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king canary

Evolution not revolution

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I think the Zimmermann conversation is one the club must be having. Down the pecking order in a list of in a list not the most talented central defenders and has been injured for a significant portion of the last 3 seasons. He seems like a good human being but there's still probably more value in brining in an up and coming young defender. Ideally somebody in the Godfrey frame.

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2 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said:

I think the Zimmermann conversation is one the club must be having. Down the pecking order in a list of in a list not the most talented central defenders and has been injured for a significant portion of the last 3 seasons. He seems like a good human being but there's still probably more value in brining in an up and coming young defender. Ideally somebody in the Godfrey frame.

To me it only makes sense if we have someone in house who we think can step up like Tomkins.

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Would keep Zimbo around, he won't be on high wages and yes he has injury problems, but he's also far too good to be a 4th choice CB at Championship level so it's a trade off, if we get another injury crisis and he's fit at the time I'd have no issue playing him at that level. Are we going to want to spend the money on another backup player? I think you'd struggle to find a player with his attributes who would also be happy to be 4th choice. Alternatively looking at youth, while Omobamidele has been a revelation with his composure, consistency and decision making, I don't like the idea of being forced to rely on youth in that particular position 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Does he?    I suspect we may well find out, personally think he will give us 100% effort but he still won't trap a bag of cement!     There's plenty of our fans on here lazily believing that we are dropping down to a poor league.   Well Sheffield United aren't finding it that easy are they?   Yes the gulf in class between the two leagues is massive and we got nowhere near bridging it.   We are now inferior by some distance not only in squad, in confidence and in a lack of playing style!.    All I am doing is giving my opinion, so oh come on what.    

So lets say this pans out  without major overhaul and Sargent and McLean and Lees-Melou do well and we get promoted how do we then bridge this 'gulf in class' again?     Can absolutely assure you that Sargent will never (trust me, never) be a Premier League star!.  There are fundamental reasons he won't, ones which for the life of me I can't believe the scouts didn't pick up on!     So what is the point of persevering with him (and others in the similar situation)!

Be interested to know how you think we will finally bridge this massive gulf?       

But this is no different to any other team that's promoted from the championship. We have a team of either proven championship winners or proven in the top two tiers of another country with age significantly on their side.

Bridging the gulf is exceptionally difficult no matter who you are and its why its typically 2 of the promoted teams who come back down. We have to sign 2 or 3 players who end up being Premier league level, get alot of luck and momentum on the way.

Further, Sheffield United go against your point rather than for it. They overspent in the prem,  had off field issues all season and an awful start saw them around 17th for the first half of the season but the quality difference is so stark that they were able to put a run in second half and finish in the playoffs.

Edited by hogesar

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11 minutes ago, king canary said:

To me it only makes sense if we have someone in house who we think can step up like Tomkins.

Certainly a big summer for Jonathan Tompkinson. Obviously his appearances on the first team bench have been forced but the fact he's the u23s captain at 18/19 is a good sign. That being said even if he's not considered ready I think I'd still be looking to sign a replacent for Zimmermann.

We were pretty aggressive with sales/releasing player last time around and I think more of that will be needed. Honestly I think we should go further and move some of the actual core but I doubt we will.

That being said we don't even know if Webber will be here so there could be a completely different mentality. Smith is very different to Farke too so maybe an older squad would fit more.

 

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Huge gap yes. If you look at the sides that stay up it's nearly always on momentum. Us under PL, Blades,Brentford, all sides who got enough points early doors to stay up. The menta side is huge and I think there is a good argument for a decent sized clear out

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Nora's Ghost said:

A surgeon will tell you that you sometimes have to cut things out in order to cure the whole.

 

Norwich City needs drastic surgery otherwise it will never get better.

