Farke to Borrusia Monchengladbach

[Google Bot 3,255]

16 minutes ago, Indy said:

Of course it is, none of us know, but we can all take a guess based on legality and the fact that he left Villa into our employment! Once termination is taken by Villa, I’m pretty sure they settle all financial agreements there and then.

Yeah, you'd imagine he gets paid the remainder of his contract at the least?  I guess any compensation on top of that is whether high profile sackings have a negative affect on your ability to move to new employment so perhaps there are strings attached to that element?

Who knows with Football - it's a mad world when it comes to finances.

[Indy 3,283]

18 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I find it convenient,  and will say so in the relevant topic actually, that all those who are huge anti Dean Smith always without failure mention keeping Villa in the EPL due to goal line tech, but conveniently avoid mentioning the following 11th placed finish, where the second season is often just as hard if not harder for newly promoted sides (ask Sheffield United, or Leeds now, or Brentford next)

Let’s take all history out of the equation, look at this season, Smiths record at Villa was abysmal considering after 11 games they were a few points and a couple positions above us, he’s not turned us around at all, his remit coming here was to make us more competitive and give it a good go at staying up! 27 games later we have an abysmal set of records for worst performances for a premier league team, you can’t blame Farke for that! In 26 games come Spurs his record is 4 wins, 5 draws and 19 losses, we’re more disconnected as a club between fans, DOF and certainly a very big 50% split on Smith. He has certainly not united the fans in seeing what he’s bought to the squad! Some of you do keep going on about this being not his team, give him a summer yet he’s already said there’s not going to be a raft of changes, so that indicates this squad is his team, like it or not! He’s got be spot on with who comes in, and will it be the same, Webber and the scouts doing the groundwork and Smith detailed in his general requirements?

[astro 356]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

They have these new-fangled things called television and streaming that allow people to watch things from really big distances, even bigger distances than you can with binoculars! You can even see it on the other side of the planet!

In spite of considering the move to oust Farke, driven by the usual frustrated fantasy HR 'supporters', as idiotic though, and the fact that Smith's failure has proved what a pointless exercise it was, I've every faith in Smith's competence and his ability to get things heading back in a positive direction next season. 

Television does not allow you to watch the body language of the team, or gauge the feelings of the crowd. You don’t hear the murmurings of discontent, spot team mates arguing with each other, have the ability to focus on a single player for five minutes, watch the work of the manager and coaches, see opposition players in acres of space as we are plying more narrow, etc. I think your sarcasm  is a little misplaced don’t you? 

[Midlands Yellow 3,913]

45 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

You'd imagine there's a lot of performance related bonuses for management in football on top of that base wage though?

Wonder what Smith's bonus was for survival.  Could've been a cool million sat waiting for him - and we're feeling gutted lol.  I'd too would be walking around telling everyone we could do it if there was such a carrot dangled! 🙂

£30k a week at Villa and a shade over £20k a week here (lots of bonuses mentioned which he won’t be getting!) Farke was on more money at Norwich than Smith. Or maybe not! I was looking at monthly pay not weekly. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Midlands Yellow

[hogesar 9,606]

25 minutes ago, Indy said:

Of course it is, none of us know, but we can all take a guess based on legality and the fact that he left Villa into our employment! Once termination is taken by Villa, I’m pretty sure they settle all financial agreements there and then. Whenever I’ve been involved in the process of sacking someone, the reason is discussed and the financial package is agreed and signed off, once they leave all finances are paid up and they’re free to go where they want.

I’m sure football might be different in staff, but can’t see much difference!

I thought, perhaps wrongly, although it's from things i've read so i'll have to look back, that in football management, if you get sacked you're 'compensated' for the remainder of your contract. However, if you then take employment in that time, you don't need compensating, unless the figures are different then of course there's a remainder, as I think Sheff described.

Regardless, going off information online Smith was on approx £30k p/w and Farke apparently £10k p/w.

Sacking Farke for Smith was nothing to do with a 'cheap option', it was all a very expensive option.

Edited May 17, 2022 by hogesar

[littleyellowbirdie 2,499]

11 minutes ago, astro said:

Television does not allow you to watch the body language of the team, or gauge the feelings of the crowd. You don’t hear the murmurings of discontent, spot team mates arguing with each other, have the ability to focus on a single player for five minutes, watch the work of the manager and coaches, see opposition players in acres of space as we are plying more narrow, etc. I think your sarcasm  is a little misplaced don’t you? 

