horsefly 4,298 Posted July 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Canaries north said: I can only see one position we really need to strengthen. Striker. Even if Pukki stays we are then only one injury away from being toothless. He is the only finisher we have. Getting an understudy will be hard as who wants to be second choice but essential. "Toothless"? Idah had a reputation for being a very good finisher at all levels of the game prior to his relatively few opportunities at senior level, and his hattrick against Preston hardly suggests "toothless". His performances in the Prem were very encouraging and if he can stay injury free there is good reason to hope he will crack on this year. Likewise Sargent's goals against Watford. Frankly, with them backing up Pukki along with Hugill, I'd much rather we spend our money on strengthening midfield. Quality strikers don't come cheap, so to splurge multi-millions on a backup striker just doesn't make sense to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ged in the onion bag 855 Posted July 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Nuff Said said: Ged, I may have misunderstood, but that’s *11* “capable” players you’ve listed there? That’s a whole first team. Ok, two keepers, but hardly a “few”. In the whole scheme of a football season, 9 outfield players is a few. Allowing for injuries and form also.... That basically gives us a foundation to be competitive and develop around it. Think that's the way to go than perservering with McLean, Dowell, Sargent, Zimmermann, Gibson etc who really aren't going to offer us anything at a higher level so whats the point playing them unless we have no other options. Rather see what Gibbs and Clarke and Sorensen can do instead of McLean, what Tzolis and Rowe and Springett can do instead of Dowell. Won't happen I suspect but if it doesn't we won't be developing a team capable of competing on a promotion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ged in the onion bag 855 Posted July 2, 2022 52 minutes ago, Samwam27 said: I see Birmingham have just sacked Bowyer. Does that likely derail Placheta going there on loan? To be fair, pursuing Platcheta would be a sackable offence! 2 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 2, 2022 4 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said: What do you suggest? Given our budget we are not going to be buying players with a proven PL record (unless we manage to bag another like Hayden on a loan to buy). That's the reality, and it's silly to think we're going to pay £10m-£20m+ in a transfer fee for a player commanding £40 grand+ wages. We have little option but to bring in players unproven at that level but who have demonstrated enough quality to think it is genuinely worthwhile giving them an opportunity to show they can step up. That's what we did with Pukki and Buendia. Sadly none of our punts paid off last season, but I see no alternative to that fundamental policy. It will be interesting to see if the likes of Sargent, Rashica etc, manage to step up a level in performance now they have had a season at the club. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said: In the whole scheme of a football season, 9 outfield players is a few. Allowing for injuries and form also.... That basically gives us a foundation to be competitive and develop around it. Think that's the way to go than perservering with McLean, Dowell, Sargent, Zimmermann, Gibson etc who really aren't going to offer us anything at a higher level so whats the point playing them unless we have no other options. Rather see what Gibbs and Clarke and Sorensen can do instead of McLean, what Tzolis and Rowe and Springett can do instead of Dowell. Won't happen I suspect but if it doesn't we won't be developing a team capable of competing on a promotion. Smith will pick the best team he has available in order to win games. That's what wins promotion. If he adopted your approach we would more than likely languish in the Championship for seasons, steadily reducing our income, making it even less likely that we could compete if we ever gained promotion again. And even if we did entertain your fantasy that we could develop a team from our academy squads that achieved promotion, then they would be even more inexperienced in the top flight than our previous squads. So your preferred approach to selection would be far more susceptible to the criticisms you yourself are making here, than the club's current policy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danke bitte 965 Posted July 2, 2022 3 hours ago, horsefly said: Smith will pick the best team he has available in order to win games. That's what wins promotion. If he adopted your approach we would more than likely languish in the Championship for seasons, steadily reducing our income, making it even less likely that we could compete if we ever gained promotion again. And even if we did entertain your fantasy that we could develop a team from our academy squads that achieved promotion, then they would be even more inexperienced in the top flight than our previous squads. So your preferred approach to selection would be far more susceptible to the criticisms you yourself are making here, than the club's current policy. Can we organise a meet up between you and Ged?! Cos