recruiting them, but there just does not seem to be any connection at all with the fans. I actually value our owners, I have met Delia and she is a diamond, but I wish she would acknowledge it, learn from it and try to entice Farke back.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,423]

27 minutes ago, Mellow Yellow said:

A Norwich fan responded to a post when Farke was sacked, essentially stating that it was City's Mick McCarthy moment (referring to when MM was sacked by Ipswich; meant to result in an improvement, but resulted in free fall from thereon). I agreed 100% then and I still do. Since we fired Farke we have lost our football identity on the pitch and our connection/empathy with the manager and his style of football. Barring some remarkable recruitment, and a change of footballing philosophy, it seems we will be an average championship side at best, playing average football. Even if we had gone down under Farke (we may not have done) it would have been playing Farkeball, with much admiration of our footballing philosophy, rather than the dross and humiliation we have suffered since he left. Pep said he liked watching City under Farke but there is no way he does now under Smith and Co. I have nothing against them personally, it was the boards mistake recruiting them, but there just does not seem to be any connection at all with the fans. I actually value our owners, I have met Delia and she is a diamond, but I wish she would acknowledge it, learn from it and try to entice Farke back.

That would be the same Farke that had the worst EPL record in history? No thanks. He may have been great with the crowd but all that managed to do at this level was take heat off the ownership.

[lake district canary 4,830]

I agree with all that but I think it is too late. Damage is done and it's difficult to go back once you have left.

I am so disappointed with the way it finished - it just seemed wrong then and it seems wrong now. I know there are those people who wanted him gone - but we threw him away just as he was getting to grips with this season, the terrible start, then the desperate games after that to try and eek out a point here and there - and  then getting that all important first win, which was a huge moment in the season.....except that any positivity was taken away by the actions of Webber within minutes of that moment.

I don't think I've ever been so shocked at anything to do with our club as that hour after the Brentford match. It was ludicrous - and proved so when it was clear no-one was lined up to take it on. Imo Webber lost his nerve and gave in to the "experts" who pontificated and kept in repeating about his record - ignoring the circumstances of it all.  He gave in to the players who were unhappy about Todd and Gilmour being left out, even though Farke was pretty much right about them. What should have happened is that he should have supported Farke totally - and he should have followed his own motto - "ignore the noise".  

We had something good going with Farke - and he had just weeks before been given a four year contract! Talk about barmy about turns. So we were struggling - well it wasn't rocket science to guess we would still be struggling with someone else, especially someone who would want us to play differently.  Farkeball had it's limitations with the players we had, but on it's day, it was a joy to watch. Smithball in the championship will be all the more functional and less pure - it might even get us promoted again - but we were robbed of someone who had the highest of ideals of how to play football, how to conduct yourself in a group and how to engage with the fans. Smith has a lot to live up to next season....and if he stays, so has Webber.

Edited May 23, 2022 by lake district canary

[lake district canary 4,830]

3 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

That would be the same Farke that had the worst EPL record in history? No thanks. He may have been great with the crowd but all that managed to do at this level was take heat off the ownership.

He had the worst set of circumstances ever too, in both seasons. Why do people ignore that? 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,261]

We were playing blinding football at the start of this year under Farke. Watching Gibson and Hanley knock it between each other before we then inevitably gave it away in midfield was thrilling as was how exciting it was the watch the opposition run through our team unchallenged every match, the refusal to put any challenges in, the stand off defending, the huge gaps between our midfield and defense all while creating very few chances and scoring no goals. It was scintillating stuff.  Some sections of our support seriously over rate Farke. It was nice to watch when we were playing in a poor league with a few players who were far too good for that level, but the playing style completely fell apart when we had to adjust to facing bigger, stronger faster and more skillful teams. You're all going to have to accept that there is no reality where we can both survive and play passing football

[Mello Yello 2,572]

No mural on a pub wall for Deano.....Although maybe he may feature on a brick?.....