 

 

I'd say it's the opposite. As a viable concern, Norwich is in far better shape than any club that isn't an established Premier League fixture. The problems are making the jump from a club with a squad that can reliably dominate the Championship to a club that can reliably contend in the Premier League. The idea that somehow that can be achieved by falling back to being a mid-table Championship club for several years is just plain daft. 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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I think with regard to the evolution vs revolution thing, if we are to come back to this league it needs to be with a staring XI that has very few of the current crop in. So if we bounce straight back and we achieve that I guess you could describe it as a revolution of sorts. Our problems this season partially stem from us not recruiting well enough going into our last championship season. Of those signed in summer 2020, none have proven themselves to be capable at stepping up to the PL. In fact, bar Gibson and Sorensen (who played out of position) not many of them had significant impacts on the championship campaign either. Giannoulis came in in January and fitted in pretty seamlessly however. When you look at it, in 19/20 the top 5 players with the most minutes for us were Aarons, Krul, Pukki, McLean and Godfrey. In 21/22 it's the 4 who are still at the club plus Hanley. Now I don't think those players were necessarily the big problems in our squads both those seasons, but it goes to show that we have failed to improve in other areas, as they've gone relatively unchallenged in their roles.

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3 minutes ago, repman said:

I think with regard to the evolution vs revolution thing, if we are to come back to this league it needs to be with a staring XI that has very few of the current crop in. So if we bounce straight back and we achieve that I guess you could describe it as a revolution of sorts. Our problems this season partially stem from us not recruiting well enough going into our last championship season. Of those signed in summer 2020, none have proven themselves to be capable at stepping up to the PL. In fact, bar Gibson and Sorensen (who played out of position) not many of them had significant impacts on the championship campaign either. Giannoulis came in in January and fitted in pretty seamlessly however. When you look at it, in 19/20 the top 5 players with the most minutes for us were Aarons, Krul, Pukki, McLean and Godfrey. In 21/22 it's the 4 who are still at the club plus Hanley. Now I don't think those players were necessarily the big problems in our squads both those seasons, but it goes to show that we have failed to improve in other areas, as they've gone relatively unchallenged in their roles.

I agree, and have made similar points before.

There is an interesting point here, in that we know that summer that both Buendia and Cantwell wanted to leave but were persuaded to stay. Now, both played important roles in promotion back to the premier league. One more than the other. Some people don't understand how you sell when promoted, so what if both had been sold then and more money invested in the squad in the championship rather than waiting to the premier league?

Chances are we wouldn't attract the profile of some of the players we signed last summer in Rashica, Lees-Melou for example. But they would have had a season at the tier below to adapt to the English game in preparation for the premier league. Guaranteed that players that came though, would be signing for that level of wage and probably cost less money without the added value being a premier league club seems to add.

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31 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'd say it's the opposite. As a viable concern, Norwich is in far better shape than any club that isn't an established Premier League fixture. The problems are making the jump from a club with a squad that can reliably dominate the Championship to a club that can reliably contend in the Premier League. The idea that somehow that can be achieved by falling back to being a mid-table Championship club for several years is just plain daft. 

To use a gardening analogy... sometimes a plant needs hard pruning to the ground if you want it to bloom and flourish. Just clipping the ends every year will leave it leggy and weak, and that's what is happening to the club.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Nora's Ghost said:

To use a gardening analogy... sometimes a plant needs hard pruning to the ground if you want it to bloom and flourish. Just clipping the ends every year will leave it leggy and weak, and that's what is happening to the club.

 

 

And sometimes if you hard prune the plant dies.

The core business of the club is extremely healthy; the problems of the club don't go beyond a lot of players not being up to premier League level. This won't be fixed by messing around with the club's administration; it'll be fixed by persistence and refining the approach to recruitment and development on the pitch.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

And sometimes if you hard prune the plant dies.

The core business of the club is extremely healthy; the problems of the club don't go beyond a lot of players not being up to premier League level. This won't be fixed by messing around with the club's administration; it'll be fixed by persistence and refining the approach to recruitment and development on the pitch.