So what have you learnt from the players body language? Let me guess: a lot are unhappy and snapping at each other? Might have something to do with frustration from losing lots of games. What about the management team? Do they look frustrated? Quiet? I'm guessing they're not looking content. Again, might have something to do with losing lots. 

I'm guessing you were going to games last championship season? What was the players' body language like? Was there lots of positivity between players? I wasn't there, but I'm guessing it was like that. Most likely that was a by-product of winning most things. 

On the other hand, you get to see the actual game pretty well on television, thanks to the production teams putting a lot of thought and experience into how to effectively broadcast a football match. Maybe we're not missing as much on television as you think. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Indy 3,283]

Just now, hogesar said:

I thought, perhaps wrongly, although it's from things i've read so i'll have to look back, that if you get sacked you're 'compensated' for the remainder of your contract. However, if you then take employment in that time, you don't need compensating, unless the figures are different then of course there's a remainder, as I think Sheff described.

Regardless, going off information online Smith was on approx £30k p/w and Farke apparently £10k p/w.

Sacking Farke for Smith was nothing to do with a 'cheap option', it was all a very expensive option.

As I said Hogs, I’m not in football but I’ve been in high management and own my own business so all I can lean on is normal life! Sacking someone means to terminate their contract, it doesn’t mean termination by mutual consent. I think this maybe where Sheff is correct, it would depend on the agreement! But if sacked then there’s no doubt a pre agreed termination clause in place in the managers contract, I can’t see why Norwich would need to pay anything to a manager out the door. If he’s still under some term of gardening leave it would no doubt take weeks to sort out the legalities of employment? I’m guessing!

[Indy 3,283]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I thought, perhaps wrongly, although it's from things i've read so i'll have to look back, that in football management, if you get sacked you're 'compensated' for the remainder of your contract. However, if you then take employment in that time, you don't need compensating, unless the figures are different then of course there's a remainder, as I think Sheff described.

Regardless, going off information online Smith was on approx £30k p/w and Farke apparently £10k p/w.

Sacking Farke for Smith was nothing to do with a 'cheap option', it was all a very expensive option.

Again it was as we don’t know what Smith is being paid do we? Are we still paying Farke? Or when we sacked him was his contract terminated and finances all paid in full?

[hogesar 9,606]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

As I said Hogs, I’m not in football but I’ve been in high management and own my own business so all I can lean on is normal life! Sacking someone means to terminate their contract, it doesn’t mean termination by mutual consent. I think this maybe where Sheff is correct, it would depend on the agreement! But if sacked then there’s no doubt a pre agreed termination clause in place in the managers contract, I can’t see why Norwich would need to pay anything to a manager out the door. If he’s still under some term of gardening leave it would no doubt take weeks to sort out the legalities of employment? I’m guessing!

Sorry, I don't disagree with any of that. My point was more that with a handsome pay-off it's not like Smith and Shakey would agree to come here on the cheap, and they certainly wouldn't have come here for a lower salary than we were paying Farke

[tea total 79]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So what have you learnt from the players body language? Let me guess: a lot are unhappy and snapping at each other? Might have something to do with frustration from losing lots of games. What about the management team? Do they look frustrated? Quiet? I'm guessing they're not looking content. Again, might have something to do with losing lots. 

I'm guessing you were going to games last championship season? What was the players' body language like? Was there lots of positivity between players? I wasn't there, but I'm guessing it was like that. Most likely that was a by-product of winning most things. 

On the other hand, you get to see the actual game pretty well on television, thanks to the production teams putting a lot of thought into and experience into how to effectively broadcast a football match. Maybe we're not missing as much on television as you think. 

You get to see more of the game looking away from the ball! Television only show around the area where the ball is. It's the work off the ball that is key at times. 

[Midlands Yellow 3,913]

Just now, hogesar said:

Sorry, I don't disagree with any of that. My point was more that with a handsome pay-off it's not like Smith and Shakey would agree to come here on the cheap, and they certainly wouldn't have come here for a lower salary than we were paying Farke

Those goal posts are moving rapidly by the minute. 

[Indy 3,283]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Sorry, I don't disagree with any of that. My point was more that with a handsome pay-off it's not like Smith and Shakey would agree to come here on the cheap, and they certainly wouldn't have come here for a lower salary than we were paying Farke

I don’t know I’m not privy to that info! 😉

[hogesar 9,606]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Those goal posts are moving rapidly by the minute. 

