Tzolis should start

[Mengo 822]

14 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

So 28 minutes of football since Mid January sits ok with you? :-

It's an absolute joke when you look at the lack of creativity we've displayed, amazed his head has gone completely.   It's the job of the head coach to keep these players motivated and encourage them to train well.

It's a strange one . Life for him has never been the same after been put on the naughty step over that penalty.  Long time ago now🤔.

He is faced with the conundrum of trying to find a job without having experience.

it's an expensive mistake if it doesn't work out , that's for sure.🤑

[canarybubbles 1,915]

Why this obsession with how players perform in training? 

I can only speak of my own field - education - but the best teachers in the classroom were not necessarily those who were most active or impressive in meetings or training sessions. This is also definitely true of theatre - the best performers in rehearsal often cannot repeat that performance on the big night, while actors who are less impressive in rehearsal often rise to another level when spurred on by pressure.

If a player is actively taking the p*ss during training, as is sometimes suggested that Cantwell did, by all means discipline him or refuse to play him. But just because someone isn't going 'Rah! Rah! Rah!' in training, that's no reason not to play him on Saturday.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

So 28 minutes of football since Mid January sits ok with you? :-

It's an absolute joke when you look at the lack of creativity we've displayed, amazed his head has gone completely.   It's the job of the head coach to keep these players motivated and encourage them to train well.

If he hasn't shown the sort of work in training necessary to justify a start, yes I've no problem with it at all. 

I'm not suggesting anything revolutionary - I'm saying those that have deserved the start should get it. Not just because he's only had 28 minutes since January. 

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

52 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Why this obsession with how players perform in training? 

What a strange post. 

The "obsession" is because this is how football works. If you don't perform in training what is there to say that you'll perform in a game? 

Comparing football to education is also bizarre; two very different worlds. 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

7 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

What a strange post. 

The "obsession" is because this is how football works. If you don't perform in training what is there to say that you'll perform in a game? 

Comparing football to education is also bizarre; two very different worlds. 

Conversely, if you do perform in training, what is there to say that you'll also perform in a game? The logic works both ways.

My general point was that some people need adrenaline to bring out their best, whatever their job. And that doing a real job in real time is not the same as a rehearsal or simulation.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

Why this obsession with how players perform in training? 

I can only speak of my own field - education - but the best teachers in the classroom were not necessarily those who were most active or impressive in meetings or training sessions. This is also definitely true of theatre - the best performers in rehearsal often cannot repeat that performance on the big night, while actors who are less impressive in rehearsal often rise to another level when spurred on by pressure.

If a player is actively taking the p*ss during training, as is sometimes suggested that Cantwell did, by all means discipline him or refuse to play him. But just because someone isn't going 'Rah! Rah! Rah!' in training, that's no reason not to play him on Saturday.

No, but he's been rubbish when he's on the pitch too. So if he's not performed when he has played, doesn't impress in training - but Rowe and Springett do impress in training,  and show positives in matches too, what right does Tzolis have to play and why do you want him to?

If he'd cost 2m instead, no one would even mention his name again. Price we paid is irrelevant. 

[Google Bot 3,259]

3 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I'm not suggesting anything revolutionary - I'm saying those that have deserved the start should get it. Not just because he's only had 28 minutes since January. 

He deserves a start based on his ability, we're lacking creative spark, rock bottom of the table, already relegated - those played in the past 4 months have failed to deliver.  This is way beyond who trains well, morale has to be an allowable factor and managed effectively.

[hogesar 9,618]

33 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

If he hasn't shown the sort of work in training necessary to justify a start, yes I've no problem with it at all. 

I'm not suggesting anything revolutionary - I'm saying those that have deserved the start should get it. Not just because he's only had 28 minutes since January. 

Yep, this.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

No, but he's been rubbish when he's on the pitch too. So if he's not performed when he has played, doesn't impress in training - but Rowe and Springett do impress in training,  and show positives in matches too, what right does Tzolis have to play and why do you want him to?

If he'd cost 2m instead, no one would even mention his name again. Price we paid is irrelevant. 

I'd argue with the word 'rubbish'. He was excellent against Bournemouth (I accept all the caveats regarding that statement, but it's true as far as it goes - MOTM). Apart from that, I think he has played one full match (maybe two?), a couple of halves, and a scattering of minutes at the end of games. That's nowhere near enough to make a final judgement.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

He deserves a start based on his ability, we're lacking creative spark, rock bottom of the table, already relegated - those played in the past 4 months have failed to deliver.  This is way beyond who trains well, morale has to be an allowable factor and managed effectively.

What ability? We haven't seen anything of his ability. 

What you are saying is he should be picked based on his reputation. That's nonsense. We've seen nothing from him to say he would be the answer to any lack of creative spark.  

[Harry53 208]

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly that. You gain confidence by good performances, and they're more likely to come against weaker sides when you're fully fit. Get a full pre-season in, and this applies to the whole team when it comes to Smith's methods, and work from there.

But FFS, no loan signings on clauses where the loan fee depends on the appearances made.