I tend to differ. Your plan is simply a continuation of what has failed before, mine is to rebuild from the foundations up rather than chasing the yoyo system that takes the support for fools.

 

Each to our own however.

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6 hours ago, Monty13 said:

The only way we go by not getting promoted is backwards, at least in the short term. I’m amazed any supporters don’t see that.

Theres only 11 players on the pitch at any time and you need only a handful of weapons capable of scoring and creating goals. Spreading the money across two summers on another load of players makes no sense. We get two summers if we are promoted, so yes to me buying circa 3 quality players in each makes way more sense.

We need a squad capable of challenging for 17th, only way we do that is by spending money incredibly wisely IMO. McClean is the perfect example. Is he good PL player? No not at all (sorry Kenny). But when you need 5-6 central midfielders in the squad is he good enough that you’re not going to be able realistically significantly upgrade him without wasting money? Yes, good enough.

Your first paragraph…. I see that and plenty others do too.    You could say speculate to accumulate in a way but that’s exactly what we need to do.   You didn’t mention these many players you say are good enough or clarify good enough for what, the EFL or EPL?   Fact is either way is a gamble, a speculation, but yours is a route to the same again and mine is a route to better and proper development, a deeper squad of better players and a longer-term sustainable approach and better, back to a connection between the team and fans!
 

We can’t develop players or a playing style in the EPL, all we can do is hope the players we sign come good and do enough while we gamble on the next set of thumpings and more embarrassment nationally.
 

A £20m signing in that league represents something of a gamble, we couldn’t and wouldn’t pay those sums for one, let alone 3 and it would break up the wage structure potentially creating divisions.   In any event, you haven’t explained how we would end up with enough EPL quality that route (we currently have Krul, Gunn, Hanley just, Aaron’s, Rashica and Pukki or 6!    2, possibly 4 of those will move on soon and Pukki will be 34 next poss EPL season anyway.   Idah and Omobamidele may come through next but regardless there are no guarantees on any of them.

We end up with inadequate signings and loans to fill gaps that prevent the likes of Sorensen, Famewo, Sinani, Mumba and plenty of others from opportunity and development.    Worse still, all of these new signings and loans need time to settle in to Norwich, whatever style of play we have and the league, when we need them to hit the ground!  

…… and you’re amazed the supporters don’t see it!    What have you been watching in front of you all season!    
 

Factoring in all the above relevant issues, what are the realistic chances a couple of expensive signings make this current team competitive?

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13 hours ago, hogesar said:

But this is no different to any other team that's promoted from the championship. We have a team of either proven championship winners or proven in the top two tiers of another country with age significantly on their side.

Bridging the gulf is exceptionally difficult no matter who you are and its why its typically 2 of the promoted teams who come back down. We have to sign 2 or 3 players who end up being Premier league level, get alot of luck and momentum on the way.

Further, Sheffield United go against your point rather than for it. They overspent in the prem,  had off field issues all season and an awful start saw them around 17th for the first half of the season but the quality difference is so stark that they were able to put a run in second half and finish in the playoffs.

Not sure what your point is there Hoggy!   As for the highlighted part, we are different from most promoted sides in that we go up unprepared (too soon or sell not only our best player but the one that made the whole thing tick) and with little to spend, the later not being an issue necessarily.   This team of proven Championship winners did so off the back of the brilliance of Buendia and the guile of Skipp primarily and playing a style of football that is now flushed down the pan as it were!    Further, many have taken a significant confidence knock and most know now that the EPL is a step up they can’t cope with.   
 

In my view, without Emi particularly and Oli, we would not have made the playoffs last season.    Not only his goals and assists but he frightened opponents and had them changing tactics before games started!
 

Being proven in the Championship or the top two tiers elsewhere has been clearly shown to be insufficient in the EPL.   
 

Could you (or anyone) explain with justification how playing Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean, Dowell and Sargent next season is going to prepare us properly for promotion and how that pans out on promotion?    