[Petriix 3,219]

14 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

We were playing blinding football at the start of this year under Farke. Watching Gibson and Hanley knock it between each other before we then inevitably gave it away in midfield was thrilling as was how exciting it was the watch the opposition run through our team unchallenged every match, the refusal to put any challenges in, the stand off defending, the huge gaps between our midfield and defense all while creating very few chances and scoring no goals. It was scintillating stuff.  Some sections of our support seriously over rate Farke. It was nice to watch when we were playing in a poor league with a few players who were far too good for that level, but the playing style completely fell apart when we had to adjust to facing bigger, stronger faster and more skillful teams. You're all going to have to accept that there is no reality where we can both survive and play passing football

The playing style fell apart when we were attempting to accommodate Billy Gilmour in a 4-3-3. I don't see how you can continue to blame the manager when Dean smith has subsequently come in and gained 17 points from 27 games. Webber has destroyed our squad at enormous expense.

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

28 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

No mural on a pub wall for Deano.....Although maybe he may feature on a brick?.....

Or a mug. 

[Mello Yello 2,572]

3 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Or a mug. 

We are probably all individually are.....to the club hierarchy....

[Naturalcynic 817]

53 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

He had the worst set of circumstances ever too, in both seasons. Why do people ignore that? 

Yes, we alone were affected by Covid, some players being injured and having to play all the other teams twice in a season.

[Mason 47 1,924]

Just to help me out, as I'm hearing this a lot the past couple of days-

When people say we suffered this catastrophic loss of identity when Farke went, what exactly went on before May 2017? Were we just floating about in the ether for 115 years before DF dragged us kicking and screaming into the light?

[Coneys Knee 1,049]

What annoys me most is that people (a minority, granted) judge Farke on post lockdown premier league and first ten games of this premier league season.

They conveniently seem to forget two championship titles - an achievement that is not easy in the slightest, and they forget the pre lockdown premier league performance. Yes, I did just say that! Because, whilst I know we were still at the wrong end of the table, there were games, more than some would care to remember actually, where we were absolutely awesome but failed to get the points. wolves at home springs to mind. It wasn’t all dire in that first Farke premier league season. Anybody who thinks it was has a very selective memory. 
 

Yes it’s over with Farke, I wish it wasn’t, but it is, and we have to look forward of course. Maybe it was the right time, maybe it wasn’t, we’ll never know, but for goodness sake give the guy the respect he deserves for both his on the pitch achievements and his off the pitch conduct.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Coneys Knee

[lake district canary 4,830]

25 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

He had the worst set of circumstances ever too, in both seasons. Why do people ignore that? 

Yes, we alone were affected by Covid, some players being injured and having to play all the other teams twice in a season.

It's not so hard to understand. To achieve what we wanted, given we had much less resources than the rest of the PL clubs - and to stay in the PL, we would need everything going for us.  In fact we got the opposite. Horrendous injury list....but even then we were battling and sticking in there, with picking up a few points up to that win over Leicester...and then the lockdown and all wind taken out of our sails, all momentum lost, any advantage from the previous season's success gone - and no surprise we could not get going again. 

This season, again, circumstances against us. Skipp and Buendia gone - not Farke's fault - entailing rebuilding a side - still covid problems while doing that, Normann and Kabak only able to join after season has started. A horrendous fixture list. Injuries. In other words we were trying to build a new side under the most difficult of conditions in the richest league in the world, with the least resources. Crazy to think that success would happen straight away.  None of that was Farke's fault. 

[chicken 3,086]

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

He had the worst set of circumstances ever too, in both seasons. Why do people ignore that? 

As much as I like Farke, that's just not true is it, especially this season. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

Yes, we alone were affected by Covid, some players being injured and having to play all the other teams twice in a season.

🤣🤣🤣

[Worthy Nigelton 1,301]

Farke was one of the best managers we have ever had. Anyone who can't see that or doesn't want to is a bit weird.

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

When I have heard Dean smith talk about how he wanted to play with a high press and aggressiveness I actually like that the trouble is that’s how he wants to play but doesn’t set his side out to do it. If he actually coached these lot to do it I’d be happy but to say that’s how you want to play and just sit deep all game every game side side back hoof is not my cup of tea. 

[lake district canary 4,830]

12 minutes ago, chicken said:

As much as I like Farke, that's just not true is it, especially this season. 

If you compare what we were trying to do with any other club this season, it is quite clear we were up against it. Losing two key players, the covid interupted pre-season, the way the fixtures fell at the start, only getting two supposedly key players after the season started. Trying to get all that to gel made it as difficult a start to the season you could imagine - and once the rot set in, it was hard to break out of it. Tough, tough circumstances. 

