Farke to Borrusia Monchengladbach

[hogesar 9,618]

On 17/05/2022 at 14:46, canarydan23 said:

We can only hope. From what I've seen, Smith's Championship PB of 5th place doesn't look in much danger of being improved on. I suspect his average Championship final position of 8-9th would be a good bet. I know we've got a great squad for the Championship, but so did Villa and he could get a tune out of them sufficient to see them promoted automatically.

This is a bit harsh. Wasn't Bruce sacked from Villa after one win in 10, they were sitting 15th and 10 points adrift from top of the table (Sheffield United?) at that point?

They'd played 12 games and had 15 points. United had 25. He had to come in 12 games in with a singificantly underperforming side (I agree it was a very good side) and turn them around quickly. He done that, and Villa fans saw him as a hero for doing so. Brentford at the time were gutted to be losing him after 3 top 10 finishes and he left them just outside the playoffs, or in them (5th or 7th, not sure).

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

This is a bit harsh. Wasn't Bruce sacked from Villa after one win in 10, they were sitting 15th and 10 points adrift from top of the table (Sheffield United?) at that point?

They'd played 12 games and had 15 points. United had 25. He had to come in 12 games in with a singificantly underperforming side (I agree it was a very good side) and turn them around quickly. He done that, and Villa fans saw him as a hero for doing so. Brentford at the time were gutted to be losing him after 3 top 10 finishes and he left them just outside the playoffs, or in them (5th or 7th, not sure).

 

We were 7 points adrift from Sheffield United at the very same time and finished 5 points ahead of them. Villa finished 13 points behind them.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

We were 7 points adrift from Sheffield United at the very same time and finished 5 points ahead of them. Villa finished 13 points behind them.

Yes, because Farke and Webber produced an extraordinary season - if we're going to compare every championship manager to that then we'll never find better.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yes, because Farke and Webber produced an extraordinary season - if we're going to compare every championship manager to that then we'll never find better.

So we should only compare Smith with things that are rubbish? There aren't really too many that he stands up well against. Brentford made the playoffs the season before he became manager and made the playoffs the first full season after he'd left. They didn't make the playoffs any season he was there. And although they started poorly under Bruce, the season before that they finished 4th in the league, higher than they finished under Smith.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

On 16/05/2022 at 18:18, Terminally Yellow said:

No one could have kept us up. You are deluded and thank **** fans like you are not in charge. 

So what was the point of sackng Farke? I doubt Guardiola could have kept us up, so why blame the manager?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

On 16/05/2022 at 18:42, Google Bot said:

Or if the plan from the start was to bypass that window as we did.

I think the club was pretty clear from the beginning nothing would be done in January. Im sure Smith will have taken the job knowing full well those were the conditions - hence all the press statements about how happy he was with the squad. If that's true then his judgement is very questionable. I suspect he knew the squad wasnt good enough but took the job anyway

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

On 16/05/2022 at 19:15, Terminally Yellow said:

I actually agree with you regarding Webber and believe he should leave the club. 

I don't think that excuses the role that Farke played - his situation was every bit as untenable. 

Why though? Farke did the best he could with players we all agree werent good enough. The only thing that splits the fans is when they determined they werent good enough. Some needed them to be sh*te under another manager before accepting it and looked elsewhere to place blame (ie good players underperforming due to bad manager) others didnt and didnt support the sacking.

Farke didnt play any role in recruitment as far as I am aware. The club is set up so that we have a head coach who gets on with managing the first team. Webber's role is recruitment. If the players werent good enough, that falls on Webber.

I actually think Webber also did the best he could with limited resources and for a club with little to attract players of the required calibre.

What I do blame Webber for is the decsion to spend so much on Tzolis, a player deemed not ready to play a part in the campaign this season (sure Farke was delighted a fifth of the budget was spent on that), and the poor usage of the loan slots.

Questionable also was the decision to sign Rashica and Sargent from a relegated club, but when you're shopping in the bargain basement, options are limited.