We could have a much better squad with patience and opportunity, we probably have good enough players to step up but current first teamers are in the way!  

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15 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Not sure what your point is there Hoggy!   As for the highlighted part, we are different from most promoted sides in that we go up unprepared (too soon or sell not only our best player but the one that made the whole thing tick) and with little to spend, the later not being an issue necessarily.   This team of proven Championship winners did so off the back of the brilliance of Buendia and the guile of Skipp primarily and playing a style of football that is now flushed down the pan as it were!    Further, many have taken a significant confidence knock and most know now that the EPL is a step up they can’t cope with.   
 

In my view, without Emi particularly and Oli, we would not have made the playoffs last season.    Not only his goals and assists but he frightened opponents and had them changing tactics before games started!
 

Being proven in the Championship or the top two tiers elsewhere has been clearly shown to be insufficient in the EPL.   
 

Could you (or anyone) explain with justification how playing Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean, Dowell and Sargent next season is going to prepare us properly for promotion and how that pans out on promotion?    

We could have a much better squad with patience and opportunity, we probably have good enough players to step up but current first teamers are in the way!  

 

Such a good reasoned comment.

 

Skipp and Buendia got us promoted and Pukki was allowed to miss many chances because they kept on coming. From here on in I fear we will not have it so easy.

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39 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Not sure what your point is there Hoggy!   As for the highlighted part, we are different from most promoted sides in that we go up unprepared (too soon or sell not only our best player but the one that made the whole thing tick) and with little to spend, the later not being an issue necessarily.   This team of proven Championship winners did so off the back of the brilliance of Buendia and the guile of Skipp primarily and playing a style of football that is now flushed down the pan as it were!    Further, many have taken a significant confidence knock and most know now that the EPL is a step up they can’t cope with.   
 

In my view, without Emi particularly and Oli, we would not have made the playoffs last season.    Not only his goals and assists but he frightened opponents and had them changing tactics before games started!
 

Being proven in the Championship or the top two tiers elsewhere has been clearly shown to be insufficient in the EPL.   
 

Could you (or anyone) explain with justification how playing Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean, Dowell and Sargent next season is going to prepare us properly for promotion and how that pans out on promotion?    

We could have a much better squad with patience and opportunity, we probably have good enough players to step up but current first teamers are in the way!  

Ged, you have a belief that the players we currently have in the first team won’t develop and get any better (including the youngsters like Idah, Sargent and Tzolis) but if we play members of the academy for a couple of seasons, they will improve, and improve enough to be PL quality. It’s a nice idea, but there’s no evidence that it’ll happen.
 

Whereas we have seen what happens to relegated teams in the Championship who tweak their squad, rather than rip out all the saleable/too expensive players - they generally finish top six, if not top two.

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23 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Could you (or anyone) explain with justification how playing Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean, Dowell and Sargent next season is going to prepare us properly for promotion and how that pans out on promotion?    

We could have a much better squad with patience and opportunity, we probably have good enough players to step up but current first teamers are in the way!  

This rather ignores the reality of the modern game for a club like ours. Smith will now be planning to put together team for next season that Is capable of another promotion tilt. In a matter of weeks him and Shakey will be attempting to meld those players into a style to do the job. As the OP wrote this is always going to be more effective with Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean, Dowell and Sargent on board as proven players at this level, plus maybe a small number of additions to replace the loanees and possible one or other or both of Aarons and Rashica.

Football is a short term business, we get a poor start and the management team will be gone so they are not interested in what to do when we get promoted. If we had any EPL quality players they would leave for better/richer EPL clubs as soon as they get a chance. EPL Survival for a club like ours depends on momentum + a couple of additions + everything going right. Farke's first promotion was a massive overachievement, the second time was more about getting the job done well but with the pound shop Grealish rather unbalancing the longer term planning. Next time, who knows? Maybe the younger players will step up with a few old heads to "give the squad some help".

