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lake district canary

Is being a yo yo club really that bad?

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To my mind the biggest problem this season was trying to be something different. We all saw it - too many changes of personell this season, a change of formation, added to a nightmare fixture list and covid. A recipe for disaster.

If we had just accepted the way we play - ie farkeball - we may have still gone down, but we would have been playing our way, our identifiable and proven way of playing.  All we had to do was carry on - but try and play it better.

I was a bit mystified at the start of the season, losing so many personalities and players well versed in farkeball, that it seemed like we were trying to re-invent the wheel - in a situation where it was going to be very difficult to do that. If you are going to change players/formations the best time to do it is when you're not under so much pressure - and in this case we were trying to do it in the most pressurised situatiuon possible - the Premier League!

So if we had just carried on our way of doing things, we might have still gone down, but all done in a way that provided continuity and development. 

In short we were too ambitious for our own good.  Better to be what you are than try and be something you can't be - and if that means yo yo-ing year on year, is that really so bad? 

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I think we'd have still gone down regardless, but there were a few games that suggested to me that if we had Smith here all season with an injury free squad we'd have got a lot closer. 

I agree with you, I still think it was stupid to change systems on promotion. I'm not being wise after the event, several of us were saying it last summer. 

Next season really depends on getting Andrew O and Idah injury free and most of all, how much we get for Max and Rashica and how we spend it. 

 

Edited by dylanisabaddog
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Several problems here - our ‘identifiable and proven’ way of playing was only proven to result in bottom place in the PL…we clearly needed to make changes to our style of play but simply failed to get the players in to replace the leavers, let alone make those changes.  The result was a mix that didn’t work, and we’ll need to go forwards rather than back if we are to make it work.

As to whether being a yo yo club is that bad, I’d say that it is almost inevitable that many sides outside the top 8-9 will be - though perhaps not yo-yoing every season as we seem to do along with Fulham.  It seems relatively few sides have been able to establish themselves fully, and spend much of the time fearing the drop (eg Burnley, Leeds, usually Brighton).  For me it’ll be interesting to see Brentford next season as it seems reasonably likely they’ll follow what Sheff Utd did.    Hopefully we can regroup and come back stronger, break the cycle, but who knows how long it would be for.

Edited by Branston Pickle

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My personal opinion in football as much as it is life is, I’d much rather we had ambitions to be the best we can be and strive for continuing improvement. So on a philosophical level for me yes I’d say it is bad.  
 

In reality It’s always going to be difficult to establish Norwich in the Premier League while constantly trying to do things on the cheap. We simply do not offer the wages needed to attract the calibre of player to keep us in the league. Nor do we seem to have a willingness to pay the going rate for our top targets every summer (Ajer being a prime example). So unless we have a situation like the class of 92 at United where a group of young local players who would be committed to Norwich dragged us up and kept us there we really have no choice. I doubt next year we will be in the top 6 highest paying clubs in the championship so if we do manage to get up we will without certainty be the lowest paying side in the Prem the following year. 
 

 

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11 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Better to be what you are than try and be something you can't be

Jesus. There's a rallying cry if ever I heard one.

Norwich City! Know your limits!

OTBC

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Too ambitious for our own good? Haven't heard anything so outrageous since the claim greedo shot first.

Most of the pundits and fans of other teams see us and Fulham as joke clubs who are just taking the parachute money but never really serious about staying up. It's a good bet alot of players feel the same way. It's always going to be difficult to attract anyone half decent if that's the case. You won't get a player to come if you tell him that you're just happy to be in the premier league.  It will be downward spiral of diminishing returns. And some will soon be saying. 14tg in the championship is fine. But a top half finish would be better.

We need to show ambition constantly as we're in danger of becoming one of the biggest jokes in football.

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10 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

To my mind the biggest problem this season was trying to be something different. We all saw it - too many changes of personell this season, a change of formation, added to a nightmare fixture list and covid. A recipe for disaster.

If we had just accepted the way we play - ie farkeball - we may have still gone down, but we would have been playing our way, our identifiable and proven way of playing.  All we had to do was carry on - but try and play it better.

