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king canary

Evolution not revolution

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Posted (edited)

I keep seeing this idea that the squad needs tearing down, total rebuild etc etc. I'm thinking the exact opposite at this point.

While our net spend has been (comparatively) low over the Webber era one of the hallmarks of his time here has been high levels of player churn.

Look at the sheer number of players who we've signed for the first team over his time (and these only include players signed for the first team)...

17/18- Hanley, Franke, Hernandez, Steipermann, Srebeny, Husband, Vrancic, Zimmerman, Watkins, Trybull, Gunn, Reed, Leitner- 13 total signings.

18/19- Marshall, Buendia, McLean, Passlack, Heise, Krul, Pukki, Rhodes- 8 total signings

19/20- Fahrmann, Byram, Amadou, Rupp, Drmic, Duda, Roberts- 7 total signings

20/21- Hugill, Placheta, Gibson, Giannoulis, Dowell, Sorenson, Skipp, Quintilla- 8 total signings

21/22- Rashica, Tzolis, Sargent, Gunn, Kabak, PLM, Normann, Williams, Gilmour- 9 total signings

So 45 players across 5 seasons, with at least 7 new signings coming in each season. So almost every season we're adding large numbers of new players to the squad.

This season we somewhat know what we've got- lots of players who are good enough for the top of the Championship but not for the Premier League. We need to look to find gems who can not only help this season but may also have the potential to step up if we go back up in key areas. We're not going to find 8 or 9 of those players in one summer in the Championship and it would be foolish to try. We'd be much better suited to helping our core of Championship players by adding two or three quality new additions rather than another scattergun window. Don't throw the baby (in this case players like McLean, Gibson, Dowell) out with the bathwater.

Edited by king canary
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17 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

I would argue a lot of them aren’t good enough for the top of the championship

I think you'd struggle to back that up.

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21 minutes ago, king canary said:

I keep seeing this idea that the squad needs tearing down, total rebuild etc etc. I'm thinking the exact opposite at this point.

While our net spend has been (comparatively) low over the Webber era one of the hallmarks of his time here has been high levels of player churn.

Look at the sheer number of players who we've signed for the first team over his time (and these only include players signed for the first team)...

17/18- Hanley, Franke, Hernandez, Steipermann, Srebeny, Husband, Vrancic, Zimmerman, Watkins, Trybull, Gunn, Reed, Leitner- 13 total signings.

18/19- Marshall, Buendia, McLean, Passlack, Heise, Krul, Pukki, Rhodes- 8 total signings

19/20- Fahrmann, Byram, Amadou, Rupp, Drmic, Duda, Roberts- 7 total signings

20/21- Hugill, Placheta, Gibson, Giannoulis, Dowell, Sorenson, Skipp, Quintilla- 8 total signings

21/22- Rashica, Tzolis, Sargent, Gunn, Kabak, PLM, Normann, Williams, Gilmour- 9 total signings

So 45 players across 5 seasons, with at least 7 new signings coming in each season. So almost every season we're adding large numbers of new players to the squad.

This season we somewhat know what we've got- lots of players who are good enough for the top of the Championship but not for the Premier League. We need to look to find gems who can not only help this season but may also have the potential to step up if we go back up in key areas. We're not going to find 8 or 9 of those players in one summer in the Championship and it would be foolish to try. We'd be much better suited to helping our core of Championship players by adding two or three quality new additions rather than another scattergun window. Don't throw the baby (in this case players like McLean, Gibson, Dowell) out with the bathwater.

We have space for four without upsetting any balance. And if Aarons and/or Rashica go, then we have even more room. We will need a big squad and we can afford it.

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It's a tricky one. Individually they are prob top six champs level but as a team I'm not so sure at the moment. Spine needs looking at. We can get away with Gibson and Hanley in the champs. Omo to get some more experience and hopefully to be the key defender once (if) we get back up. Midfield is the big issue. All of our CMs can hold their own at champs level but there is no system (who stays and cleans up in front of the defence?!) and they are woefully short of PL quality. We can bang on about it forever but without a ball winning midfielder we are lost. Id be inclined to get in two strong midfielders and have them as the double pivot, building the team around them. I'll no doubt be proved wrong but you shouldn't be messing with the shape or spine of your side when you go up. You use momentum from champs, the same system that players know and aim to get some extra quality to get the ball in the net - wingers, striker or the number ten.  Players that are more individual in outlook and position.  Once and if you stay up, then can gradually develop the spine introducing better players. 