 

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48 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Not sure what your point is there Hoggy!   As for the highlighted part, we are different from most promoted sides in that we go up unprepared (too soon or sell not only our best player but the one that made the whole thing tick) and with little to spend, the later not being an issue necessarily.   This team of proven Championship winners did so off the back of the brilliance of Buendia and the guile of Skipp primarily and playing a style of football that is now flushed down the pan as it were!    Further, many have taken a significant confidence knock and most know now that the EPL is a step up they can’t cope with.   
 

In my view, without Emi particularly and Oli, we would not have made the playoffs last season.    Not only his goals and assists but he frightened opponents and had them changing tactics before games started!
 

Being proven in the Championship or the top two tiers elsewhere has been clearly shown to be insufficient in the EPL.   
 

Could you (or anyone) explain with justification how playing Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean, Dowell and Sargent next season is going to prepare us properly for promotion and how that pans out on promotion?    

We could have a much better squad with patience and opportunity, we probably have good enough players to step up but current first teamers are in the way!  

But if we didn't have Emi or Oli, we'd have signed someone else. They might not have been as good (incredibly hard to match those two, lets be honest) but I don't think we would have failed to make the playoffs.

We won the league comfortably. We were TWENTY-SEVEN points clear of 7th in the league, and had the best goal difference in the league. To say we wouldn't have made the play-offs is, in my opinion, based on very little.

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12 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But if we didn't have Emi or Oli, we'd have signed someone else. They might not have been as good (incredibly hard to match those two, lets be honest) but I don't think we would have failed to make the playoffs.

We won the league comfortably. We were TWENTY-SEVEN points clear of 7th in the league, and had the best goal difference in the league. To say we wouldn't have made the play-offs is, in my opinion, based on very little.

Hilariously naive.

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12 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Ged, you have a belief that the players we currently have in the first team won’t develop and get any better (including the youngsters like Idah, Sargent and Tzolis) but if we play members of the academy for a couple of seasons, they will improve, and improve enough to be PL quality. It’s a nice idea, but there’s no evidence that it’ll happen.
 

Whereas we have seen what happens to relegated teams in the Championship who tweak their squad, rather than rip out all the saleable/too expensive players - they generally finish top six, if not top two.

No Nuff, you're making assumptions there.   I've never said Idah or Tzolis won't develop, those are exactly who need some opportunity.   I am convinced Idah knows where the net is and I expect Tzolis has something about him (although I do fear this experience at his young age and away from home may have ruined his confidence and desire and he may be lost).   Hope I am wrong but when is he going to get an opportunity if Rowe and Springett have moved ahead of him?    Like I said in January, we should have given the lad back to PAOK for the rest of this season.    I haven't seen enough of Tzolis anyway to take a view.

Sargent is a different matter, he's had so much opportunity and none of it deserved in my view.   I look for talent and sadly, he doesn't look to be technically at the level we need.   Again, hope I am wrong but in my experience you can either trap a football regularly or you can't, he's shown nothing to suggest he can create, score or contribute sufficiently except I do recognise the lad gives 100% effort which is all we can ask.  Not his fault that he is selected to play.   I'd put the kit on if asked all day long!

I'll turn your last paragraph on its head.... we have seen what happens to unprepared teams who get promoted and aren't ready, twice in the last 3 years!   Going back your point, I would argue relegated teams go down mainly with debt, often with players who don't want to play at that level but who they can't offload and few go back up and stay in the Premier League.   Our case is different.  We are debt free, we have a development arm that means youngsters come through our system and get opportunity, (or should do) and we are also stable as a club.   We have time to develop better and improve.   I just think carrying on pursuing promotion when we don't have a side is asking for the same again and our model won't stand it because eventually the fans won't stand for it.    I would rather develop for 3 years than risk another season like this one. 

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17 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But if we didn't have Emi or Oli, we'd have signed someone else. They might not have been as good (incredibly hard to match those two, lets be honest) but I don't think we would have failed to make the playoffs.