Can't see him playing as well as Milos. We need to sell Rachica

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

Conversely, if you do perform in training, what is there to say that you'll also perform in a game? The logic works both ways.

My general point was that some people need adrenaline to bring out their best, whatever their job. And that doing a real job in real time is not the same as a rehearsal or simulation.

I'm not a teacher. But I'm sure they would argue that marking books is every bit as doing a "real job in real time" as educating children in a classroom.

And as for footballers, most clubs have a squad of players. Those players compete internally to win a position on the pitch on game days. Part of that competition is performing in training.

I'm not saying Tzolis is being left out because of poor training. I just don't know. What I'm saying is if he is not performing in training, if others are performing better in training, it's absolutely right those players get picked before him. 

You shouldn't get picked just because you need an adrenaline rush. 

[yellowrider120 761]

7 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

There's every chance we will be looking to move him on in the summer. I'm not sure why some believe he suddenly going to be brilliant in the championship.  His card may already be marked. 

 

Totally agree. Rumours are that he is homesick and wants back to Greece. Very little chance of him being here next season I would say. Total waste of approx. £9M!!

 

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

1 minute ago, yellowrider120 said:

Totally agree. Rumours are that he is homesick and wants back to Greece. Very little chance of him being here next season I would say. Total waste of approx. £9M!!

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes back on loan

[Capt. Pants 4,202]

No he shouldn't!

Springett looking a real talent. Tzolis well down the pecking order. 

[Ken Hairy 3,760]

Got to be honest, Tzolis just has the appearance of a Sunday league player, now I'm not saying he won't come good but he needs definite work in pre season. 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

When is he going to get a chance though.  We’ve let him down IMO….  Rowe, Springett and absolutely incredibly Platcheta is ahead of him.     Really feel for the lad, completely wasted year (and possibly career) cos our scouts got it wrong!

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

Rashica got a body double in training? He is one of the worst wingers I’ve seen in the premiership for Norwich

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

I have serious doubts he’ll ever get going here.

I’m just not sure you can join a club in a totally different culture, thousands of miles away from home, as a 19 year old, do this poorly (both individually and collectively as a team) but suddenly turn it around from here just because we’re in a worse league.

Where is he at in the team as well if Rowe and Springett are above him in the pecking order, why is dropping down the division suddenly going to Tzolis the bigger prospect than either of those two? If they’re better prospects now then what is going to make it change? If he still has the potential to be fantastic but just lacking in confidence then it makes no sense not to play him more. What does he or the club have to lose at this point?

Also a lot of our players who turned it around after the first relegation at least had the security of knowing they’d done it before in the champs, they same can’t be said for Tzolis. I think he might need a change of scenery, a loan somewhere to come back with a clean slate, but honestly it’s hard to imagine how he doesn’t just want to go closer to home right now, for good…

Edited May 11, 2022 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Google Bot 3,259]

4 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

That's nonsense. We've seen nothing from him to say he would be the answer to any lack of creative spark.  

Yes we have, plus he has experience, assists and goals in higher level European competition too.  Not to mention the ability he possesses when you watch him play.

Forgot the 6-0 over Bournemouth? 2 Goals, 2 Assists, Man of the match performance.   Is that 'nothing'?  Because they're lower league perhaps? 

For me it was one of the best performances of the season, and few times Carrow Road felt on a high - thanks to his work, and let's not forget he was barely off the plane in that match.   

He's seen 28 minutes in 4 months of football when we need creativity, yet we've offered players like McLean, Sargent & Gilmour countless minutes and at times sent us backwards. 

We should be giving him game time and assessing where and what he can do for us at this level.

I shall be proved right within the next few seasons if he's given the chance, if you can't see his ability on the ball then it's wasted time even having this discussion as you're putting absolute trust into a coach who, over those months has demonstrated incredibly poor decisions and stripped us of character.

[TheBaldOne66 681]

If there’s any evidence of Webber pissing our money against the wall, this guy is it! At least Naismith got on the pitch and looked crap whereas Tzolis doesn’t get anywhere near the pitch it seems

Edited May 12, 2022 by TheBaldOne66

[hogesar 9,618]

11 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

When is he going to get a chance though.  We’ve let him down IMO….  Rowe, Springett and absolutely incredibly Platcheta is ahead of him.     Really feel for the lad, completely wasted year (and possibly career) cos our scouts got it wrong!

When he starts t oshow more than the players you've just listed. 

The reality is he started ahead of all of those when Smith first came in, and it didn't take him long to work out like Farke did, that he might just not be very good. At least, he's shown very little in the way of ability during his time here other than against Bournemouth Reserves where Sargent also looked like a world-beater.

[Yellow and Green 334]

22 hours ago, vlad666 said:

The fee is irrelevant. He’s played both Rowe and Springett before him. This tells me he’s either really bad in training or he’s unhappy here and wants to leave. Think he’ll be off in summer. 

I have a feeling he may be homesick. I have nothing to back this up with, apart from the fact that I saw a documentary about him when he signed, showing that he lived with, and is really close with, his family. Moving apart from your family at 19 is a risk and can be difficult.

