Farke to Borrusia Monchengladbach

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

I'm still amazed Smith took the job knowing he wouldn't be able to sign anyone in January. It was a far too convenient and cosy appointment.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

3 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

This is pretty much my opinion. I didn't agree with sacking him, though prior to the Brentford game I could understand them doing so (after the Brentford game and our first 3 points and a performance that featured plenty of fight and grit in defending that lead was stupid).

However, sacking him and replacing him for Smith was never going to improve us and there was ample available evidence to come to that conclusion at the time without the benefit of hindsight. In a season of abject performances, Webber has beaten them all with his actions this season.

Agree with all of this and as you say no hindsight whatsoever is required because it is exactly what many of us said at the time.

[hogesar 9,658]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

Sacking Farke might have been the right call, but replacing him with a failing manager wasn’t! It was the cheap option.

One thing Dean Smith and Shakey were unlikely to be is the cheap option. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

12 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Absolute c**p, as is sacking a manager as the fall guy for the DoF's failings - perhaps you should be complaining about sentimentality keeping Webber in a job because I can't think of any other reason why he is still here.

I actually agree with you regarding Webber and believe he should leave the club. 

I don't think that excuses the role that Farke played - his situation was every bit as untenable. 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

One thing Dean Smith and Shakey were unlikely to be is the cheap option. 

Maybe not, which only makes Webber's decision even worse than it already looks.

[Monty13 2,231]

17 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I'm still amazed Smith took the job knowing he wouldn't be able to sign anyone in January. It was a far too convenient and cosy appointment.

Realistically, who expected anyone coming in to save us this season? Especially if there was no more money.

I imagine he took the job knowing that the rest of the season was a free hit and he would be involved in a summer rebuild.

[Indy 3,298]

1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said:

No one could have kept us up. You are deluded and thank **** fans like you are not in charge. 

Certainly not someone who was sacked by a team with 160 million pounds worth of players, his team in the same week! 😂 But keep the faith in a manager who’s only won one promotion! We have no option but to stick with it, as Webber nor Smith are going anywhere else soon! Each to their own opinions, but keep up the vitriol because I don’t agree with your opinion!

[Indy 3,298]

48 minutes ago, hogesar said:

One thing Dean Smith and Shakey were unlikely to be is the cheap option. 

Of course they were! He was sacked unemployed no compensation needed!

[Van wink 2,994]

3 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Absolute **** on so many levels.

You are Terminally Dim and I claim my £5

[hogesar 9,658]

2 hours ago, Indy said:

Of course they were! He was sacked unemployed no compensation needed!

Not at all. Firstly, sacking Farke was an expensive choice so it wasn't a financial one.

Secondly, Smith and Shakespeare were on a big payout from themselves being sacked - which they have to forego if they get straight back into work. Villa will have been paying him handsomely. He will not have come here for small money.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

If Mönchengladbach have kept their reputation for youth development that gave them their nickname of "die Fohlen" (the foals/colts), then they'll have the perfect manager in charge to encourage them on their way. 

Farke may well be gone, but he gave us far too many enjoyable moments when in charge just to forget about him.

[Nuff Said 5,131]

6 hours ago, Indy said:

Sacking Farke might have been the right call, but replacing him with a failing manager wasn’t! It was the cheap option.

I’ll give you one out of three Indy. How can you call Smith a failing manager in comparison when he’s not had one season with us yet? It took Farke two in the Championship to get us up. And he (and Shakey) won’t have been cheap, that would have been someone from the lower leagues, or somewhere obscure like Norway 😉.

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I’ll give you one out of three Indy. How can you call Smith a failing manager in comparison when he’s not had one season with us yet? It took Farke two in the Championship to get us up. And he (and Shakey) won’t have been cheap, that would have been someone from the lower leagues, or somewhere obscure like Norway 😉.

How many Championship seasons did it take Smith to get a team promoted?

[OnDaBall 137]

5 hours ago, Indy said:

After spending millions we don’t have! How is a sacked manager not failed?

The majority of managers, even lots of so called top ones, end up getting sacked. That doesn't so much concern me, but the fact we clearly sacked Farke with no plan in place and then appointed the first manager who happened to become available does.

[hogesar 9,658]

4 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Maybe not, which only makes Webber's decision even worse than it already looks.

I think Smith will prove a decent enough manager next season.