I was a bit mystified at the start of the season, losing so many personalities and players well versed in farkeball, that it seemed like we were trying to re-invent the wheel - in a situation where it was going to be very difficult to do that. If you are going to change players/formations the best time to do it is when you're not under so much pressure - and in this case we were trying to do it in the most pressurised situatiuon possible - the Premier League!

So if we had just carried on our way of doing things, we might have still gone down, but all done in a way that provided continuity and development. 

In short we were too ambitious for our own good.  Better to be what you are than try and be something you can't be - and if that means yo yo-ing year on year, is that really so bad? 

I agree with you. And would also suggest that Farkeball lended itself to getting better loan players (subject to the option to make perm signing) so arguably we would be in a better place next year if we need loanees. Perhaps we should accept that in the absence of a lot of cash and similar slice of good luck we will never get to be an established Premier team - so lets be competitive at the right level for us, enjoy our football and take the promotion as a bonus and not a right?

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Heres our well of optimism at it again. You could be on the sinking titanic and be all 'Well I did fancy a swim..'

 

End of the day though its not all bad I agree. We are debt free, still in the top two divisions. I mean look at Derby or Sunderland, or even the binners.. Things could always be worse

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It could certainly be worse , imagine following either q.p.r. or Preston your never gonna be good enough for promotion or bad enough for relegation , midtable every year so many meaningless games boring.😃

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1 minute ago, The Raptor said:

Too ambitious for our own good? Haven't heard anything so outrageous since the claim greedo shot first.

Don't get me started; the slow destruction of Star Wars, Star Trek et al is one of my biggest bugbears of recent years. Been watching Picard recently. The biggest dumpster fire of the lot. 

Off topic I know, but meh.

OTBC

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14 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Don't get me started; the slow destruction of Star Wars, Star Trek et al is one of my biggest bugbears of recent years. Been watching Picard recently. The biggest dumpster fire of the lot. 

Off topic I know, but meh.

OTBC

Sorry for winding you up. Hope this helps!

download (12).jpeg

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Hoping for a lottery win/sugar daddy/outside bale out so everything will be all right , or

- working hard from within to sustain and build 

which is ‘ambition’ ? 

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43 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

In reality It’s always going to be difficult to establish Norwich in the Premier League while constantly trying to do things on the cheap. We simply do not offer the wages needed to attract the calibre of player to keep us in the league.

Our wage bill and transfer spend will be broadly the same as the other promoted teams. Players of definite Premier league ability will not chose to go to a newly-promoted club unless there were no "better" options available.

It's why most promoted teams are relegated in Year 1 and of those that stay up a lot of them are relegated in Year 2.

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Biggest problem was we had it too easy in the Championship the season before. We believed our own hype, got cocky, went into the season without a recognised defensive midfielder, signed some godawful players and Farke coming out with nonsense like he wouldn't be happy with 17th.

Approach next season like we did this and there will be no 'yo' and the bubble bursts.

Edited by Capt. Pants

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There are traditionally 92 professional clubs, at least 65 of those would love to be a yoyo club between prem and championship, we are fortunate in so many ways when you look at other clubs, like Oldham.

We have regular success and seemingly  stability and sustainability,  but I don't think it's possible to yoyo forever, eventually you either get it right and stay up a few years or get it wrong and it could be 10 orc15 years before promotion, and that's assuming we don't go down again.

Farkeball failed in the prem, but I thought we were addressing that in the championship to adapt farkeball with being more solid and better defensively which seemed to have worked, if you compare goals against I  then title winning seasons.

Yet, we seem to decide to go away from that. 

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48 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Don't get me started; the slow destruction of Star Wars, Star Trek et al is one of my biggest bugbears of recent years. Been watching Picard recently. The biggest dumpster fire of the lot. 

Off topic I know, but meh.

OTBC

Yes, agree with that 100%. Season 2 of Picard has been lamentably, unforgivably dreadful from start to finish. Where to start? How about the infant Jean-Luc constantly whimpering "Ma 'mon" as he constantly prowls the chateau like a wet paper bag, that or trying to make Seven and Rafi a wise cracking double act in the 'Thelma and Louise' mould- cop car chases, fire fights, "...we've gotta get out of here" and shoehorning Brent Spiner into the series just so that they can say Brent Spiner iis in it......oh, and the little nod to the X-Files, you know, ET hunting FBI man restricted to office in basement, even a love story that isn't because, *sigh*, "...this isn't my time" -and all of that is just for starters.