it’s like reading polemics from two rival leading university lecturers! I should also say “thanks” for strengthening the muscle in my scrolling thumb when I’m reading threads too 😁 You should see me play funk bass now 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canaries north 151 Posted July 2, 2022 3 hours ago, horsefly said: "Toothless"? Idah had a reputation for being a very good finisher at all levels of the game prior to his relatively few opportunities at senior level, and his hattrick against Preston hardly suggests "toothless". His performances in the Prem were very encouraging and if he can stay injury free there is good reason to hope he will crack on this year. Likewise Sargent's goals against Watford. Frankly, with them backing up Pukki along with Hugill, I'd much rather we spend our money on strengthening midfield. Quality strikers don't come cheap, so to splurge multi-millions on a backup striker just doesn't make sense to me. So are you saying without Pukki up front we would be fine. Sorry but I don't see it. We are one injury and that is if he stays from a big problem. Idah had a good record at youth team level when he was built like a man playing against boys and if you look at his international record he is not a natural finisher. I really rate the boy and believe he has a big future but I would not be putting that responsibility on his shoulders. Captain America had one game against a Watford team who looked like they had thrown the towel in. His first touch is awful and he may look better in the championship but he is no Pukki. If Hugill is the answer then I worry what the question is. Yes we do need to strengthen in other areas but a Pukki injury could derail the whole season. The other positions we could make do with what we have and move players about if necessary, not ideal but possible but if you don't score you don't win. As I said the problem will be getting someone in who is good enough but who will know for this season he will be second choice. Is it impossible maybe but I'm so afraid of relying on one player in his 30's as the only player with a record for scoring goals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Danke bitte said: Can we organise a meet up between you and Ged?! Cos it’s like reading polemics from two rival leading university lecturers! I should also say “thanks” for strengthening the muscle in my scrolling thumb when I’m reading threads too 😁 You should see me play funk bass now Obviously you need to strengthen your scrolling thumb a bit more, as you didn't quite make it past that post. Or perhaps don't visit social media websites where you might just find people freely expressing their point of view. Or just ignore the posts you don't like. It's not difficult. And no! I shouldn't see you play funk bass, I have enough disappointment to deal with after last season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danke bitte 965 Posted July 2, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, horsefly said: Obviously you need to strengthen your scrolling thumb a bit more, as you didn't quite make it past that post. Or perhaps don't visit social media websites where you might just find people freely expressing their point of view. Or just ignore the posts you don't like. It's not difficult. And no! I shouldn't see you play funk bass, I have enough disappointment to deal with after last season. Ha I never said you couldn’t express your opinion, just think it’s very intense. Which is fair enough. And you’re right I can’t play funk bass, I can sing though, I’m pretty good at writing lyrics too, so maybe you’d prefer some NCFC related poetry if funk bass doesn’t sate?! Edited July 2, 2022 by Danke bitte 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ged in the onion bag 855 Posted July 2, 2022 7 hours ago, horsefly said: Given our budget we are not going to be buying players with a proven PL record (unless we manage to bag another like Hayden on a loan to buy). That's the reality, and it's silly to think we're going to pay £10m-£20m+ in a transfer fee for a player commanding £40 grand+ wages. We have little option but to bring in players unproven at that level but who have demonstrated enough quality to think it is genuinely worthwhile giving them an opportunity to show they can step up. That's what we did with Pukki and Buendia. Sadly none of our punts paid off last season, but I see no alternative to that fundamental policy. It will be interesting to see if the likes of Sargent, Rashica etc, manage to step up a level in performance now they have had a season at the club. So on the absence of any real idea as to how we can develop a competitive team, why be so vehemently against what I suggest! Seems your just stuck in the middle hoping things will work out! If that’s the case why have an opinion? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ged in the onion bag 855 Posted July 2, 2022 14 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said: So on the absence of any real idea as to how we can develop a competitive team, why be so vehemently against what I suggest! Seems your just stuck in the middle hoping things will work out! If that’s the case why have an opinion? Just to close off the loophole, you are entitled to an opinion!