Webber was also the driving force behind sacking Farke - a manager it now seems was far more commited than he was ad actually wanted to be here.

Edited May 20, 2022 by The Great Mass Debater

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

On 17/05/2022 at 11:59, hogesar said:

I find it convenient,  and will say so in the relevant topic actually, that all those who are huge anti Dean Smith always without failure mention keeping Villa in the EPL due to goal line tech, but conveniently avoid mentioning the following 11th placed finish, where the second season is often just as hard if not harder for newly promoted sides (ask Sheffield United, or Leeds now, or Brentford next)

Yes but if not for the failure he wouldnt have had the opportunity to build, he'd probably have been sacked for them being relegated. However he was gifted a platform to build upon. Easier to bridge a gap over 2 seasons than 1

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

On 17/05/2022 at 12:34, Google Bot said:

Yeah, you'd imagine he gets paid the remainder of his contract at the least?  I guess any compensation on top of that is whether high profile sackings have a negative affect on your ability to move to new employment so perhaps there are strings attached to that element?

Who knows with Football - it's a mad world when it comes to finances.

Farke's compensation was a flat million - it wasnt the 4 years of wages he would have been paid after signing a new contract 11 games earlier

[hogesar 9,618]

18 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Yes but if not for the failure he wouldnt have had the opportunity to build, he'd probably have been sacked for them being relegated. However he was gifted a platform to build upon. Easier to bridge a gap over 2 seasons than 1

Ask Sheffield United or Leeds if it's 'easier' in the second season.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

So we should only compare Smith with things that are rubbish? There aren't really too many that he stands up well against. Brentford made the playoffs the season before he became manager and made the playoffs the first full season after he'd left. They didn't make the playoffs any season he was there. And although they started poorly under Bruce, the season before that they finished 4th in the league, higher than they finished under Smith.

No, there's a gap between rubbish and our-best-ever-season-at-that-level-in-our-entire-history-with-a-points-total-to-match.

 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

35 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Farke didnt play any role in recruitment as far as I am aware.

What?

"My role is aimed at putting a strategy in place for the first-team scouting department and also making sure the Academy recruitment is working as well and implementing that strategy. Once the strategy is in place, I make sure it’s working, support the scouts in their roles and on a monthly basis, we will then have a meeting when we go through all the players we’ve looked at. My role eventually leads to speaking to Stuart and Daniel where we then go through the players and they then makes the decision on whether we are signing those players."

https://www.canaries.co.uk/content/meet-head-of-recruitment-kieran-scott

Of course he has a say. 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

2 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

What?

"My role is aimed at putting a strategy in place for the first-team scouting department and also making sure the Academy recruitment is working as well and implementing that strategy. Once the strategy is in place, I make sure it’s working, support the scouts in their roles and on a monthly basis, we will then have a meeting when we go through all the players we’ve looked at. My role eventually leads to speaking to Stuart and Daniel where we then go through the players and they then makes the decision on whether we are signing those players."

https://www.canaries.co.uk/content/meet-head-of-recruitment-kieran-scott

Of course he has a say. 

 

"We have £50m to spend this year Daniel. Shall we spend a fifth of that on a teenager that wont be at all ready to help you keep your job this year?"

"Ja absolut!"

 

Doesnt seem very likely does it?

 

Webber thinking 'Hmmm, if I sign a player touted as having the potential to be one of the best wingers in the world and sell him years later for a huge profit, I'll enhance my reputation no end! And if Farke ends up collateral damage, well, who cares?' seems far more plausible.

[canarydan23 4,060]

35 minutes ago, hogesar said:

No, there's a gap between rubbish and our-best-ever-season-at-that-level-in-our-entire-history-with-a-points-total-to-match.

 

Yes, hence why I gave you some pre-Smith Brentford and post-Smith Brentford league positions as an alternative to the comparison that saw Farke outscore Smith by 14 points with a lower wage budget and more cheaply assembled squad.