We won the league comfortably. We were TWENTY-SEVEN points clear of 7th in the league, and had the best goal difference in the league. To say we wouldn't have made the play-offs is, in my opinion, based on very little.

We can disagree on that.    I was just arguing one point you made and stand by it, its based on my opinion of their impact.  We certainly would not have been in the top two and given your general reasoned approach on here I am sure you get that my point is a valid one if not the 27 points gap.   There's more to this debate above, than that and whilst I take your point, I still think Emi and Oli made that difference to us.   

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3 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

We can disagree on that.    I was just arguing one point you made and stand by it, its based on my opinion of their impact.  We certainly would not have been in the top two and given your general reasoned approach on here I am sure you get that my point is a valid one if not the 27 points gap.   There's more to this debate above, than that and whilst I take your point, I still think Emi and Oli made that difference to us.   

Buendia was with us that season because no one else wanted him, or at least at the price at which the deal could be done, even after he threw his toys. Skipp was with us because he was farmed out by Spurs the get experience. It gave us a great season but it is only with hindsight that, that close season could be seen as an auspicious start.

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30 minutes ago, BigFish said:

This rather ignores the reality of the modern game for a club like ours. Smith will now be planning to put together team for next season that Is capable of another promotion tilt. In a matter of weeks him and Shakey will be attempting to meld those players into a style to do the job. As the OP wrote this is always going to be more effective with Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean, Dowell and Sargent on board as proven players at this level, plus maybe a small number of additions to replace the loanees and possible one or other or both of Aarons and Rashica.

Football is a short term business, we get a poor start and the management team will be gone so they are not interested in what to do when we get promoted. If we had any EPL quality players they would leave for better/richer EPL clubs as soon as they get a chance. EPL Survival for a club like ours depends on momentum + a couple of additions + everything going right. Farke's first promotion was a massive overachievement, the second time was more about getting the job done well but with the pound shop Grealish rather unbalancing the longer term planning. Next time, who knows? Maybe the younger players will step up with a few old heads to "give the squad some help".

 

Any chance you could follow this through to its conclusion ...... say we get promoted with those you name, then what..... how do we replace them, (where do we get the money, do we loan players, will they fit in right away and hit the ground running like the others didn't)...  are you happy to gamble on the strong likelihood of another season like this?    Or gamble that these players don't actually get us promoted but have been in the way of us developing talent that could step up.... Sorensen did well yesterday yet again, we have Adshead, McAlear, Rowe, Omobamidele, Idah, Tzolis, Springett, McCullum, Mumba, Dickson-Peters, we need to get some young CDM's (and an experienced one) and develop them.   

None of your point lends itself to a sustainable place in the EPL since its based on fortune and short-termism.    That is at odds with the model so we are stuck at the moment in a merry go round that some of you don't want to get off.   

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2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Buendia was with us that season because no one else wanted him, or at least at the price at which the deal could be done, even after he threw his toys. Skipp was with us because he was farmed out by Spurs the get experience. It gave us a great season but it is only with hindsight that, that close season could be seen as an auspicious start.

Whats your point?  

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5 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Whats your point?  

 

7 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

None of your point lends itself to a sustainable place in the EPL since its based on fortune and short-termism.    That is at odds with the model so we are stuck at the moment in a merry go round that some of you don't want to get off.   

Rather answered you own question there. Elite football is based on short-termism this days. That is not at odds with the model, which is based on applying what small advantages we can leverage to increase the probability of success. No such thing as fortune.

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2 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Your first paragraph…. I see that and plenty others do too.    You could say speculate to accumulate in a way but that’s exactly what we need to do.   You didn’t mention these many players you say are good enough or clarify good enough for what, the EFL or EPL?   Fact is either way is a gamble, a speculation, but yours is a route to the same again and mine is a route to better and proper development, a deeper squad of better players and a longer-term sustainable approach and better, back to a connection between the team and fans!
 

