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Dean Coneys boots

Tzolis should start

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14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Yes and no, I don't think it's a bad idea to get one if there's a shortage in the team and the market for buying players is a bit too pricey, so to have them as a squad player. Wouldn't build a first team with them though, as our Skipp-sized hole on promotion made abundantly clear (and we probably kiboshed Lungi's development a bit as well).

I instigated the Skipp was a mistake debate!    Our model doesn’t work with loans, if there is a shortage in our team we need to fill it with our own players so they get experience and develop and we have future options and a big enough competitive squad.     Consequently we don’t have any room or time to develop other teams players.    If the big hole left by Skipp doesn’t tell fans that, then they are in cloud cuckoo land.

Sadly, I fear the club will chase its tail, desperate for promotion at the expense of developing a good enough squad that could compete.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I instigated the Skipp was a mistake debate!    Our model doesn’t work with loans, if there is a shortage in our team we need to fill it with our own players so they get experience and develop and we have future options and a big enough competitive squad.     Consequently we don’t have any room or time to develop other teams players.    If the big hole left by Skipp doesn’t tell fans that, then they are in cloud cuckoo land.

Sadly, I fear the club will chase its tail, desperate for promotion at the expense of developing a good enough squad that could compete.

It was a mistake in terms of building a homogenous, drilled team. It wasn't a mistake in terms of putting extra cash into the club and giving us a bigger budget with which to try and buy better and get a better team out of it if it gelled quickly enough. If we'd stayed up this year due to strong performances from Normann and Gilmour, we'd all be hailing Webber's movements as an absolute masterstroke. We were still optimistic about what was done at the start of the season, hence the largely positive tone about the business carried out.

The strategy was absolutely sound. The execution fell short as recruitment fell short.

Sort of agree with the basic premise of your argument but there's one massive caveat I think your stance appears to miss, namely that promoting youngsters just for the sake of such can be counter-productive if they're actually not quite ready. As Garry Nelson wrote in Left Foot In The Grave, the trick is to give youngsters positive experience and indeed knocks to their confidence can set them back months.

This is where we may well miss Farke in the medium to long term. His judgement there was absolutely impeccable.

Edited by TheGunnShow

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

The difference being that Bernard Hinault performed when he had to even if he did not train well and it is that which he was judged on.

In a similar way, regardless of how Tzolis trains, let him be judged on how he performs and I think he has been. He has shown very little to make either Farke or Smith want to start him.

Personally, if we paid £10m for him I would be happy to receive £5m now and cut our losses.

 

He's played 327 minutes in the Premier League, half of that in chunks of 20 minutes or less. That's not a great deal to judge him on. It took Iwan Roberts 3,270 minutes before he became the player who would become a club legend.

I'm not going to sit here and say Tzolis has looked good in his Premier League appearances, he quite clearly hasn't. But I'm also not going to say that a player who arrived here from a foreign country AS A TEENAGER, might need a little bit more than 327 minutes before he can adapt to the level he's playing at. That's barely more than three and a half games.

Edited by canarydan23

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4 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

He's played 327 minutes in the Premier League, half of that in chunks of 20 minutes or less. That's not a great deal to judge him on. It took Iwan Roberts 3,270 minutes before he became the player who would become a club legend.

I'm not going to sit here and say Tzolis has looked good in his Premier League appearances, he quite clearly hasn't. But I'm also not going to say that a player who arrived here from a foreign country AS A TEENAGER, might need a little bit more than 327 minutes before he can adapt to the level he's playing at. That's barely more than three and a half games.

I think that's totally fair. The problem is if youth products like Rowe and Springett are showing more in training then Tzolis doesn't deserve to play ahead of them just because he's also a teenager, or because we paid money for him, or because he's come from a different country. Football is cut-throat and it's really good to see Smith, like Farke, showing some faith in our academy products - even if it goes against the financial outlay the club has made on a player like Tzolis.

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3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think that's totally fair. The problem is if youth products like Rowe and Springett are showing more in training then Tzolis doesn't deserve to play ahead of them just because he's also a teenager, or because we paid money for him, or because he's come from a different country. Football is cut-throat and it's really good to see Smith, like Farke, showing some faith in our academy products - even if it goes against the financial outlay the club has made on a player like Tzolis.

Absolutely, but playing devil's advocate, it needs to work the other way too. An Academy product shouldn't get further up the pecking order than a player with arguably more ability or potential because they've gone through the Academy (unless we're in a situation where we're playing dead rubbers, then you can be a bit more pragmatic).

I think Tzolis should stay, get a good preseason in and plenty of minutes of game time during that preseason, and I've got a sneaking suspicion he may become an integral part of the team for us in the Championship. I could be wrong and he'll never carve a career in a Norwich shirt and he'll take his place among RvW and Naismith as a big money flop.

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4 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Absolutely, but playing devil's advocate, it needs to work the other way too. An Academy product shouldn't get further up the pecking order than a player with arguably more ability or potential because they've gone through the Academy (unless we're in a situation where we're playing dead rubbers, then you can be a bit more pragmatic).

I think Tzolis should stay, get a good preseason in and plenty of minutes of game time during that preseason, and I've got a sneaking suspicion he may become an integral part of the team for us in the Championship. I could be wrong and he'll never carve a career in a Norwich shirt and he'll take his place among RvW and Naismith as a big money flop.

I fully agree with the second paragraph. I don't personally think he'll make it but he was highly-rated before coming here and deserves a proper pre-season to try and force his way in.

We don't know of course, if Rowe or Springett have more or less potential than Tzolis but i'd argue both have shown a bit more than Tzolis in their even-more-limited minutes on the pitch.

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38 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I fully agree with the second paragraph. I don't personally think he'll make it but he was highly-rated before coming here and deserves a proper pre-season to try and force his way in.

We don't know of course, if Rowe or Springett have more or less potential than Tzolis but i'd argue both have shown a bit more than Tzolis in their even-more-limited minutes on the pitch.

I haven't seen Springett yet so can't really comment, but I don't really know that Rowe has shown a huge deal more than Tzolis? He had that one game when he came on and look lively and I think even bagged an assist but other than that he's generally come on and run around a bit, like pretty much every sub this season, rarely have they made an impact.

The problem is perspective, one is a player we splashed 10 million out on and the other is an Academy product. An Academy product just has to come on, work hard and not make any mistakes and they'll get plenty of free passes from the crowd. You have a 10 million price tag in you and the expectations rise exponentially. And that's understandable as well.

And Tzolis showed huge promise in the Bournemouth League Cup game. I know there are plenty of revisionists here who disparage it as Bournemouth Reserves, but it was a lineup that included Brooks, Marcondes, Steve Cook, Ben Pearson, plenty of Championship and even a bit of EPL pedigree in that team. And people forget that it was also a weakened Norwich side. And Tzolis dominated. There is a player in there.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I don't really know that Rowe has shown a huge deal more than Tzolis? He had that one game when he came on and look lively and I think even bagged an assist but other than that he's generally come on and run around a bit, like pretty much every sub this season, rarely have they made an impact.

That's my take also, Rowe is more explosive so can make a bigger splash when he initially comes on.  But if you compare the first touch and control that he & Tzolis display it's such a stark difference.  The game is littered with pacey players who don't have the class to truly deliver a consistent end result - Even sterling can be incredibly wasteful but his pace is top shelf to make up for it. 

The dis-service is that Tzolis comes on late in games where we're lacking possession, gets stuck out wide where he's not seen the ball.  He needs ball to feet and he will create space for us, where we have runners coming off him. 

Edited by Google Bot

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