Your tedious, boring sniping has finally got to the stage where you can go on the ignore list. Congratulations, that's got to be an accolade for you.

[hogesar 9,606]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

I don’t know I’m not privy to that info! 😉

Neither am I, I'm going by probability / logic on that one, nothing more.

[Midlands Yellow 3,913]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Your tedious, boring sniping has finally got to the stage where you can go on the ignore list. Congratulations, that's got to be an accolade for you.

Sigh! You don’t like your made assumptions being pointed out do you! Gives it out but can’t take it. 

[Google Bot 3,255]

16 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

lots of bonuses mentioned which he won’t be getting!

"Not finishing 20th" - Cadbury's Flake.

[hogesar 9,606]

53 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Whilst asking Sheffield United, Leeds and Brentford, should I also ask them how hard they thought their second season would have been/will be had £250 million been spent on the squad since promotion?

After just managing to stay up the first season, they "only" spent £90 million to finish 11th in the Premier League. Many clubs have spent more and done significantly worse. Fulham spent £150 million on promotion just to get relegated, Everton have spent £500 million plus over seasons to be in a relegation battle. Leeds spent £100 million 20/21 and £55 million 21/22. 

It just seems convenient to ignore an 11th placed finish which is successful for a second season in the prem having spent £120 million a season (avg) or not.

[Nuff Said 5,078]

3 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

It's not specious because it doesn't fit in with your narrative.

If you are going to beat Farke over the head for his failure to get Norwich promoted in his first season, then you have to accept an analysis that you might not like when assessing Dean Smith.

The context of Farke's first season was that the wage budget had to be splashed and we needed to recoup more from transfers than we were able to spend. Brentford were in a period where their wage budget and spending power increased.

So, after finishing 5th under Warburton, Smith took over with Brentford in 11th. He got them to 9th, but failed to get close to the PPG total of the interim manager (Lee Carsley) he took over from. Maybe the damage was done before he arrived and the 28 games he was in charge for don't count? So let's just look at his first full season. He managed to get them to the lofty heights of 10th. Then 9th. Maybe Warburton just overachieved getting Brentford within a whisker of the Premier League and therefore it wasn't a failure on Smith's part to get them into the playoffs?

Well in that case, let's see what happened after Smith left (to join a club that were then 2 points behind Farke's Norwich and ended that season 17 points behind, despite a much higher wage budget and, on paper at least, superior squad)? Frank took them to an 11th placed finished before rocketing them to back-to-back 3rd placed finishes, the second of which culminating in promotion to the Premier League.

All pretty indicative of a decidedly average manager. Or is all that specious too?

And right back at you. Your narrative is that we shouldn’t have sacked Farke, and he somehow would have made a better fist of this season than Smith did. The evidence of one and a bit seasons indicates (but doesn’t prove) he couldn’t adapt a team with our resources to the Premier League. You have the evidence of Smith’s performance with different teams in different situations to make your point, which is no sort of proof either, we’d need access to time travel and a multiverse for that.
 

I don’t see the point of carrying on repeating our viewpoints, let’s agree to differ.

[Mella Yella 40]

Do you know what? I've lost interest in Norwich after more than half a century of supporting them. I think a lot of fans have as well. For me Smiths appointment has been as inspiring as a sack of potatoes, same with our signings. Its going to take something very special to get NCFC back on track, I don't see it myself.

[canarydan23 4,060]

46 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

And right back at you. Your narrative is that we shouldn’t have sacked Farke, and he somehow would have made a better fist of this season than Smith did. The evidence of one and a bit seasons indicates (but doesn’t prove) he couldn’t adapt a team with our resources to the Premier League. You have the evidence of Smith’s performance with different teams in different situations to make your point, which is no sort of proof either, we’d need access to time travel and a multiverse for that.
 

I don’t see the point of carrying on repeating our viewpoints, let’s agree to differ.

I've never claimed to have any "proof".

There is, however, a lot of evidence with which to form opinions. And I concede that plenty of that evidence suggests Webber was right to sack Farke. However, there is a much more substantial body of evidence at the time that suggests replacing him with Smith was a stupid appointment. And that body of evidence has only swelled between his appointment and the present day.

[Nuff Said 5,078]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I've never claimed to have any "proof".

There is, however, a lot of evidence with which to form opinions. And I concede that plenty of that evidence suggests Webber was right to sack Farke. However, there is a much more substantial body of evidence at the time that suggests replacing him with Smith was a stupid appointment. And that body of evidence has only swelled between his appointment and the present day.