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20 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Fixed it for you.

On average, how many times a day do you do this unoriginal meme?

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I do like the strange position that some of the fanbase are in right now where the first team squad is lower champs/league 1 standard but Hernandez and Sinani are going to come in and dramatically improve us.

The known quantities in our squad are good enough for the top end of the Championship if their minds are in the right place. The ones we haven't seen in the Championship have had decent careers in the top flights of France and Germany. Tzolis feels like the only real wildcard in the squad to me although going by his early career he could be the x factor we need.

To be honest I think it will be another summer of 8+ players being added. I thought about it in another thread and my conclusion was that we'll need a new right back, assuming Aarons leaves going into the season with Mumba and Byram would be too risky. I think Zimmermann's time is probably up so a new Central defender will be needed. Central midfield shoul dbe our busiest position, loans returning and Rupp leaving will mean we only have McLean and PLM. This part of rectruitment will be by far the most important, creativity and steel needed. Striker, and goalkeeper probably stay the same. i didn't evem make a prediction on winger as we have so many of them.

I'd be all for a culling of (most of) the core that have been relegated twice but I can't see it happening.

 

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15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

We have space for four without upsetting any balance. And if Aarons and/or Rashica go, then we have even more room. We will need a big squad and we can afford it.

We already have quite a big squad and that is before you factor in the younger players and those on loan.

I assume by the four you mean the loanees? If so I don't see any need to sign anyone to replace Kabak or Williams- Kabak barely played this season and we've already got 4 established central defenders before you factor in Tomkins who has made the bench recently and Sorenson as a depth option. For Willaims we've got McCallum coming back from back to back successful championship loans.

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13 minutes ago, Canario said:

Id be inclined to get in two strong midfielders and have them as the double pivot, building the team around them.

There is a parallel universe where we signed Andrich from Union Berlin and Hamer from  Coventry in the summer, allowing Farke to do exactly this in a 4-2-3-1.

Norwich fans in that universe are now looking forward to another Prem season next year. We got Billy Gilmour.

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1 minute ago, Terminally Yellow said:

 

6g52jv.jpg

The weapons grade cringetonium eminating from this guy…

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10 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

The weapons grade cringetonium eminating from this guy…

He's just granddad on facebook. You're the 35 year old that still lives at home and spends his nights frequenting 4chan and the asmr category on twitch.

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Just now, KeiranShikari said:

He's just granddad on facebook. You're the 35 year old that still lives at home and spends his nights frequenting 4chan and the asmr category on twitch.

Nobody even noticed you were here, have a think about that.

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I think there's a strong argument for quality over quantity however the changing dynamic this season is we have a new manager who seems to be making noises about less technically gifted players in favour of physicality and athleticism. I don't see that in the current squad?

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18 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said:

I do like the strange position that some of the fanbase are in right now where the first team squad is lower champs/league 1 standard but Hernandez and Sinani are going to come in and dramatically improve us.

The known quantities in our squad are good enough for the top end of the Championship if their minds are in the right place. The ones we haven't seen in the Championship have had decent careers in the top flights of France and Germany. Tzolis feels like the only real wildcard in the squad to me although going by his early career he could be the x factor we need.

To be honest I think it will be another summer of 8+ players being added. I thought about it in another thread and my conclusion was that we'll need a new right back, assuming Aarons leaves going into the season with Mumba and Byram would be too risky. I think Zimmermann's time is probably up so a new Central defender will be needed. Central midfield shoul dbe our busiest position, loans returning and Rupp leaving will mean we only have McLean and PLM. This part of rectruitment will be by far the most important, creativity and steel needed. Striker, and goalkeeper probably stay the same. i didn't evem make a prediction on winger as we have so many of them.

I'd be all for a culling of (most of) the core that have been relegated twice but I can't see it happening.

See that's interesting because I think Byram and Mumba is fine. I also think Sorenson could double up in defence, so provided we keep Hanley, Omo, Gibson, I would be tempted to bring in the young American lad who has been training with the first team; Tomkinson is it? Not sure I've got that right. Dimi and McCallum is probably a capable left flank too.

For me we need at least three midfielders (one defensive, one creative, one more box to box) and I would be inclined to consider a wide player too, given how poorly ours have performed, particularly one with pace. I wouldn't be surprised to see Onel Hernandez kept around next season. 

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10 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said:

He's just granddad on facebook. You're the 35 year old that still lives at home and spends his nights frequenting 4chan and the asmr category on twitch.

...grandson? Is that you? 

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40 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

There is a parallel universe where we signed Andrich from Union Berlin and Hamer from  Coventry in the summer, allowing Farke to do exactly this in a 4-2-3-1.

Norwich fans in that universe are now looking forward to another Prem season next year. We got Billy Gilmour.

What a signing Hamer would be, send Todd to Coventry could be an option. 

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5 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I think there's a strong argument for quality over quantity however the changing dynamic this season is we have a new manager who seems to be making noises about less technically gifted players in favour of physicality and athleticism. I don't see that in the current squad?

In Smith's latest presser he spoke about creativity and replacing the numbers that Buendia put up last time. So I wouldn't expect us to be rocking up to the Champiosnhip with a team of destroyers next season.

 

7 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

See that's interesting because I think Byram and Mumba is fine. I also think Sorenson could double up in defence, so provided we keep Hanley, Omo, Gibson, I would be tempted to bring in the young American lad who has been training with the first team; Tomkinson is it? Not sure I've got that right. Dimi and McCallum is probably a capable left flank too.

For me we need at least three midfielders (one defensive, one creative, one more box to box) and I would be inclined to consider a wide player too, given how poorly ours have performed, particularly one with pace. I wouldn't be surprised to see Onel Hernandez kept around next season. 

Byram and Mumba mght be fine but I wouldn't trust Byram's body or Mumba's defensive capabilities over a long stretch. From what I've seen of Bali Mumba I also wouldn't be surprised if we see him being used further forward long term.

If the youngsters training with the first team are ready, then great. Although I think the central defender (Tompkinson?) will be 5th choice if any. To me it would just make sense to sign an athletic, quick cb to replace Zimmermann.

Left back, I agree. I'd love to see Giannoulis truly given the shirt and McCallum has been good whilst not injued. I could see us Cashing in on Giannoulis though if there was interest.

I took a pretty bold prediction for the midfield in that we sell Sorensen and don't reup Rupp. As much as I like Sorensen I think he's too passive for Smith's liking (And Farke's really) although I suppose the fact he's so versatile might swing it towards keeping.

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Judging by his comments I wonder if he’s contemplating changing to a 3-4-1-2 next season. He wants to play 2 up top and to bring in a new creative midfielder. He’s not been impressed by our wingers numbers so maybe he’s cutting his losses with them. 

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Just now, vlad666 said:

Judging by his comments I wonder if he’s contemplating changing to a 3-4-1-2 next season. He wants to play 2 up top and to bring in a new creative midfielder. He’s not been impressed by our wingers numbers so maybe he’s cutting his losses with them. 

Not a bad shout, this.

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

We already have quite a big squad and that is before you factor in the younger players and those on loan.

I assume by the four you mean the loanees? If so I don't see any need to sign anyone to replace Kabak or Williams- Kabak barely played this season and we've already got 4 established central defenders before you factor in Tomkins who has made the bench recently and Sorenson as a depth option. For Willaims we've got McCallum coming back from back to back successful championship loans.

However many you have, its never enough. We found that out to our cost.

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17 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

However many you have, its never enough. We found that out to our cost.

When? I don't think our relegation was caused by having too small a squad.

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2 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

That reminds me of myself because I evolve but I don't revolve. 

You don't want another Chris Evans on your hands...

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1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

You don't want another Chris Evans on your hands...

I'm your man.

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I agree King Canary. Though I suspect it'll be the core of the squad that doesn't change much rather than the squad itself. It's large at the moment.

GK: Krul, Gunn, McGovern and then several youngsters.
CB: Hanley, Gibson, Zimmermann and Omobamidele with Tomkinson having been involved with the squad and Bushiri and Famewo out on loan.
RB: Aarons, Mumba, Byram.
LB: Giannoulis, McCallum.
CM: Lees-Melou, Sorensen, McLean, Rupp (out of contract).
Wide/AM: Cantwell, Dowell, Placheta, Hernandez, Rashica, Tzolis, Springett, Rowe, Dennis, Josh Martin and possibly Sinani.
STR: Pukki, Hugill, Idah, Sargent.

I suspect we'll see some trimming on the periphery. I'm not sure how we can't. There is no way we can facilitate all of those wide/AM players. You'd have to suspect that some will be loaned out again next season as they are still young. 

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6 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

I would argue a lot of them aren’t good enough for the top of the championship

Most of our squad is full of either championship winners or proven in alternate country leagues often relative to the championship.

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