Is the Championship our natural home?

[nutty nigel 7,509]

1 minute ago, kdncfc said:

Just because Ipswich are in League 1 what makes you think we'd end up there with new owners? it's just as likely to happen under the current ownership.

I haven't said we would end up there with new owners. Where did that come from?

You said our owners were resistant to change and I pointed out they are not. You then admired 'the balls' of a club stagnating in league one compared with our club constantly trying to improve to compete at the top table. 

Chucking it all in on a whim would be a huge gamble for us where we are. No brainer for the binners where they are.

[kdncfc 27]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

After so many visits to the prem we should have a ground with at least 35,000 capacity so we can grow the fanbase and revenues accordingly. Similar sized clubs like Wolves, Palace, Southampton and maybe even Fulham growing their fan bases. Ours will start to shrink because of our restricted capacity. 

Spot on, even that shower of ****e down the road have a stadium capacity of 30k which in fairness is falling apart but apparently the new owners are tidying it up a bit.

[Midlands Yellow 3,929]

8 minutes ago, kdncfc said:

At least I'm consistent, however much some don't like to accept change the time is getting close where a change in ownership will happen.

Exactly this, deep down the reality is kicking in and it’s too daunting to handle for some. 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

3 minutes ago, kdncfc said:

Spot on, even that shower of ****e down the road have a stadium capacity of 30k which in fairness is falling apart but apparently the new owners are tidying it up a bit.

Still using that stick so many years later after all that's happened...

[kdncfc 27]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

I haven't said we would end up there with new owners. Where did that come from?

You said our owners were resistant to change and I pointed out they are not. You then admired 'the balls' of a club stagnating in league one compared with our club constantly trying to improve to compete at the top table. 

Chucking it all in on a whim would be a huge gamble for us where we are. No brainer for the binners where they are.

You haven't said that but I get the feeling you don't want to change because you think we'd be more likely to end up there.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Just now, kdncfc said:

You haven't said that but I get the feeling you don't want to change because you think we'd be more likely to end up there.

No that's not what I think.

 

[Mullet 293]

13 hours ago, Bradwell canary said:

It seems that after so many attempts to survive in the PL, as a self funding club, we simply stand no chance at all of achieving it.

Simply it can’t be done……ever.

we must be the only team this season in the PL with no debt. Some clubs have massive debt, often to their owners. Our owners simply do not have the funds to underwrite that type of ownership.

So next season we will be back to perhaps our rightful place. However that in turn will be a far more enjoyable experience for the fans.

 

Without new owners it is virtually impossible for us to establish as a PL team. My biggest problem is how far off we are when we get there. It would at least be nice to stay up for one or two seasons like Leeds, Sheff Utd Brentford have done. We just embarrass ourselves each time. Other clubs and the media think were are an unambitious bunch of bank robbers 

[norfolkngood 1,086]

11 minutes ago, Mullet said:

Without new owners it is virtually impossible for us to establish as a PL team. My biggest problem is how far off we are when we get there. It would at least be nice to stay up for one or two seasons like Leeds, Sheff Utd Brentford have done. We just embarrass ourselves each time. Other clubs and the media think were are an unambitious bunch of bank robbers 

We need investment and that will most likely only come if Delia sells 

it is a Gamble do you get Marcus Evans or do you get a Leicester type owner

i think in modern football it is a gamble you have to take self funding is ok with PL money coming in will not be so fun after that stops

 

[Big O 225]

2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Our owners are some of the leasy wealthy in the championship let alone premier league...we've been able to bpunce betweeb the 2 leagues in the last decade because we've managed to get promoted after relegation before the parachute payment has run out.

If we dont bounce back within the first 2 or 3 seasons of relegation I fear we might find our natural home to be mid lower championship

That’s how I see it. Without the premier parachute money then we are mid table championship at best. However we have with our youth system given ourselves a decent chance to produce regular sellable assets to augment our income and keep us competitive 

[TheBaldOne66 681]

11 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Yes. By that token Liverpool and Man City are stagnating.

 

 

You really don’t do debate very well when people dare to have a different point of view to yours do you? 
 

For once get off your canary tinted glasses and understand peoples concerns instead of blindly batting them away like you are the clubs mouthpiece against anyone who dares to say things aren’t right!

People are allowed to be concerned at how things are currently, but you won’t hear a bad thing said against the club will you? 
 