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 3, 2022 8 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said: So on the absence of any real idea as to how we can develop a competitive team, why be so vehemently against what I suggest! Seems your just stuck in the middle hoping things will work out! If that’s the case why have an opinion? Nope! I'm reflecting the obvious fact that, sans the appearance of a beneficent billionaire, the current club policy remains our best option. I object to your idea because it involves us promoting players to the first team that the manager and coaching staff don't consider to be ready to occupy those places. That in turn would likely lead to more years spent in the Championship (something you yourself said you are happy with), which in turn means a dramatic decrease in finances, which in turn means a dramatic decrease in our transfer budget, which in turn means that any players we did develop to potential PL level would have to be sold off to keep the club financially viable. How that plan is supposed to increase the likelihood of us producing a competitive PL squad God only knows. I want NCFC to be as successful as possible, thus I prefer realism to pure fantasy, that's why I have an opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terminally Yellow 2,448 Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/nottingham-forest-ready-to-launch-10m-bid-for-huddersfield-town-star-as-norwich-city-register-interest/ Football League World claim we've "registered an interest" in Lewis O'Brien. I can't imagine he'd come cheap, but I would have him in a heart beat. I think he's one of the best players outside the Premier League. Edit: The origin of the story isn't in fact FLW, but Alan Nixon (from the Sun). Edited July 3, 2022 by Terminally Yellow Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,816 Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said: https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/nottingham-forest-ready-to-launch-10m-bid-for-huddersfield-town-star-as-norwich-city-register-interest/ Football League World claim we've "registered an interest" in Lewis O'Brien. I can't imagine he'd come cheap, but I would have him in a heart beat. I think he's one of the best players outside the Premier League. Edit: The origin of the story isn't in fact FLW, but Alan Nixon (from the Sun). "However, one team that aren’t set to be in the race for his signature are Norwich City, who are interested in taking him to Carrow Road but aren’t prepared to fork out the money needed to take him away from their Championship rivals." Sounds more like he could've been a candidate for the Hayden role at the right price, but doesn't seem to be what we're looking for in our physical, athletic 'number eight' that can chip in with goals and assists. Edited July 3, 2022 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cambridgeshire canary 6,707 Posted July 3, 2022 47 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said: https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/nottingham-forest-ready-to-launch-10m-bid-for-huddersfield-town-star-as-norwich-city-register-interest/ Football League World claim we've "registered an interest" in Lewis O'Brien. I can't imagine he'd come cheap, but I would have him in a heart beat. I think he's one of the best players outside the Premier League. Edit: The origin of the story isn't in fact FLW, but Alan Nixon (from the Sun). Looked him up and about ten articles about him being close to joining forest popped up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 3, 2022 2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said: Looked him up and about ten articles about him being close to joining forest popped up Indeed! Seems Forest are going to have to splash out £10m+ on a player with absolutely no PL experience. In the wake of promotion they're having to take a punt on unproven expensive additions in the hope they can step up; sound familiar? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr Greenthumb 749 Posted July 3, 2022 1 hour ago, horsefly said: Indeed! Seems Forest are going to have to splash out £10m+ on a player with absolutely no PL experience. In the wake of promotion they're having to take a punt on unproven expensive additions in the hope they can step up; sound familiar? Not really, we didn’t bother replacing our defensive midfielder when we went up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 3, 2022 25 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said: Not really, we didn’t bother replacing our defensive midfielder when we went up That isn't the point I was making. And even that is wrong, we brought in Normann. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yellowrider120 762 Posted July 3, 2022 22 hours ago, Canaries north said: So are you saying without Pukki up front we would be fine. Sorry but I don't see it. We are one injury and that is if he stays from a big problem. Idah had a good record at youth team level when he was built like a man playing against boys and if you look at his international record he is not a natural finisher. I really rate the boy and believe he has a big future but I would not be putting that responsibility on his shoulders. Captain America had one game against a Watford team who looked like they had thrown the towel in. His first touch is awful and he may look better in the championship but he is no Pukki. If Hugill is the answer then I worry what the question is. Yes we do need to strengthen in other areas but a Pukki injury could derail the whole season. The other positions we could make do with what we have and move players about if necessary, not ideal but possible but if you don't score you don't win. As I said the problem will be getting someone in who is good enough but who will know for this season he will be second choice. Is it impossible maybe but I'm so afraid of relying on one player in his 30's as the only player with a record for scoring goals. Completely agree - amazed that other posters don't see it also! We have persisted with playing Pukki every match until he's totally shot for four seasons now. Make that FIVE if he's still here at the end of the window. No-one else gets a look in and precious little priority appears to be given to the scenarios you paint. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terminally Yellow 2,448 Posted July 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said: Completely agree - amazed that other posters don't see it also! We have persisted with playing Pukki every match until he's totally shot for four seasons now. Make that FIVE if he's still here at the end of the window. No-one else gets a look in and precious little priority appears to be given to the scenarios you paint. Ok. Let's get another striker in then. Ignore the fact to do so would cost probably tens of millions to get someone capable of scoring regularly even at this level. And the fact that no striker of that sort of ability will sign to play second fiddle. Ignore the other players we have in that position - including the very highly rated Adam Idah whose development will be further stifled playing behind another striker. And ignore the other areas of the squad in far greater need of improvement. What we need to do is get in players in other parts of the field who can score goals and take the burden from Pukki. Knowing we can rely on other areas of the team for goals means we can perhaps rest Teemu on occasion and not have to take such risks with him. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,816 Posted July 3, 2022 19 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said: Ok. Let's get another striker in then. Ignore the fact to do so would cost probably tens of millions to get someone capable of scoring regularly even at this level. And the fact that no striker of that sort of ability will sign to play second fiddle. Ignore the other players we have in that position - including the very highly rated Adam Idah whose development will be further stifled playing behind another striker. And ignore the other areas of the squad in far greater need of improvement. What we need to do is get in players in other parts of the field who can score goals and take the burden from Pukki. Knowing we can rely on other areas of the team for goals means we can perhaps rest Teemu on occasion and not have to take such risks with him. Absolutely spot on. The elusive 'number eight' who can chip in with goals and assists and a quality right winger are the two priorities for me, and I'd be happy if we put all our eggs into these two baskets and they're our only two additions*, going for quality over quantity. These two and Rashica playing in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 behind Idah/Sargent should provide enough goals if Pukki's unavailable, provided of course we sign the 'right' players for these two positions. *Excluding like-for-like replacements for Aarons, Rashica etc. if they leave. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr Greenthumb 749 Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, horsefly said: That isn't the point I was making. And even that is wrong, we brought in Normann. https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/mathias-normann-a-story-of-talent-impact-and-injury/ Edited July 3, 2022 by Dr Greenthumb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 3, 2022 44 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said: https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/mathias-normann-a-story-of-talent-impact-and-injury/ Your exact words were that we didn't replace our defensive midfielder. WE DID! Your link simply points out that his contribution was affected injury; that's a risk with all footballers. None of that alters the fact that we brought him in as a defensive midfielder and his early performances were good (as was noted on MOTD). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yellowrider120 762 Posted July 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said: Ok. Let's get another striker in then. Ignore the fact to do so would cost probably tens of millions to get someone capable of scoring regularly even at this level. And the fact that no striker of that sort of ability will sign to play second fiddle. Ignore the other players we have in that position - including the very highly rated Adam Idah whose development will be further stifled playing behind another striker. And ignore the other areas of the squad in far greater need of improvement. What we need to do is get in players in other parts of the field who can score goals and take the burden from Pukki. Knowing we can rely on other areas of the team for goals means we can perhaps rest Teemu on occasion and not have to take such risks with him. Much here that I agree with. Problem is that Hugill can't score anything like the goals required at this level (see last season for proof) whilst if you just look at appearances v goals then Idah and Sargent may not be the answer either. I have been supporting the former for years but how many starts has he had? He has played very little meaningful professional football. Which is the REAL Adam Idah? The absolute joke who 'played' against Liverpool in the League Cup after which he received the worst abuse on this forum I've ever read about any Norwich player OR the guy who produced an outstanding example of centre forward play v Everton and was lauded for that by (arguably) England's most prominent player in said position! As for the section highlighted, again I agree but we have shown woeful inability to get these goals from said areas. Herr Farke regularly mentioned this deficiency yet failed to address it. The one player who could fulfil said requirement was flogged off to the highest bidder by Webber a year ago and not replaced! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dylanisabaddog 4,911 Posted July 4, 2022 I don't think O'Brien has the physicality required for the Premier League. A very good Championship player though, but as we've found to our cost that means nothing in the Premier League. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Holt 522 Posted July 4, 2022 Just another irrelevant opinion: Just seen a video of Brentford's training ground and it's an absolute Sh1twhole. Funny how the players don't really mind where they spend 20 hours a week when they're getting paid good money. Still, at least we've got a nice spa and an arcade machine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeiranShikari 1,410 Posted July 4, 2022 A bad training ground is why we ended up with Steven Naismith instead of Sebastien Haller. It probably matters to a certain type of player. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,298 Posted July 4, 2022 17 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said: Ok. Let's get another striker in then. Ignore the fact to do so would cost probably tens of millions to get someone capable of scoring regularly even at this level. And the fact that no striker of that sort of ability will sign to play second fiddle. Ignore the other players we have in that position - including the very highly rated Adam Idah whose development will be further stifled playing behind another striker. And ignore the other areas of the squad in far greater need of improvement. What we need to do is get in players in other parts of the field who can score goals and take the burden from Pukki. Knowing we can rely on other areas of the team for goals means we can perhaps rest Teemu on occasion and not have to take such risks with him. Indeed! Adam Armstrong cost Southampton £15m+, 23 appearances, 2 goals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canaries north 151 Posted July 4, 2022 17 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said: Ok. Let's get another striker in then. Ignore the fact to do so would cost probably tens of millions to get someone capable of scoring regularly even at this level. And the fact that no striker of that sort of ability will sign to play second fiddle. Ignore the other players we have in that position - including the very highly rated Adam Idah whose development will be further stifled playing behind another striker. And ignore the other areas of the squad in far greater need of improvement. What we need to do is get in players in other parts of the field who can score goals and take the burden from Pukki. Knowing we can rely on other areas of the team for goals means we can perhaps rest Teemu on occasion and not have to take such risks with him. I agree getting a player in to play second fiddle will be very difficult but said player will get time on the pitch this season as we have to give Pukki a rest. Also they will know they will be first choice next season and hopefully that will be in the prem. I also agree we need players from midfield to score more but can we really go into the season with only one player who can regularly put the ball in the back of the net. We have one natural finisher in the squad. Lose him to injury/fatigue and even with a midfield that adds more goals we will not be going up. As for Idah being stifled, my guess is we will have Idah and Pukki playing together. If not then it's up to him to show he is ready for the first team. Personally I really rate Idah but don't see him as a natural goalscorer. This might come but I see him now as a perfect foil for Pukki or another natural finisher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hertfordyellow 460 Posted July 4, 2022 36 minutes ago, Captain Holt said: Just another irrelevant opinion: Just seen a video of Brentford's training ground and it's an absolute Sh1twhole. Funny how the players don't really mind where they spend 20 hours a week when they're getting paid good money. Still, at least we've got a nice spa and an arcade machine. why aren't we Brentford though? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites