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11 hours ago, FenwayFrank said:

Just because Gueye won’t wear the shirt it doesn’t mean he supports people being thrown in jail does it ? It is possible to disagree with what someone does without hating them you know

Exactly this. It is entirely possible to be considerate and respectful to gay people without wanting to celebrate lgbt ideology. I would come into this category. I would never want gay people to be treated badly, I would respect their right to life their lives as they choose. But I don’t want my children celebrating lgbt months and being taught to applaud as if there is something virtuous in being gay. How warped is our society when it never celebrates marriage and family life in the curriculum but gives not one but two months to rainbow causes. It’s just odd when you really think about it. It’s all gone too far- pushing people away from respect and tolerance into enforcement to celebrate. That is not freedom it is liberal fascism. No Muslim should be made to wear rainbow shirts just as no gay man should be made to wear Muslim symbols. 

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1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Exactly this. It is entirely possible to be considerate and respectful to gay people without wanting to celebrate lgbt ideology. I would come into this category. I would never want gay people to be treated badly, I would respect their right to life their lives as they choose. But I don’t want my children celebrating lgbt months and being taught to applaud as if there is something virtuous in being gay. How warped is our society when it never celebrates marriage and family life in the curriculum but gives not one but two months to rainbow causes. It’s just odd when you really think about it. It’s all gone too far- pushing people away from respect and tolerance into enforcement to celebrate. That is not freedom it is liberal fascism. No Muslim should be made to wear rainbow shirts just as no gay man should be made to wear Muslim symbols. 

Precisely.  But from the oprobrium heaped on christianity on this thread alone, I suspect there'd have been considerably more outrage if he'd been a Christian, particularly as at least 3 Premier League players gave overt support to his actions.  But the whole story seems to be receiving very little coverage in the media.  Society definitely has double standards.

Edited by Naturalcynic

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52 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Second half is interesting, but it also shows why many fans are also sceptical about the backgrounds of some of the wealthiest owners, and plenty of fans (as well as international players) have registered unease if not downright disdain about the World Cup being held in Qatar for a litany of reasons ranging from the practical (the heat), to the potential bribery in getting the award, to the working conditions many were essentially enslaved in when building the stadia, to the rather Stone Age views on homosexuality in many Middle Eastern states incl. Qatar along with their associated human rights records.

Certainly remember the Norwegian national team making their stance clear in protest, as did the Germans and the Dutch. 

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On 18/05/2022 at 14:58, Naturalcynic said:

Having lived in an Islamic country for a few years I’m very aware of the intolerance of homosexuality, sex outside marriage, abortion, and any religion other than Islam.

Basically the same intolerance that Christianity has from the Old Testament towards these things. Religions are strange when the values they promote change according to what becomes untenable to defend against. I look forward to the new new New Testament where the religion just says ‘try and be nice to people and don’t do things which stop others from having a nice time too’. 

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On 18/05/2022 at 20:14, Naturalcynic said:

I’m not aware that any Islamophobia has been shown on this thread, but there’s certainly been an awful lot of Christianophobia on display.

I’m not scared of Christians. I would like a Christian to give me any kind of logical reason to at least sympathise with their beliefs. All the good things about Christianity are just good things in general that non religious people tend to do as a logical and sociable species trying to coexist. However, there are such obviously abhorrent aspects of ALL religions that get very easily called out by the same non religious members of society that completely discredit their need to exist. I’m truth, I can live my life like a good citizen, ignore all the horrible rubbish spouted by religion and if I’m wrong and I die and see those pearly gates I’ll just say ‘sorry - you probably should’ve done a bit more to convince me pal, but now I can see you sitting on your cloud I believe, you forgive and bob’s your uncle’. 

And the claims about priests being no worse proportionally than any other professions around sex crimes are just utter fantasy. Then I suppose if you’re prone to believing stuff you can’t prove it makes a lot of sense 😂

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15 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Exactly this. It is entirely possible to be considerate and respectful to gay people without wanting to celebrate lgbt ideology. I would come into this category. I would never want gay people to be treated badly, I would respect their right to life their lives as they choose. But I don’t want my children celebrating lgbt months and being taught to applaud as if there is something virtuous in being gay. How warped is our society when it never celebrates marriage and family life in the curriculum but gives not one but two months to rainbow causes. It’s just odd when you really think about it. It’s all gone too far- pushing people away from respect and tolerance into enforcement to celebrate. That is not freedom it is liberal fascism. No Muslim should be made to wear rainbow shirts just as no gay man should be made to wear Muslim symbols. 