My last word on the topic. On this thread at least.

 

The proof either way will be next season. The board have consistently shown they believe managers/coaches should be given time to prove themselves, so Smith and Shakes will be here, unless they jump for some reason. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

unless they jump for some reason

We can only hope. From what I've seen, Smith's Championship PB of 5th place doesn't look in much danger of being improved on. I suspect his average Championship final position of 8-9th would be a good bet. I know we've got a great squad for the Championship, but so did Villa and he could get a tune out of them sufficient to see them promoted automatically.

Edited May 17, 2022 by canarydan23

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,130]

It's widely acknowledged and accepted amoung our fans that our team is rubbish and the players individually aren't good enough yet for some reason the knives are also out for Smith? I don't get it. A team this bad with a bad manager would struggle to get 10 points. 

No manager in the world is capable of getting a team this low quality relative to their league that also has absolutely nothing in central midfield to play significantly better than they are or get many more points. Central midfield is crucial in the modern game and ours is mid table Championship standard and woefully physically inadequate across every player. Then you also factor in how we don't have a creative outlet who is suited to creating chances for our main striker, full backs who can't defend, relatively short and slow CB's and a team that of players as a whole that are so physically weak and fragile that they're always injured at some point and can't actually hold onto and shield a ball when teams press us. He's had an impossible job this year, it's a cliche to say this but you really can't judge him on this season, you have to let him get some of his own players in who are better suited to his style. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

It's widely acknowledged and accepted amoung our fans that our team is rubbish and the players individually aren't good enough yet for some reason the knives are also out for Smith? I don't get it. A team this bad with a bad manager would struggle to get 10 points. 

No manager in the world is capable of getting a team this low quality relative to their league that also has absolutely nothing in central midfield to play significantly better than they are or get many more points. Central midfield is crucial in the modern game and ours is mid table Championship standard and woefully physically inadequate across every player. Then you also factor in how we don't have a creative outlet who is suited to creating chances for our main striker, full backs who can't defend, relatively short and slow CB's and a team that of players as a whole that are so physically weak and fragile that they're always injured at some point and can't actually hold onto and shield a ball when teams press us. He's had an impossible job this year, it's a cliche to say this but you really can't judge him on this season, you have to let him get some of his own players in who are better suited to his style. 

If you're correct, why sack Farke? Particularly as it's also widely acknowledged that he didn't agree with the recruitment policy in the summer and did not get what he wanted from Webber.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,499]

3 hours ago, tea total said:

You get to see more of the game looking away from the ball! Television only show around the area where the ball is. It's the work off the ball that is key at times. 

I know full well you miss bits like that, but there's not enough difference for someone to smugly discount the opinions of fans who aren't a stone's throw from Norwich.

[Nuff Said 5,078]

38 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I know full well you miss bits like that, but there's not enough difference for someone to smugly discount the opinions of fans who aren't a stone's throw from Norwich.

Also to accuse someone of “ never going to games” when he has said more than once that he goes to several games a season at significant expense. But some people never miss a chance to pile on Lakey.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Nuff Said

[tea total 79]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I know full well you miss bits like that, but there's not enough difference for someone to smugly discount the opinions of fans who aren't a stone's throw from Norwich.

It wasn`t meant as being smug at all! I don`t discount any opinion whether I disagree with it or not! No offence intended whatsoever. And I actually said `at times` meaning that telly shows us some things that we can`t see. It depends what you`re looking for. Just my opinion 🙂

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by tea total

[Top corner 225]

You can now add Borussia Dortmund to the list of potential German destinations for Farke, after they've sacked their manager.

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Id lay money on the fact that Farke could get more out of our current team in the Championship than Bodger and Badger will. 

Firing Farke and replacing him with Smith was the biggest crime / mistake of the decade at this club. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Nexus_Canary

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

On 17/05/2022 at 14:41, Nuff Said said:

My last word on the topic. On this thread at least.

 

The proof either way will be next season. The board have consistently shown they believe managers/coaches should be given time to prove themselves, so Smith and Shakes will be here, unless they jump for some reason. 

Smith should be given the same time to prove his worth as Farke was given and lets not forget that Farke was not an instant success.

I'd hope that whilst giving us a competitive team for next year, Smith would be better placed to make us competitive, if we went up, something Farke failed at....

The biggest mistake of the decade was not backing Lambert!