[chicken 3,086]

1 hour ago, Mason 47 said:

Just to help me out, as I'm hearing this a lot the past couple of days-

When people say we suffered this catastrophic loss of identity when Farke went, what exactly went on before May 2017? Were we just floating about in the ether for 115 years before DF dragged us kicking and screaming into the light?

I see both sides and think the compromise is the answer.

I don't think people felt we had no "identity" before Farke, I think the loss they are talking about is the style, personality and connection with the players and Farke in his time at the club. It's fair to say it had been some time since the majority of fans felt that sort of connection. Dare I say since Lambert was manager perhaps?

I think when they talk of the loss of that, they are not suggesting it is the only loss of that type that the club has experienced. I think relegation when Worthington was the manager was the same, as was relegation from the premier league after Chase sought to sell players and invest it in land that would take 15-20yrs to "mature".

The thing I would argue is that as much as Farke was a top man and part of what had been four years of solid progress and the establishment of what felt like an enduring identity, what he couldn't muster, were consistent performances from an increasingly more expensive set of players. He said through much of his time here that he often watched videos of the players being scouted and would have input on the transfer strategy. This is best highlighted by Lees-Melou being a player he had very much wanted from the list of players shortlisted.

Anyway, I digress. At the point that Farke was sacked, it was more or less a simple stick or twist. Some people have said that Webber should have gone - but it wouldn't have changed anything. If you need to make a decision that results in change, then there is only really one choice. The two choices are 1) Do nothing, persevere and hope that the results can turn and become more favourable, 2) Sack the head coach and hope that you can identify a coach who can come in and turn the fortunes around of the club.

We had one season and ten games of premier league football under Farke and two title winning seasons and a season of transition which he handled incredibly well. Is he good enough to be a top tier manager in Europe? Yes. But I feel he'd need to be with a club in a league where his preferred approaches are more likely to work. 

And it has to be said, his preferred method also changed this season. The change in style etc didn't happen suddenly under Smith when he arrived, but Farke at the start of the season and during the incredibly disturbed pre season we had.

Smith may not have been able to implement his style yet, after all, it took Farke a season to have us playing the way he wanted. And many bemoaned us that first season, and Farke, for not being up to it, and were unable to see what Farke was trying to do.

Lastly, it's hard to argue the decision when Smith's results on the pitch, whilst not as good on the eye perhaps, have been better than Farke's. And what then is the answer? 

[chicken 3,086]

13 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

If you compare what we were trying to do with any other club this season, it is quite clear we were up against it. Losing two key players, the covid interupted pre-season, the way the fixtures fell at the start, only getting two supposedly key players after the season started. Trying to get all that to gel made it as difficult a start to the season you could imagine - and once the rot set in, it was hard to break out of it. Tough, tough circumstances. 

Yes, so stick or twist scenario where change was desperately needed. Twist the only real option. Especially when Farke couldn't get arguably our third best attacking option prior to this season, to fire at all in Cantwell.

Though it is still very different to being in the worst set of circumstances. We had money to spend, many didn't, irrespective of whether we lost two key players or not. Villa will argue the loss of Grealish changed the entire way they played, for example.

Burnley managed the same issues with covid during the season, and very nearly managed them to their advantage - albeit with a more experienced premier league squad.

I think the circumstances are valid reasons and part of the accurate assessment of this season, but I would also argue that Farke changing our well versed, and well drilled 4-2-3-1 to a 4-3-3 also cost us momentum early season.

Whilst I understand it was a trying set of circumstances, the team were heading for a lower points tally than last time. How long do you give someone to turn it around, both in terms of the current incumbent and the person chosen to fill their boots?

Stick or twist? Carry on and either hope that it turns around or be relegated with some familiarity? Change in the hope that change is the catalyst to an uptick in results?

In fairness, up until the covid bout I think it's fair to say Smith was getting more out of our team. He even managed to reinvent them with Idah coming in up front alongside Pukki to pull us out of a dip. Injuries to Rashica, Idah and Sargent impacted for certain.

Edited May 23, 2022 by chicken

[sgncfc 1,330]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I agree with all that but I think it is too late. Damage is done and it's difficult to go back once you have left.

I am so disappointed with the way it finished - it just seemed wrong then and it seems wrong now. I know there are those people who wanted him gone - but we threw him away just as he was getting to grips with this season, the terrible start, then the desperate games after that to try and eek out a point here and there - and  then getting that all important first win, which was a huge moment in the season.....except that any positivity was taken away by the actions of Webber within minutes of that moment.

I don't think I've ever been so shocked at anything to do with our club as that hour after the Brentford match. It was ludicrous - and proved so when it was clear no-one was lined up to take it on. Imo Webber lost his nerve and gave in to the "experts" who pontificated and kept in repeating about his record - ignoring the circumstances of it all.  He gave in to the players who were unhappy about Todd and Gilmour being left out, even though Farke was pretty much right about them. What should have happened is that he should have supported Farke totally - and he should have followed his own motto - "ignore the noise".  

We had something good going with Farke - and he had just weeks before been given a four year contract! Talk about barmy about turns. So we were struggling - well it wasn't rocket science to guess we would still be struggling with someone else, especially someone who would want us to play differently.  Farkeball had it's limitations with the players we had, but on it's day, it was a joy to watch. Smithball in the championship will be all the more functional and less pure - it might even get us promoted again - but we were robbed of someone who had the highest of ideals of how to play football, how to conduct yourself in a group and how to engage with the fans. Smith has a lot to live up to next season....and if he stays, so has Webber.

This is a really good post. I can't disagree with any of it. Webber lost his bottle - the result of the Brentford game should have given him pause but didn't. Can you imagine that dressing room going from elation and fist pumping determination to depression and disbelief? An astonishing mis-reading of a situation - and it seems he continues to mis-read events.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,138]

3 hours ago, Mellow Yellow said:

A Norwich fan responded to a post when Farke was sacked, essentially stating that it was City's Mick McCarthy moment (referring to when MM was sacked by Ipswich; meant to result in an improvement, but resulted in free fall from thereon). I agreed 100% then and I still do. Since we fired Farke we have lost our football identity on the pitch and our connection/empathy with the manager and his style of football. Barring some remarkable recruitment, and a change of footballing philosophy, it seems we will be an average championship side at best, playing average football. Even if we had gone down under Farke (we may not have done) it would have been playing Farkeball, with much admiration of our footballing philosophy, rather than the dross and humiliation we have suffered since he left. Pep said he liked watching City under Farke but there is no way he does now under Smith and Co. I have nothing against them personally, it was the boards mistake recruiting them, but there just does not seem to be any connection at all with the fans. I actually value our owners, I have met Delia and she is a diamond, but I wish she would acknowledge it, learn from it and try to entice Farke back.

We'd already lost our identity to a large extent before Farke left due to the overall inferiority of our squad against the players they were going up against. 

DS is a competent manager and we have seen no freefall under his tenure since we were in a shocking position in the first place. 

As for 'connection', Farke had no connection either until he started winning, which took some time. 

That said, I like Farke, and if Webber does up sticks then Farke would be an appealing replacement. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[chicken 3,086]

22 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

This is a really good post. I can't disagree with any of it. Webber lost his bottle - the result of the Brentford game should have given him pause but didn't. Can you imagine that dressing room going from elation and fist pumping determination to depression and disbelief? An astonishing mis-reading of a situation - and it seems he continues to mis-read events.

We'd drawn two games and won one game under Farke, the win being his last game, the two draws being against Burnley and Brighton with two games separating them and the Brentford win. One of those games being the 7-0 loss against Chelsea after which many voices could be heard asking for Farke to go.

If the dressing room was so elated and full of fist pumping, why did they match their points tally for the first 11 games under Farke, in the first three games under Smith? We'd also scored 6 gales in 11 games. Again, we hit half as many in Smith's first three games. I'm not sure you can say that it took the wind out of our sails, especially when there was two weeks from Farke's last game and Smith's first.

We then also had a good period of a month, from Jan 9th to Feb 9th under Smith where we played 6 games, losing one, drawing one and winning the remaining four, one of which was in the FA Cup. IMHO, that's not a fluke, and it also suggests that the squad arguably had enough quality but needed all of it's best parts firing on all cylinders. 

We never looked like going on a run of that type under Farke. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by chicken