If things were as great as you think we wouldn’t have had two consecutive embarrassments in the top flight would we? ( no doubt your response will be but we’ve won the championship the last two times we’ve been there 🙈)

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

What the people who think a relegation will lead to happy times need to ponder is that without parachute payments we lose our edge in the championship. Then the fact that our owner’s wealth is now actually on a par with Shrewsbury town will come home to roost. Miss out on promotion this time and we might suddenly remember just how close to doing an Ipswich we were before Lady Luck gifted us Emi and Teemu. 
 

It isn’t that we love bashing the board that some of us are criticism of the ownership - but because we are so dependent on premiership money it’s concerning. Lose the windfall and we could be Royally screwed 

[BigFish 1,986]

9 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

You really don’t do debate very well when people dare to have a different point of view to yours do you? 
 

For once get off your canary tinted glasses and understand peoples concerns instead of blindly batting them away like you are the clubs mouthpiece against anyone who dares to say things aren’t right!

People are allowed to be concerned at how things are currently, but you won’t hear a bad thing said against the club will you? 
 

If things were as great as you think we wouldn’t have had two consecutive embarrassments in the top flight would we? ( no doubt your response will be but we’ve won the championship the last two times we’ve been there 🙈)

Fans feel down during relegation seasons, that is the way of football. That doesn't make hyperbolic pessimism sensible. It doesn't make magical thinking solutions and more likely to happen. It is just one difficult season, w for very club outside have had them before and we will have them again. It is the nature of being a football supporter.

[BigFish 1,986]

7 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Miss out on promotion this time and we might suddenly remember just how close to doing an Ipswich we were before Lady Luck gifted us Emi and Teemu.

Lol

Here we go again, every successful transfer is down to luck. Every failure is incompetence.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Lol

Here we go again, every successful transfer is down to luck. Every failure is incompetence.

There is an element of luck in every transfer. The less money you have the more you need each one to come off. So yes - I would argue signing Pukki on a free was pretty fortunate and his success couldn’t have been predicted on prior form. Same with Emi to a degree- or other clubs would have snapped him up. Credit to the recruitment team- but let’s set aside those two against the failures which are many and how else but luck would you describe it? Or would you say the last two premiership campaigns are master classes in astute dealing? 

[duke63 541]

So many people use the word 'investment' but its not investment, its just someone with more money than sense chucking cash ( in some cases that they don't actually have) at a football club hoping to buy some success.

The problem is that 'investing' £50 million in the team becomes a constant just to stand still, it does not guarantee success on any level. Its why many owners suddenly stop putting money in because they realise that they have to do it every season, its not a one off. ( See Wolves)

Norwich will never be a top six club with football as it is now because the club does not have the fanbase nor the media love-in that is needed to elevate a club onto the world TV stage and thus bring in a wealthy benefactor and with the imminent restrictions on wages to turnover and the independent Government appointed body to oversee English football, things are likely to change in a big way in the coming years.

[Mason 47 1,373]

Opens thread

'At least Ipswich are trying something'

Closes thread 😅

 

[BigFish 1,986]

56 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

There is an element of luck in every transfer. The less money you have the more you need each one to come off. So yes - I would argue signing Pukki on a free was pretty fortunate and his success couldn’t have been predicted on prior form. Same with Emi to a degree- or other clubs would have snapped him up. Credit to the recruitment team- but let’s set aside those two against the failures which are many and how else but luck would you describe it? Or would you say the last two premiership campaigns are master classes in astute dealing? 

No such thing as luck. Transfer dealing is an Art rather than a Science and there is an ever present probablity of failure. Money helps in reducing the risk, but can never eradicate it. The skill is to increase the probability of success. But it is rediculously one-eyed to opportion successful transfers to "luck", and unsuccessful failures to systemic failures at the club.

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

but because we are so dependent on premiership money it’s concerning.

? We gained promotion in 18-19 without parachute payments, but failed in the two previous seasons with them.

How does this fit your hypothesis?

[Badger 2,405]

In answer to the original question and ignoring the question of owner's wealth which doesn't make much difference in the vast majority of cases, I would say that we are naturally a yo yo club!

Our current financial management, however, leaves us in a good position to improve upon this as we do not have debt as a drag cf Palace and Southampton, who had both recently shed their debt through administration).