We can’t develop players or a playing style in the EPL, all we can do is hope the players we sign come good and do enough while we gamble on the next set of thumpings and more embarrassment nationally.
 

A £20m signing in that league represents something of a gamble, we couldn’t and wouldn’t pay those sums for one, let alone 3 and it would break up the wage structure potentially creating divisions.   In any event, you haven’t explained how we would end up with enough EPL quality that route (we currently have Krul, Gunn, Hanley just, Aaron’s, Rashica and Pukki or 6!    2, possibly 4 of those will move on soon and Pukki will be 34 next poss EPL season anyway.   Idah and Omobamidele may come through next but regardless there are no guarantees on any of them.

We end up with inadequate signings and loans to fill gaps that prevent the likes of Sorensen, Famewo, Sinani, Mumba and plenty of others from opportunity and development.    Worse still, all of these new signings and loans need time to settle in to Norwich, whatever style of play we have and the league, when we need them to hit the ground!  

…… and you’re amazed the supporters don’t see it!    What have you been watching in front of you all season!    
 

Factoring in all the above relevant issues, what are the realistic chances a couple of expensive signings make this current team competitive?

If I list the players I think are good enough - to clarify I mean will be highly effective in the Championship and can contribute to a competitive squad in the PL - we just end up in a subjective debate about each, you’re already writing huge swathes with multiple questions.

You are saying what I and others are suggesting is a route to the same but yours is a route to better players? What’s the evidence of that?

Better players cost more money, if we aren’t a yo-yo club we have significantly less money, if we fail to get promoted better players want to leave. You can’t build a squad capable in the PL and hold them in the Championship, they won’t stay.

What we are doing is a long term approach it’s just super painful because we’ve got it so wrong last summer. We’ve upgraded the facilities, we’ve invested heavily in youth prospects and we’ve arguably increased the quality of the overall squad, however we massively failed to improve the first 11, it’s unarguably gone backwards from even last year. We can’t spend that money without the yo-yo.

We developed a great style under Farke and it was completely ineffective in the PL, because of the gulf. We were Man City equivalent in The Championship but in the PL we are equivalent of Peterborough in the Championship. I agree we need a style of play that is competitive in the PL but there’s only one place it’s tested as we’ve proven.

Players that are good enough develop in the PL, if not we should loan them out and play the system as it exists. Omobamidele is good enough to contribute, Idah is good enough, Aaarons was and is good enough, so were the Murphy’s, Lewis and Godfrey. If players aren’t good enough for the PL yet we loan them out to the Championship. Norwich don’t have to also be there.

As for your last question, yes I think there’s a good chance if we keep the majority of this squad together and add 3-4 signings of competing next time, but importantly the mentality and style of play needs to be right. But by competing I mean fighting for 17th and likely not making it, nothing more.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nora's Ghost said:

I tend to differ. Your plan is simply a continuation of what has failed before, mine is to rebuild from the foundations up rather than chasing the yoyo system that takes the support for fools.

 

Each to our own however.

If you fall back to being mid-table for several years then the only certain outcome is a big drop in the club's income, which only makes getting back into the premier League even harder.

We have a very simple economic problem that assembling a squad of proven premier League calibre players cost way more than the club can afford without jeopardising the club's existence.

We've gambled on higher risk players and come up empty this time, but ultimately every time we go up its a new chance and if we catch a break then we move onto the next level. Amy sort of collapse and resulting rebuild won't get rid of the underlying economic challenges though; it'll simply make them worse.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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1 hour ago, Nora's Ghost said:

Hilariously naive.

You are, but no need to go public on it. We already know from your posting history.

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If somebody were to offer me top 8 next season, challenging for a playoff place, I'd take it. Because I think we're miles away. 

It wasn't just Emi and Skipp last time, although they were a huge part, we had a style, and continuity with Farke. This time we're being dumped back into the championship with none of the above

The squad needs freshening up IMO. We need some winners and players with confidence. I look at our squad and see dejection and zero motivation. 

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