Before anyone says 'the recruitment team should've known that', I'm pretty sure they placed him next door to (or he moved in with) Giannoulis, whom he played with at PAOK.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

13 hours ago, hogesar said:

When he starts t oshow more than the players you've just listed. 

The reality is he started ahead of all of those when Smith first came in, and it didn't take him long to work out like Farke did, that he might just not be very good. At least, he's shown very little in the way of ability during his time here other than against Bournemouth Reserves where Sargent also looked like a world-beater.

I was only responding to a poster, don’t think he is going to get a chance and whether he deserves one is another matter.   The issue for me is this kid was flying in Greece, had a career on the up, we saw something in him that was never what we needed at the time and possibly wasn’t there but we spent a fortune.    As a consequence, we likely lost a lot of money, he lost opportunity and confidence and probably a career, since he came to us too early, is in an alien environment and understandably has floundered.    Others may now be ahead of him on merit but it’s hard to blame the lad for our scouting failures…. And seriously, our scouting system is messed up if Platcheta is ahead of a £10m player!   There is no way it could be argued we’ve actually given him a chance in matches to prove himself.   
 

Now he’s stuck with still a 4-year contract (can you believe that) can only imagine he’s compromised if he has any conscience!    He can expect to earn a lot of money but I don’t think that will make up for not playing, the dreams he had at his feet and being away from his friends and family.    Can understand it would be hard for him since he would have expected involvement and it hasn’t happened.

Edited May 12, 2022 by ged in the onion bag

[canarydan23 4,060]

On 11/05/2022 at 16:37, canarybubbles said:

Why this obsession with how players perform in training? 

I can only speak of my own field - education - but the best teachers in the classroom were not necessarily those who were most active or impressive in meetings or training sessions. This is also definitely true of theatre - the best performers in rehearsal often cannot repeat that performance on the big night, while actors who are less impressive in rehearsal often rise to another level when spurred on by pressure.

If a player is actively taking the p*ss during training, as is sometimes suggested that Cantwell did, by all means discipline him or refuse to play him. But just because someone isn't going 'Rah! Rah! Rah!' in training, that's no reason not to play him on Saturday.

I'm a big cycling fan and one of the all time greats, Bernard Hinault, was an awful trainer, would frequently bin off rides if the weather was poor/looked like it might get poor. Put him in a competitive environment and no one tore themselves apart for the victory more. And he won more often than the vast majority of people in the sport's history. I don't think the Renault-Gitane cycling team ever thought they'd leave him out of a race because he'd trained badly.

[ged in the onion bag 854]

10 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm a big cycling fan and one of the all time greats, Bernard Hinault, was an awful trainer, would frequently bin off rides if the weather was poor/looked like it might get poor. Put him in a competitive environment and no one tore themselves apart for the victory more. And he won more often than the vast majority of people in the sport's history. I don't think the Renault-Gitane cycling team ever thought they'd leave him out of a race because he'd trained badly.

There was a similar debate on this when I quoted Paul McGrath at Villa, literally had a light runout on the Friday and played every game.    Became a club legend!   Smith of all people should know that.   
 

I honestly don’t know if he knows a good player anymore.    Keeps swapping new players out like Sorensen instead of giving them a few games to settle in.   

[Yellow Wal 314]

10 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm a big cycling fan and one of the all time greats, Bernard Hinault, was an awful trainer, would frequently bin off rides if the weather was poor/looked like it might get poor. Put him in a competitive environment and no one tore themselves apart for the victory more. And he won more often than the vast majority of people in the sport's history. I don't think the Renault-Gitane cycling team ever thought they'd leave him out of a race because he'd trained badly.

The difference being that Bernard Hinault performed when he had to even if he did not train well and it is that which he was judged on.

In a similar way, regardless of how Tzolis trains, let him be judged on how he performs and I think he has been. He has shown very little to make either Farke or Smith want to start him.

Personally, if we paid £10m for him I would be happy to receive £5m now and cut our losses.

 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

On 11/05/2022 at 10:28, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly that. You gain confidence by good performances, and they're more likely to come against weaker sides when you're fully fit. Get a full pre-season in, and this applies to the whole team when it comes to Smith's methods, and work from there.

But FFS, no loan signings on clauses where the loan fee depends on the appearances made.

Just ffs no loan signings 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

The difference being that Bernard Hinault performed when he had to even if he did not train well and it is that which he was judged on.

In a similar way, regardless of how Tzolis trains, let him be judged on how he performs and I think he has been. He has shown very little to make either Farke or Smith want to start him.

Personally, if we paid £10m for him I would be happy to receive £5m now and cut our losses.

 

Sadly, there won’t be any offers in that region!    It’s a major calamity from our scouting system and for the lad!

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

12 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Just ffs no loan signings 

Yes and no, I don't think it's a bad idea to get one if there's a shortage in the team and the market for buying players is a bit too pricey, so to have them as a squad player. Wouldn't build a first team with them though, as our Skipp-sized hole on promotion made abundantly clear (and we probably kiboshed Lungi's development a bit as well).