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

Brentford at the time were gutted to be losing him

They're not now.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

2 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

"We have £50m to spend this year Daniel. Shall we spend a fifth of that on a teenager that wont be at all ready to help you keep your job this year?"

"Ja absolut!"

 

Doesnt seem very likely does it?

 

Webber thinking 'Hmmm, if I sign a player touted as having the potential to be one of the best wingers in the world and sell him years later for a huge profit, I'll enhance my reputation no end! And if Farke ends up collateral damage, well, who cares?' seems far more plausible.

Yes it seems very likely as that's what has actually happened.

Well, apart from the awful German stereotyping.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Yes it seems very likely as that's what has actually happened.

Well, apart from the awful German stereotyping.

It seems very likely to you that's what he said because you're desperate for it to be true. The reality is almost certainly different, not least because we've countless examples of how Sporting Director systems work, but also from the recent Athletic article in which it was revealed that Farke was incredibly annoyed and frustrated at the summer recruitment.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

It seems very likely to you that's what he said because you're desperate for it to be true. The reality is almost certainly different, not least because we've countless examples of how Sporting Director systems work, but also from the recent Athletic article in which it was revealed that Farke was incredibly annoyed and frustrated at the summer recruitment.

Please do link me the athletic article because no such article exists. 

Your making things up to support your blind, objectionable loyalty to Daniel Farke.

Farke - like Smith enjoys now - had a say over players who were signed. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

46 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Please do link me the athletic article because no such article exists. 

Your making things up to support your blind, objectionable loyalty to Daniel Farke.

Farke - like Smith enjoys now - had a say over players who were signed. 

Yes it does. Do you have an Athletic subscription? If so, I'll link the article. If not, do you think I'm making up these quotes...

"Farke indicated he wanted the money generated by Buendia’s sale spent on three signings: a centre-back, a holding midfielder and a forward to directly replace the then 24-year-old South American. The reality for the club was that the money would have to cover the majority of Norwich’s summer recruitment."

"Farke made it clear that this time he wanted to add Premier League experience to the group. An elite level centre-back was top of his list, with a defensive midfielder not far behind to replace the sizeable hole left by Tottenham loanee Oliver Skipp."

...or did I quote them from an article that you bizarrely claim doesn't exist?

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes it does. Do you have an Athletic subscription? If so, I'll link the article. If not, do you think I'm making up these quotes...

"Farke indicated he wanted the money generated by Buendia’s sale spent on three signings: a centre-back, a holding midfielder and a forward to directly replace the then 24-year-old South American. The reality for the club was that the money would have to cover the majority of Norwich’s summer recruitment."

"Farke made it clear that this time he wanted to add Premier League experience to the group. An elite level centre-back was top of his list, with a defensive midfielder not far behind to replace the sizeable hole left by Tottenham loanee Oliver Skipp."

...or did I quote them from an article that you bizarrely claim doesn't exist?

The article exists. Show me exactly where it says Farke was unhappy. That's what doesn't exist.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

The article exists. Show me exactly where it says Farke was unhappy. That's what doesn't exist.

Sigh.

"Farke did not believe he had a good enough group to stay up"

I've never seen someone suffering such cognitive dissonance. Either that or you know you're taking balls but are related to Webber or Smith. There's no other logical conclusion.

[Mason 47 1,373]

Webber said long ago on transfers 'the head coach has the final say, but not the only say'. Don't think it's ever been the case that Farke rocks up at 7.30am on a Monday morning and Webber is at the door saying 'hi Daniel, this is Ozan'

We may not have gone on to get the ideal targets that Farke would have wanted, can't deny our recruitment was poor. But to say he had zero influence over transfer is a bizarre claim

[Diane 500]

13 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Webber said long ago on transfers 'the head coach has the final say, but not the only say'. Don't think it's ever been the case that Farke rocks up at 7.30am on a Monday morning and Webber is at the door saying 'hi Daniel, this is Ozan'

We may not have gone on to get the ideal targets that Farke would have wanted, can't deny our recruitment was poor. But to say he had zero influence over transfer is a bizarre claim

Michael Bailey also confirmed that Farke was involved in the signings, he said he wouldn't have had anyone he didn't want and had the final say . Paddy Davitt in his q & a said exactly the same thing and went on to say that Farke really pushed to get Rashica, Billy & PLM

[tea total 79]

1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said:

The article exists. Show me exactly where it says Farke was unhappy. That's what doesn't exist.