Is poorly written sci-fi for the general viewer-yes, at a push. Is it Star Trek? Hell no, not even close.

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The trouble with our current level of investment is we will always be living on borrowed time in the prem. Even if we managed to survive that first season, we wouldn't really be any better equipped the following season. Yes we'd get the sky money, but to have any chance in staying up, that all has to be spent, leaving the club in a perilous financial position should/when relegation comes. The current owners have been burnt plenty of times in the past, which probably explains their more cautious approach now. Yoyoing at least allows us to have a strong championship squad and keeps us more than competitive at that level, the odd foray to the prem keeps the money rolling in. It's not ideal and of course we would all like to become an established premier league club  but as many have pointed out it could be worse.

Arguably we were in a better position the first time we went up with Farke, we had a good core of young players in the squad who potentially would have improved at that level, and didn't really need all that many players to keep us up. A few quality additions around Godfrey, Lewis, Aarons, Cantwell, Emi and Pukki would have done it. It kind of feels that chance has been wasted, and along with the loss of Farke it looks like a complete rebuild is needed.

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As a ST holder who has only missed a handful of home games over the last 23 years I would say "Yes it is", I know it will always be tough to survive in the Premier League, but our last two forays into the top tier have been nothing short of abysmal. It is only the fact that I would miss the people I have sat with for the last 23 years and the social element that prevented me from not renewing my ST. It is time for fresh investment and time for Webber to keep on walking after he has climbed Everest.......

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2 minutes ago, Old Shuck said:

Yes, agree with that 100%. Season 2 of Picard has been lamentably, unforgivably dreadful from start to finish. Where to start? How about the infant Jean-Luc constantly whimpering "Ma 'mon" as he constantly prowls the chateau like a wet paper bag, that or trying to make Seven and Rafi a wise cracking double act in the 'Thelma and Louise' mould- cop car chases, fire fights, "...we've gotta get out of here" and shoehorning Brent Spiner into the series just so that they can say Brent Spiner iis in it......oh, and the little nod to the X-Files, you know, ET hunting FBI man restricted to office in basement, even a love story that isn't because, *sigh*, "...this isn't my time" -and all of that is just for starters.

Is poorly written sci-fi for the general viewer-yes, at a push. Is it Star Trek? Hell no, not even close.

I feel your pain Old Shuck...because it is also my pain. Like you correctly said - it isn't Star Trek anymore.

Episode 6 was the worst...you know the one. You know what happened.

That was until I saw Episode 9; the single worst episode of any Star Trek series ever. 

It's not just super bad Trek though - it's an awful series full stop. How these writers are keeping their jobs I'll never know.

Feel free to personal message me if you want to share your thoughts on the series or just have a little cry.

I can't wait for them to destroy the rest of the TNG  crew in season 3.

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

 

Apologises Lakey for going off topic.

OTBC

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I don't think most people mind being a yo-yo club if they just say that rather the nonsense they usually spout. It's obvious that the Premier League is a Billionaires playground. Even Brighton, Brentford and Burnely have money behind them. Us and Watford have the least, both relegated. 

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3 hours ago, The Raptor said:

Most of the pundits and fans of other teams

I don't think that's true at all. The split between the top  two and the rest has widened hugely in the last 2 or 3 years. England is fast becoming the same as Scotland - only 3 or 4 clubs now have a chance of winning anything and all the best players want to go there. Even Chelsea are struggling to keep up with Liverpool and Man City in the league. Newcastle might break in by spending another billion or two. Spurs and Arsenal are losing ground every season. They are all now fighting for the occasional cup.

Most of the pundits might think we're a waste of time, but only in the same way that Brighton, Palace, etc are a waste of time. They'll never win anything or remotely threaten to derail the top two or three. We are as relevant to the Premier League as any other club who visits from time to time. Brentford have a small chance of surviving another season. Brighton will come back down in another couple of years. 7 of the last 9 promoted sides have gone back down within two years - make that 9 if Leeds go this year and Brentford go next.

Most of the fans understand exactly what is happening.