[Nuff Said 5,131]

10 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

How many Championship seasons did it take Smith to get a team promoted?

Specious argument.

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

11 hours ago, hogesar said:

Not at all. Firstly, sacking Farke was an expensive choice so it wasn't a financial one.

Secondly, Smith and Shakespeare were on a big payout from themselves being sacked - which they have to forego if they get straight back into work. Villa will have been paying him handsomely. He will not have come here for small money.

Is it a fact Villa could renege on paying the pair compensation? Would that be part amount or full? I can’t see that mentioned anywhere. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

19 hours ago, astro said:

Considering you never go to games, it’s a bit rich calling people ‘idiots’ for making a decision based on what they see in front of them on the pitch. 

They have these new-fangled things called television and streaming that allow people to watch things from really big distances, even bigger distances than you can with binoculars! You can even see it on the other side of the planet!

In spite of considering the move to oust Farke, driven by the usual frustrated fantasy HR 'supporters', as idiotic though, and the fact that Smith's failure has proved what a pointless exercise it was, I've every faith in Smith's competence and his ability to get things heading back in a positive direction next season. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Indy 3,298]

19 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Is it a fact Villa could renege on paying the pair compensation? Would that be part amount or full? I can’t see that mentioned anywhere. 

Unless in the agreement of termination which under mutual consent would possibly see Villa asking for gardening leave, but sacking someone and paying them off would not warrant any such payment restriction, it would be under the existing deal and he’d be paid in full. Also if he was sacked it’s illegal to stop someone else employing the sacked person, only if on gardening leave or termination agreement clause! I doubt him coming here had any effect financially to Smiths payment on him being sacked.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Indy

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

Specious argument.

It's not specious because it doesn't fit in with your narrative.

If you are going to beat Farke over the head for his failure to get Norwich promoted in his first season, then you have to accept an analysis that you might not like when assessing Dean Smith.

The context of Farke's first season was that the wage budget had to be splashed and we needed to recoup more from transfers than we were able to spend. Brentford were in a period where their wage budget and spending power increased.

So, after finishing 5th under Warburton, Smith took over with Brentford in 11th. He got them to 9th, but failed to get close to the PPG total of the interim manager (Lee Carsley) he took over from. Maybe the damage was done before he arrived and the 28 games he was in charge for don't count? So let's just look at his first full season. He managed to get them to the lofty heights of 10th. Then 9th. Maybe Warburton just overachieved getting Brentford within a whisker of the Premier League and therefore it wasn't a failure on Smith's part to get them into the playoffs?

Well in that case, let's see what happened after Smith left (to join a club that were then 2 points behind Farke's Norwich and ended that season 17 points behind, despite a much higher wage budget and, on paper at least, superior squad)? Frank took them to an 11th placed finished before rocketing them to back-to-back 3rd placed finishes, the second of which culminating in promotion to the Premier League.

All pretty indicative of a decidedly average manager. Or is all that specious too?

[canarydan23 4,060]

31 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Is it a fact Villa could renege on paying the pair compensation? Would that be part amount or full? I can’t see that mentioned anywhere. 

I'd be surprised if that was the case. Villa wanted to terminate his contract, Smith didn't want to leave, why would he accept stipulations that would prevent him taking future jobs? I suspect he just got a big fat chunk of cash into his bank account and disappeared on holiday not thinking for one second a Sporting Director would be dumb enough to give him another stab at the Premier League that season.

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

14 minutes ago, Indy said:

Unless in the agreement of termination which under mutual consent would possibly see Villa asking for gardening leave, but sacking someone and paying them off would not warrant any such payment restriction, it would be under the existing deal and he’d be paid in full. Also if he was sacked it’s illegal to stop someone else employing the sacked person, only if on gardening leave or termination agreement clause! I doubt him coming here had any effect financially to Smiths payment on him being sacked.

So it’s probably pure guess work to suit the narrative. 

[shefcanary 2,402]

45 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Is it a fact Villa could renege on paying the pair compensation? Would that be part amount or full? I can’t see that mentioned anywhere. 

Hypothetically Vila could renege, Smith could then take them to ET.  At the ET although Smith would likely win, the Tribunal chair would take account of the amount Smith was being paid by Norwich and would deduct that from any contractual entitlement from Villa. 