I’m often worried about how much abuse and discrimination heterosexual married white couples get in the playground 😂😂😂😂
Why on earth would you not allow your children to celebrate diversity? No children are forced to applaud, but children that say openly Gay marriage is wrong are homophobic and they only say this because their homophobic parents say it. Luckily in my school when we have had a parent complain about the school teaching lgbtq+ (As well as heterosexual relationships btw), we tell them ‘thanks for your concern, but we are teaching it to them but will support your application to another school’. We also happily re-educate pupils that openly discriminate. We don’t bash any religion, we do not however allow religion to bash sections of society under the veil of ‘I’m not homophobic but….’ 
I’m glad to live in statistically the least religious city in the country and also one of the friendliest. I’m also glad that the overwhelming majority of our pupils are happy to celebrate all levels of diversity with openness and respect. I have major issues with many religions and I don’t believe you can cover up the lack of inclusivity and often downright discriminatory aspects of them just because some bits are quite nice too. Religion doesn’t allow for evolution of opinion as education around things develops and thus it stagnates and divides as people clamour to justify this thing they believed in so much that it’s hard to accept they’ve been getting it wrong all these years. To be religious is to be close minded. Thank goodness congregations and practicing followers are declining. Just those uncomfortable with not knowing the origins of everything that cling on to a belief system that answers it all, no matter how unfeasibly, so they can sleep soundly at night. 
 

But as always. I am happy to be proven wrong once done evidence comes my way. 

I’ll wait 

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I will add that although the school don’t bash religion, in my own time and as not to bias children with my own agenda, I very much do call it out. 

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6 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

I will add that although the school don’t bash religion, in my own time and as not to bias children with my own agenda, I very much do call it out. 

That’s fine, so long as you “call out” Islam (central to this particular thread) with the same vehemence you do Christianity, because many in society seem very reluctant to do so.  As an agnostic bordering on atheist I have no particular axe to grind regarding criticism of religions provided there’s a level playing field when it comes to denunciation.

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7 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

Basically the same intolerance that Christianity has from the Old Testament towards these things. Religions are strange when the values they promote change according to what becomes untenable to defend against. I look forward to the new new New Testament where the religion just says ‘try and be nice to people and don’t do things which stop others from having a nice time too’. 

This thread is about an Islamic footballer, not a Christian, so why are you so obsessed with criticising Christianity?

Edited by Naturalcynic

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1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

This thread is about an Islamic footballer, not a Christian, so why are you so obsessed with criticising Christianity?

I’m responding to other posters bringing up Christianity. As an agnostic why are you so keen to defend it whilst repeatedly reminding everyone having a discussion about theology in general that the OP is about Islam? I smell an islamaphobe. 

Forum discussions evolve and digress. Read a handful of others and you’ll see this. That is assuming the concept of evolution doesn’t also cause confusion 

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4 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I’m responding to other posters bringing up Christianity. As an agnostic why are you so keen to defend it whilst repeatedly reminding everyone having a discussion about theology in general that the OP is about Islam? I smell an islamaphobe. 

Forum discussions evolve and digress. Read a handful of others and you’ll see this. That is assuming the concept of evolution doesn’t also cause confusion 

You can smell what you want sunshine, but a quick scan of this thread shows a wealth of criticism of Christianity and next to none about Islam.  If pointing that out makes me an Islamophobe then that again shows the unconscious (or conscious) bias of many in society, seemingly including you.

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Just now, Naturalcynic said:

You can smell what you want sunshine, but a quick scan of this thread shows a wealth of criticism of Christianity and next to none about Islam.  If pointing that out makes me an Islamophobe then that again shows the unconscious (or conscious) bias of many in society, seemingly including you.

To be clear. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Etc. Have no evidence to support their existence and contain horrendous views that impact negatively on human rights. 

That clear enough for you ‘sunshine’? 

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Just now, SwearyCanary said:

To be clear. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Etc. Have no evidence to support their existence and contain horrendous views that impact negatively on human rights. 

That clear enough for you ‘sunshine’? 

That’s a bit more balanced, yes.  And as you’re now doing the right thing please withdraw your unjustified allegation regarding Islamophobia. Thank you.

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11 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

That’s a bit more balanced, yes.  And as you’re now doing the right thing please withdraw your unjustified allegation regarding Islamophobia. Thank you.

I withdraw it. I will however use your reference to me as ‘sunshine’ and ‘now you’re doing the right thing’ as strong justification that I believe you to be a condescending  t*** though. 

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On 19/05/2022 at 07:49, Dean Coneys boots said:

Exactly this. It is entirely possible to be considerate and respectful to gay people without wanting to celebrate lgbt ideology. I would come into this category. I would never want gay people to be treated badly, I would respect their right to life their lives as they choose. But I don’t want my children celebrating lgbt months and being taught to applaud as if there is something virtuous in being gay. How warped is our society when it never celebrates marriage and family life in the curriculum but gives not one but two months to rainbow causes. It’s just odd when you really think about it. It’s all gone too far- pushing people away from respect and tolerance into enforcement to celebrate. That is not freedom it is liberal fascism. No Muslim should be made to wear rainbow shirts just as no gay man should be made to wear Muslim symbols. 

Holy... no, hang on, jimmerny gosh! Where to start?

Sexuality isn't "chosen". You didn't "choose" to be straight. I get you may not have intended that interpretation but it is really important to point out as there are a lot of people who remain to be of the very poor belief that being gay etc is a form of mental illness, or attention seeking etc. It's not, needs to stop being considered as such.

Don't your children get the same freedoms you enjoy? What if they wanted to celebrate LGBT months?

Curriculum - lets just get this ironed out a bit. Our curriculum is full of various forms of celebrating marriage. It's carved into our history. You look at how feuding powerful families used to concrete peace pacts by offering daughters to sons so the families became related and therefore, theoretically, harder to fall out with. That or marrying into other royal families in Europe to strengthen claims for new territories etc. Henry VIII had six wives. Essentially, the entire reason for the Protestant church in England etc is because Henry VIII wanted to marry more times than the pope would permit. Family itself is much more celebrated too. I mean I can go on. I can remember when it was still taboo to have LGBTQ+ characters on TV shows, even after the watershed. So lets not get all silly and start claiming things are unbalanced/unfair, etc. If nothing else you have to accept that these are marginalised communities we are talking about. "Rainbow causes" - sheesh.

Whilst we are here, no one forces anyone to celebrate anything. Honestly, that's pathetic to even suggest. It's actually disgusting to then compare that notion to fascism. In the case that sparked this debate, the player chose not to play... ergo, he wasn't "forced" to do anything. Fascists would have forced him out onto the pitch under the threat of punishment, possibly capital.

Sometimes you really can be the ultimate stereotypical far right soap box stomper. 

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16 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

This thread is about an Islamic footballer, not a Christian, so why are you so obsessed with criticising Christianity?

Strangely, because the 2nd post in this thread looks like this:
image.png.782c5a2b0a8cd62ae506585ef0cd3fe7.png

At this point, I believe you are Nadine Dorries - where do I go for collecting the competition reward money. 

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3 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

I withdraw it. I will however use your reference to me as ‘sunshine’ and ‘now you’re doing the right thing’ as strong justification that I believe you to be a condescending  t*** though. 

If you want to dish out medals for condescension- you might well get gold for the rather ignorant manner in which you dismiss the entire cannnon of Judeo-Christian philosophy they built the West 

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20 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

If you want to dish out medals for condescension- you might well get gold for the rather ignorant manner in which you dismiss the entire cannnon of Judeo-Christian philosophy they built the West 

Nope, sorry but the West, as with the rest of the world was built long before Judeo-Christian philosophy, just as it has been changing ever since. The world has changed unrecognisably from its origins which pre-date the existence of the Old Testament, by several thousand years and will also continue to change the world once Christianity gets outmuscled as the dominant religion - just like it outmuscled less well-resourced religions before. Don’t just take my word for it, this branch of theory actually has a basis in fact, because it can actually be evidenced. If you think the west wouldn’t have developed without the notion of a god then that is utter fantasy - you know, like the bible. 
I guess the Muslim states around the world should be taking heed of their lesser status because they chose the wrong god 😂. That or the brutal murderous nature of the historic Christian following took their resources and governance by force leaving them without a pot to p*** in.

In truth, the west developed through trade, violence and a good bit of old fashioned slavery (in the name of god) all of which you’re not mentioning because it’s all ok in hindsight to those wanting to cling onto desperate ways to prove their point. 
All religions have their place in history as a small period of time where at one point they held power over people for the purpose of control and governance, but mainly so that as a species we can learn from all their and other non religious governing powers’ horrendous mistakes. Like ensuring Christianity doesn’t prevent the celebration of same sex love just in case it rubs off on their children and makes them unnecessarily tolerant or inclusive of all people. Heaven forbid!! Let’s pretend we are ok with gay people but can we never mention it please - it might be catching 😂😂😂

If condescending you means I’m making justified points that you disagree with then I’m condescending. But if you’re  just insulted because you’re a Christian and expressing your views which I find equally offensive to my ideals as a non Christian, then you’re best blocking me. I’d hate to offend you again should, as a Christian, you wish to advocate patriarchy, colonialism, sexual intolerance, slavery, genocide, violence, supersessionism (or any of that other stuff that is acceptable in the bible and that helped build the West). 

Sweary done. Mic dropped 

Edited by SwearyCanary
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“Nope, sorry but the West, as with the rest of the world was built long before Judeo-Christian philosophy,” - this is so ignorant as to be laughable. The West is absolutely built on Aristotle, Plato, Augustine, Anselm et al… all our major schools, hospitals and universities are Catholic foundations. Our countryside is littered with churches and Cathedrals. The law was derived from Christian tradition as was our modern justice system. Parliament meets under a pugin painting of St Augustine of Canterbury converting the pagan king Ethelwald. I could go on and on…your post above is very ill informed    

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21 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

If you want to dish out medals for condescension- you might well get gold for the rather ignorant manner in which you dismiss the entire cannnon of Judeo-Christian philosophy they built the West 

To add to SwearyCanary's wise words.

Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all roamed the world prior to the Judeo-Christian philosophies were dominant in Europe. Worth remembering that neither originated there either.

The Greeks and Romans both had organised pagan religions, and democracies. They also had roads, sewage systems, fresh water systems. In fact, much of what the Greeks and Romans did became the blueprint for future governance systems, some remaining for millennia, some changing with technology but effectively remaining the same structures.

I see your latest response notes Aristotle, born in 384BC. He was certainly NOT Christian. Nor was he Jewish. In fact, there are quite a few debates about him as it would appear that he was an atheist. 

Plato - born 348/347BC. Again, too early to have anything to do with Christianity.

Augustine was born in 354 in Numidia and of Berber origin. A Christian philosopher he was. But very much worth noting he was of North African origin, born whilst the Romans controlled it as part of their empire.

Anselm, born 1033.

Essentially, all were born a very long time after the West was built.

"Judeo-Christian philosophy they built the West "

Is just not true. Christianity in Europe was carried on the back of Roman governance. The Romans adopted it and then spread it amongst their empire. An empire that included parliaments, senates, voting and elected leaders. They were not the first to do this. As you state, the Greeks were a heavy influence on the Romans which is why many call Greece, and sometimes specifically Athens, the birthplace of Western Democracy. This was hundreds if not thousands of years before AD 0, or the birth of Jesus.

Just to say that I went to Notre Dame, a Catholic High School, where I was taught Classical Civilisations A-Level. So no conflicts there, I was taught by Catholics about what existed before Christianity, and it included governance, philosophy and organised religion... it's why many Christian religious festivals were essentially adopted and adapted pagan ones. Christmas, Easter etc for example.

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Just to make the point once again, this thread is supposed to about a Muslim footballer refusing to play because he doesn’t wish to be associated with support for LGBTQ rights, yet some on here choose to ignore that fact and use it as an excuse to bash Christianity instead.  Why are they so quick to do this, yet seemingly so reticent to do the same about Islam?  And they then accuse those who point this out as being Islamophobic.  What gross hypocrisy.

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47 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Just to make the point once again, this thread is supposed to about a Muslim footballer refusing to play because he doesn’t wish to be associated with support for LGBTQ rights, yet some on here choose to ignore that fact and use it as an excuse to bash Christianity instead.  Why are they so quick to do this, yet seemingly so reticent to do the same about Islam?  And they then accuse those who point this out as being Islamophobic.  What gross hypocrisy.

Just again...
image.png.782c5a2b0a8cd62ae506585ef0cd3fe7.png

You were the one, in the 2nd post of this thread, who drew Christianity into this. People's responses didn't actually disagree with you on the basic premise to begin with. For example I just explored the reason as to why rather than coming from an anti-Christian position it is more likely to do with our culture etc.

Ever since you had people respond to some of your comments in ways you didn't like, you suddenly keep telling people what they shouldn't be talking about and what the thread was actually for. Not sure anyone made you the thread derailment police, and if they did, I'm pretty sure they'd not be happy for you derailing this one.

Edited by chicken
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6 hours ago, chicken said:

Just again...
image.png.782c5a2b0a8cd62ae506585ef0cd3fe7.png

You were the one, in the 2nd post of this thread, who drew Christianity into this. People's responses didn't actually disagree with you on the basic premise to begin with. For example I just explored the reason as to why rather than coming from an anti-Christian position it is more likely to do with our culture etc.

Ever since you had people respond to some of your comments in ways you didn't like, you suddenly keep telling people what they shouldn't be talking about and what the thread was actually for. Not sure anyone made you the thread derailment police, and if they did, I'm pretty sure they'd not be happy for you derailing this one.

And you just keep proving my point over and over again.

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9 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

“Nope, sorry but the West, as with the rest of the world was built long before Judeo-Christian philosophy,” - this is so ignorant as to be laughable. The West is absolutely built on Aristotle, Plato, Augustine, Anselm et al… all our major schools, hospitals and universities are Catholic foundations. Our countryside is littered with churches and Cathedrals. The law was derived from Christian tradition as was our modern justice system. Parliament meets under a pugin painting of St Augustine of Canterbury converting the pagan king Ethelwald. I could go on and on…your post above is very ill informed    

I’m not sure anyone that professes to follow a religion based solely on faith can really comment on how I’ll-informed or ignorant anyone else is - especially when that person presents factual evidence to support their argument. I notice you don’t rebuff or justify any of the murders committed in the name of god - does that count as ignorance? Can you be anything other than ‘ill-informed’ when your entire belief system is based on believing something you can’t see or prove aside from someone else just telling you it’s true? 

Clearly we are at an impasse of debate where you have no interest in taking on my views and I have no interest in taking on yours. I’ll pledge however to not rule our religion until either it comes up with evidence that can’t be reasonably refuted or there is evidence that reliably comes to light that proves it is all a load of tripe. That’s pretty balanced and fair I’d say. 

Edited by SwearyCanary

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This is like many a Sunday morning chat I used to have with Jehovah’s who used to come round preaching to those unlucky enough to be caught! Never could give me a straight answer on religion. And as sweary and chicken rightly state society and principles teach modern living not religion, religion still teaches intolerance and tries to change those who don’t believe! Some people go far more extreme and that’s the danger of religion, those who kill in the name of god! 
 

If people find comfort in religion then brilliant, I fully respect that, if it makes them better people again fantastic, if you need god to find meaning to your life good for you, but it’s views should not be forced onto others and effect their lives.It should be a personal thing.

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9 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Just to make the point once again, this thread is supposed to about a Muslim footballer refusing to play because he doesn’t wish to be associated with support for LGBTQ rights, yet some on here choose to ignore that fact and use it as an excuse to bash Christianity instead.  Why are they so quick to do this, yet seemingly so reticent to do the same about Islam?  And they then accuse those who point this out as being Islamophobic.  What gross hypocrisy.

Too right, why ain't we giving them Muslamics a good booting . Leave off the Christians as they are a joyful, tolerant and peace loving bunch, as this thread shows. 

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1 minute ago, Herman said:

Too right, why ain't we giving them Muslamics a good booting . Leave off the Christians as they are a joyful, tolerant and peace loving bunch, as this thread shows. 

As I’ve stated previously, as an agnostic bordering on atheist I have no axe to grind about any particular faith.  I merely wish there was a level playing field when it comes to criticising the various religions and find it all too predictable that on a thread supposedly about a Muslim player refusing to play as he didn’t want to be seen supporting LGBTQ rights, there is next to no discussion of homophobia within Islam and the overwhelming majority of opprobrium is heaped on Christianity.  Society’s unwillingness to address this was exactly the point I made at the beginning of the thread.

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4 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

As I’ve stated previously, as an agnostic bordering on atheist I have no axe to grind about any particular faith.  I merely wish there was a level playing field when it comes to criticising the various religions and find it all too predictable that on a thread supposedly about a Muslim player refusing to play as he didn’t want to be seen supporting LGBTQ rights, there is next to no discussion of homophobia within Islam and the overwhelming majority of opprobrium is heaped on Christianity.  Society’s unwillingness to address this was exactly the point I made at the beginning of the thread.

Funny, but I think you’ll find that us atheists don’t discriminate against any one religion, Christian or Muslim both teach intolerance of others! we don’t believe in any of them, it’s each religion that discriminates against each other. I have no issues with anyones leaning to their sexuality, that’s up to them to live a happy and loving life in their relationship. No one has the right to say how anyone should live in their choice of relationships!

Edited by Indy

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