I've read the article twice and it paints a very interesting picture of what allegedly went on during last summer. If you look at the timings of the 'key' arrivals it does seem to indicate that Farke wanted better players but had to make do with interesting timings, being patient and seeing your prime targets going elsewhere. To have a defensive midfielder (Normann) sign after the first four Premiership games had already been played was odd. That bit of business should've been done asap so to bed him into the squad before the KO.  Same can be said of the CB role (Kabak)...that also fits! Or there could just be another reason. It's obvious that DM and SW chatted about what players they wanted but SW has the overall say and I think could be where the cracks started to appear. SW wasn't prepared to break the financial structure so the rest is history. Some would say we'll done to Webber for sticking to his guns and putting the club first...others say why not gamble a little. Bit of a conundrum 🤔

Edited May 20, 2022 by tea total

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

18 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

"Farke made it clear that this time he wanted to add Premier League experience to the group. An elite level centre-back was top of his list, with a defensive midfielder not far behind to replace the sizeable hole left by Tottenham loanee Oliver Skipp."

 

Were Kabak and Normann supposed to be those players do you think?

[canarydan23 4,060]

58 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

Were Kabak and Normann supposed to be those players do you think?

Absolutely not. Sounds like he wanted Andrich as the DM and a marquee centre half signing, either Ajer or St Juste, all of whom have had excellent seasons.

And it sounds like it was a refusal to pay market value rather than lack of funds that stopped us. If we'd have restricted it to Farke's three desired signings, we'd have had the cash to pay Andrich what he wanted and to outbid Brentford for Ajer or offer a sufficient amount for St Juste.

Webber chose not to adhere to Farke's wishes and essentially relegated us and sacked Farke for his own failure.

Edited May 21, 2022 by canarydan23

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

Absolutely not. Sounds like he wanted Andrich as the DM and a marquee centre half signing, either Ajer or St Juste, all of whom have had excellent seasons.

And it sounds like it was a refusal to pay market value rather than lack of funds that stopped us. If we'd have restricted it to Farke's three desired signings, we'd have had the cash to pay Andrich what he wanted and to outbid Brentford for Ajer or offer a sufficient amount for St Juste.

Webber chose not to adhere to Farke's wishes and essentially relegated us and sacked Farke for his own failure.

But Paddy and Bailey both said Farke himself really pushed for Rashica, Gilmour and PLM so...

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But Paddy and Bailey both said Farke himself really pushed for Rashica, Gilmour and PLM so...

If that is true, it's apparent he quickly regretted the Gilmour signing and promptly dumped him to the bench, where he should have stayed. Inexplicable that he keeps getting selected. In 3 or Smith's risible 4 victories, Gilmour didn't feature.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

17 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

If that is true, it's apparent he quickly regretted the Gilmour signing and promptly dumped him to the bench, where he should have stayed. Inexplicable that he keeps getting selected. In 3 or Smith's risible 4 victories, Gilmour didn't feature.

Not playing Cantwell or Gilmour I do feel was part of the decision to sack Farke. The fact both were instantly restored to the first team on Smith's appointment speaks volumes, but also, the fact Gilmour has contributed practically nothing having played most of the season, and Todd being firstly well off the pace, then benched, then not even in the squad then shipped out on loan, where he again failed to impress and a buy-out not taken up only goes to vindicate Farke.

He should have been backed. Instead they chose to believe the hype over both players.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

Apparently BM was interested in Farke back in 2021. 

https://www.gladbachlive.de/news/gladbach-ex-manager-max-eberl-wollte-daniel-farke-schon-2021-99752