What I suspect has happened has been Smith & Villa have negotiated a settlement somewhere between the full contractual entitlement and the full contractual entitlement less the value of his current contract with Norwich.  Norwich will probably have then offered to make up the difference based on certain milestones being achieved - a big milestone would be avoid relegation, so Smith will be slightly out of pocket. 

This assumes Norwich are not paying him what he was earning at Villa, which I believe is most likely.

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

Just now, shefcanary said:

Hypothetically Vila could renege, Smith could then take them to ET.  At the ET although Smith would likely win, the Tribunal chair would take account of the amount Smith was being paid by Norwich and would deduct that from any contractual entitlement from Villa. 

What I suspect has happened has been Smith & Villa have negotiated a settlement somewhere between the full contractual entitlement and the full contractual entitlement less the value of his current contract with Norwich.  Norwich will probably have then offered to make up the difference based on certain milestones being achieved - a big milestone would be avoid relegation, so Smith will be slightly out of pocket. 

This assumes Norwich are not paying him what he was earning at Villa, which I believe is most likely.

I’m surprised to read he was only on £30k a week at Villa. I say only as it’s still a great wage but compared to someone like Rodgers at Leicester (at least £100k some reports £200k) isn’t that great. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

7 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I’m surprised to read he was only on £30k a week at Villa. I say only as it’s still a great wage but compared to someone like Rodgers at Leicester (at least £100k some reports £200k) isn’t that great. 

I guess having EPL runner-up and FA Cup winner on your managerial CV attracts more earning potential than one that says once got a team to 5th in the Championship (one of that division's most valuable ever squads) and kept a team in the EPL thanks to a technological failure.

Edited May 17, 2022 by canarydan23

[hogesar 9,658]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Hypothetically Vila could renege, Smith could then take them to ET.  At the ET although Smith would likely win, the Tribunal chair would take account of the amount Smith was being paid by Norwich and would deduct that from any contractual entitlement from Villa. 

What I suspect has happened has been Smith & Villa have negotiated a settlement somewhere between the full contractual entitlement and the full contractual entitlement less the value of his current contract with Norwich.  Norwich will probably have then offered to make up the difference based on certain milestones being achieved - a big milestone would be avoid relegation, so Smith will be slightly out of pocket. 

This assumes Norwich are not paying him what he was earning at Villa, which I believe is most likely.

Yes, roughly what i was alluding to.

[hogesar 9,658]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

I guess having EPL runner-up and FA Cup winner on your managerial CV attracts more earning potential than one that says once got a team to 5th in the Championship (one of that division's most valuable ever squads) and kept a team in the EPL thanks to a technological failure.

I find it convenient,  and will say so in the relevant topic actually, that all those who are huge anti Dean Smith always without failure mention keeping Villa in the EPL due to goal line tech, but conveniently avoid mentioning the following 11th placed finish, where the second season is often just as hard if not harder for newly promoted sides (ask Sheffield United, or Leeds now, or Brentford next)

[Google Bot 3,275]

1 hour ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I’m surprised to read he was only on £30k a week at Villa.

You'd imagine there's a lot of performance related bonuses for management in football on top of that base wage though?

Wonder what Smith's bonus was for survival.  Could've been a cool million sat waiting for him - and we're feeling gutted lol.  I'd too would be walking around telling everyone we could do it if there was such a carrot dangled! 🙂

Edited May 17, 2022 by Google Bot

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I find it convenient,  and will say so in the relevant topic actually, that all those who are huge anti Dean Smith always without failure mention keeping Villa in the EPL due to goal line tech, but conveniently avoid mentioning the following 11th placed finish, where the second season is often just as hard if not harder for newly promoted sides (ask Sheffield United, or Leeds now, or Brentford next)

Whilst asking Sheffield United, Leeds and Brentford, should I also ask them how hard they thought their second season would have been/will be had £250 million been spent on the squad since promotion?

Edited May 17, 2022 by canarydan23

[Indy 3,298]

1 hour ago, Midlands Yellow said:

So it’s probably pure guess work to suit the narrative. 

Of course it is, none of us know, but we can all take a guess based on legality and the fact that he left Villa into our employment! Once termination is taken by Villa, I’m pretty sure they settle all financial agreements there and then. Whenever I’ve been involved in the process of sacking someone, the reason is discussed and the financial package is agreed and signed off, once they leave all finances are paid up and they’re free to go where they want.

I’m sure football might be different in staff, but can’t see much difference!