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2 hours ago, OnDaBall said:

The trouble with our current level of investment is we will always be living on borrowed time in the prem. Even if we managed to survive that first season, we wouldn't really be any better equipped the following season. Yes we'd get the sky money, but to have any chance in staying up, that all has to be spent, leaving the club in a perilous financial position should/when relegation comes. The current owners have been burnt plenty of times in the past, which probably explains their more cautious approach now. Yoyoing at least allows us to have a strong championship squad and keeps us more than competitive at that level, the odd foray to the prem keeps the money rolling in. It's not ideal and of course we would all like to become an established premier league club  but as many have pointed out it could be worse.

Arguably we were in a better position the first time we went up with Farke, we had a good core of young players in the squad who potentially would have improved at that level, and didn't really need all that many players to keep us up. A few quality additions around Godfrey, Lewis, Aarons, Cantwell, Emi and Pukki would have done it. It kind of feels that chance has been wasted, and along with the loss of Farke it looks like a complete rebuild is needed.

I agree with your second para. That summer's recruitment was also useless. We needed PL experience but instead spaffed money on two loanees who were hopeless.

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3 hours ago, The Raptor said:

Too ambitious for our own good? Haven't heard anything so outrageous since the claim greedo shot first.

Most of the pundits and fans of other teams see us and Fulham as joke clubs who are just taking the parachute money but never really serious about staying up. It's a good bet alot of players feel the same way. It's always going to be difficult to attract anyone half decent if that's the case. You won't get a player to come if you tell him that you're just happy to be in the premier league.  It will be downward spiral of diminishing returns. And some will soon be saying. 14tg in the championship is fine. But a top half finish would be better.

We need to show ambition constantly as we're in danger of becoming one of the biggest jokes in football.

Yes, the media portray us like that but who cares? They completely ignore Leeds and Villa being down there with us after the money they've spent. They also completely ignored the Sheffield United shambles and will probably be the same with Brentford next season. In fact the Sheffield United manager was hailed as a tactical genius but somehow ended up at Middlesbrough. 

Perhaps the biggest shambles of all is Everton who strangely are treated as victims by the media when the reality is they should be vilified for what has been the worst mismanagement of a club I can remember. Apart from Ipswich obviously😊

In truth it is football and in particular the Premier League that is at fault. If the national media can't see that then I suggest you ignore them. 

Edit - if you are relegated it doesn't matter if it's with 20 points or 40 points. You end up in the same place. 

Edited by dylanisabaddog
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I don’t mind being a yo-yo club as although the second part is very stressful and frustrating, the first part is fun to watch and upcoming fixtures feel exciting. Those who don’t want us promoted next season should just bring a banner with them to games saying something like: “Deano Out, Glenn Equivalent In!”

Being a mid-table team is boring - you just wonder what the outcome of the next fixture will be. The Grant-Roeder-Gunn era was thoroughly miserable

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2 hours ago, shaunieboy77 said:

 We all love the first Yo but it would be nice if the second Yo wasn't so short lived.  

We're a 'yo no' club.

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3 hours ago, Badger said:

Our wage bill and transfer spend will be broadly the same as the other promoted teams. Players of definite Premier league ability will not chose to go to a newly-promoted club unless there were no "better" options available.

It's why most promoted teams are relegated in Year 1 and of those that stay up a lot of them are relegated in Year 2.

If you pay the going rate for weekly wages then players will go, when you’re offering players less than half the wages of teams in the bottom half of the league you’ve got no chance. 
 

if you think Buendia and Coutinho went to villa because they want to win things or for the love of Gerard you’re up the wrong tree. I’d dread to think the weekly wage Everton players are on a mere two places above us. As they say Money talks and BS walks. 

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It's not nice being one, but I think at this point you need a hell of a lot of things to go your way, as well as not making any mistakes, in order to really prevent yourselves yo-yoing. It'll be interesting to see how Fulham do next season, have so much more money behind them than we do yet seem to be stuck in a similar rut. If Leeds come down with us and Watford (looking quite possible now), the 'youngest' prem side of those who remain will be Brentford (2nd season syndrome possibly?) but after them would be Villa, who would be entering their 4th season in the league. It's becoming more of a closed shop with each passing year in my opinion.

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