Overall position 2000s 32nd, average position 30.5

Edited May 13, 2022 by Badger
Changed an average to an overall

[Badger 2,405]

Overall position 2010s, shows significant improvement. (Average position 21.4)

I guess average position 2020s is so far 20th but overall position may be higher.

 

 

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Our natural home will only ever be as high as the level of investment in the club. We are lucky we’ve been up and down so much to be fair compared to other so called giant clubs down in the lower leagues. Look at Sunderland and Sheff Wed struggling to get out of league 1 

[Badger 2,405]

3 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Our natural home will only ever be as high as the level of investment in the club. We are lucky we’ve been up and down so much to be fair compared to other so called giant clubs down in the lower leagues. Look at Sunderland and Sheff Wed struggling to get out of league 1 

Both of which have had massive "investment." I haven't got the time to do it - but might be a good project for any stat/ finance students out there, but I suspect that the the relationship between external finance (loans - either director's or banks)  and subsequent success on the pitch may even be an inverse correlation!

[Badger 2,405]

1990s - overall position + mean position both 21st.

[For the future 65]

Yes 

[Badger 2,405]

1980s - wipes a fond tear from the corner of his - the Golden days."

Source of data for those interested:

http://alltimeleaguetable.co.uk/

[nutty nigel 7,509]

2 hours ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

You really don’t do debate very well when people dare to have a different point of view to yours do you? 
 

For once get off your canary tinted glasses and understand peoples concerns instead of blindly batting them away like you are the clubs mouthpiece against anyone who dares to say things aren’t right!

People are allowed to be concerned at how things are currently, but you won’t hear a bad thing said against the club will you? 
 

If things were as great as you think we wouldn’t have had two consecutive embarrassments in the top flight would we? ( no doubt your response will be but we’ve won the championship the last two times we’ve been there 🙈)

You're the master debater on here. I am marvelling how you can post both sides of the debate yourself. You have no need for an opponent.

Don't get angry now...

[Badger 2,405]

So, looking at the historical data of the last 4 decades, only one would see is as an "established" Premier league club.

Our absolute peak on the field was the early 1990s but the financial cost of this saw us decline in the later 1990s and 2000s. Since then we have stage something of a recovery and the 2010s was our most successful decade since the 1980s. The 2020s have only just started but our overall position is probably in the top 20, I'd guesstimate, although our average position would be 20th.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

24 minutes ago, Badger said:

Both of which have had massive "investment." I haven't got the time to do it - but might be a good project for any stat/ finance students out there, but I suspect that the the relationship between external finance (loans - either director's or banks)  and subsequent success on the pitch may even be an inverse correlation!

I doubt either have a six million pound swimming pool 😂

[hogesar 9,618]

2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

There is an element of luck in every transfer. The less money you have the more you need each one to come off. So yes - I would argue signing Pukki on a free was pretty fortunate and his success couldn’t have been predicted on prior form. Same with Emi to a degree- or other clubs would have snapped him up. Credit to the recruitment team- but let’s set aside those two against the failures which are many and how else but luck would you describe it? Or would you say the last two premiership campaigns are master classes in astute dealing? 

You're talented in your ability to tie yourself in knots. If those were lucky transfers then the 'failures' weren't failures were they? They were just unlucky.

 

2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

What the people who think a relegation will lead to happy times need to ponder is that without parachute payments we lose our edge in the championship. Then the fact that our owner’s wealth is now actually on a par with Shrewsbury town will come home to roost. Miss out on promotion this time and we might suddenly remember just how close to doing an Ipswich we were before Lady Luck gifted us Emi and Teemu. 
 

It isn’t that we love bashing the board that some of us are criticism of the ownership - but because we are so dependent on premiership money it’s concerning. Lose the windfall and we could be Royally screwed 

I don't think that's true at all unless you've been living under a rock.

With the new EFL regulations due to come in, Transfers and wages cannot exceed 70% of it's revenue. If that's the case, being debt free, having one of the better attendances in the Championship (even with our 'expensive' season tickets), having one of the strongest commercial platforms in the Championship, would make us one of the favourites still, and in a powerful position.

[Badger 2,405]

7 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

I doubt either have a six million pound swimming pool 😂

I understand that Sunderland's training facility is good but I agree.

I doubt that they have invested as much in the player development infrastructure as we have. A lot of the debt they acquired was spent buying and paying players that took them down.