Michael Bailey Athletic Article

[Move Klose 303]

Just now, king canary said:

I think both things can be true- the players likely weren't good enough to survive but they were better than the performances Farke was getting from them 

That's a fair assessment.

[hogesar 9,658]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think both things can be true- the players likely weren't good enough to survive but they were better than the performances Farke was getting from them 

Also if the players felt Farke knew they weren't good enough, that's one thing with the experienced pros but the younger players and new ones are going to even subconsciously match that. Especially a potential confidence player like Tzolis.

[repman 635]

The one thing missing from the article is understanding how we managed to go from being a club that seemed to have a plan for what it was doing, into one that suddenly started panicking and making moves at odds with previous ideals. A lot of the signings, combined with the 4-3-3 used from the start of pre-season, suggested that a change in playing style was going to happen. However when you see that Farke wanted only minimal signings the question is did he agree with the change in style, or was it done as a result of the players he was given?

It very much sounds like Kieran Scott was going to be Webber's successor and that this season would be a transitional one for that role. It doesn't seem as if Webber wants to do a rebuilding job like he did when he first joined the club, but then there isn't anyone else at the club who could do it either.

[Wishbone 8]

24 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Also if the players felt Farke knew they weren't good enough, that's one thing with the experienced pros but the younger players and new ones are going to even subconsciously match that. Especially a potential confidence player like Tzolis.

Dean Smith saying the players haven't been good enough, albeit after relegation was confirmed, might sow doubt in some players as well. I guess the facts to back this opinion but wouldn't you question a manager that says this after continually spreading the message the players are good enough earlier on?! Deep down, did DS ever believe they were good enough.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

3 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

To be fair we all identified what we needed, and didn’t get anywhere near getting it.

I agree because it was obvious which makes it all the more staggering. It is, however, revealing that it was not part of some strategy cooked up with Farke but actually contrary to his wishes 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

3 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I think we could all have had a reasonable shout at what was needed. Wanting and delivering are two different things.

They should have been the absolute top priorities. Bag Ajer and the DM and then worry about the rest of the squad afterwards. To lose out on both for what in prem term are modest sums of money and then **** millions up the wall on loanees is inexcusable. 

[komakino 272]

6 minutes ago, Wishbone said:

Dean Smith saying the players haven't been good enough, albeit after relegation was confirmed, might sow doubt in some players as well. I guess the facts to back this opinion but wouldn't you question a manager that says this after continually spreading the message the players are good enough earlier on?! Deep down, did DS ever believe they were good enough.

I don't think Dean Smith was any different to anybody else in knowing that the squad wasn't good enough. What I think may have surprised him was how bad. All the momentum that got us promoted went out the window with Webber's appalling recruitment and Smith was probably trying damage limitation with some experimenting on what could be done with a sub standard squad. 

 

[WD40 720]

Farke unfortunately had to go at the point he did. The point of the Sporting Director and Head Coach model is to be able to make a change of HC (for whatever reason) and keep continuity. To junk Webber at that point would have exposed the failure of the model much earlier and the club couldn’t have that. 

Lot of talk about Ajer on here. How many games has he played this season? Been injured a lot and don’t think he would have made a massive difference (alone). 

[hogesar 9,658]

5 minutes ago, WD40 said:

Farke unfortunately had to go at the point he did. The point of the Sporting Director and Head Coach model is to be able to make a change of HC (for whatever reason) and keep continuity. To junk Webber at that point would have exposed the failure of the model much earlier and the club couldn’t have that. 

Lot of talk about Ajer on here. How many games has he played this season? Been injured a lot and don’t think he would have made a massive difference (alone). 

Hes only started 19 games. Like you say, he wouldn't have made the difference. Maybe if Kabak stayed fit throughout, who knows.

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Hes only started 19 games. Like you say, he wouldn't have made the difference. Maybe if Kabak stayed fit throughout, who knows.

At the time, I was delighted we’d got Kabak and not Ajer. Probably been a bit unlucky with him, although I’m sure others will think we got lucky that he was out for so much of the season because he was clearly useless and we’d have been 21st in the table had he played..🤷🏻‍♂️😉

[king canary 7,605]

13 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Hes only started 19 games. Like you say, he wouldn't have made the difference. Maybe if Kabak stayed fit throughout, who knows.

Difficult to say that with any certainty though. Just because it doesn't work at one club doesn't mean he wouldn't have worked here. Clearly the club identified him and wanted him enough to think he'd make the difference. 

[hogesar 9,658]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Difficult to say that with any certainty though. Just because it doesn't work at one club doesn't mean he wouldn't have worked here. Clearly the club identified him and wanted him enough to think he'd make the difference. 

If an injured Ajer vs an injured Kabak was the only difference to stop us staying up then Webber and co should be applauded for us being so close...

I jest, but we've been that off it with or without Farke-ball that a single defender signing, who's not been anything majorly special at another similar club, is incredibly unlikely to have made the difference. 

[WD40 720]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

If an injured Ajer vs an injured Kabak was the only difference to stop us staying up then Webber and co should be applauded for us being so close...

I jest, but we've been that off it with or without Farke-ball that a single defender signing, who's not been anything majorly special at another similar club, is incredibly unlikely to have made the difference. 

Is the right answer

[king canary 7,605]

17 minutes ago, hogesar said:

If an injured Ajer vs an injured Kabak was the only difference to stop us staying up then Webber and co should be applauded for us being so close...

I jest, but we've been that off it with or without Farke-ball that a single defender signing, who's not been anything majorly special at another similar club, is incredibly unlikely to have made the difference. 

No that's fair, my more general point though is that he may have performed better here and ended up playing more than at Brentford. 

I also think this season has been a sobering lesson in the need to get key signings in early. Had we just paid up for Ajer we would have had a key signing in place for pre season and the kick off. Similarly Andrich would likey have been in place for the Liverpool game based on when he signed for Leverkusen. Instead we ended up bringing in Kabak and Normann far too late. It may be that if those two joined in July rather than end of August they may have had a much bigger impact.

Edited May 1, 2022 by king canary

[Ulfotto 632]

I will pitch he and say given the COVID situation only signing three players could have seen as a pretty silly decision.

[hogesar 9,658]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

No that's fair, my more general point though is that he may have performed better here and ended up playing more than at Brentford. 

I also think this season has been a sobering lesson in the need to get key signings in early. Had we just paid up for Ajer we would have had a key signing in place for pre season and the kick off. Similarly Andrich would likey have been in place for the Liverpool game based on when he signed for Leverkusen. Instead we ended up bringing in Kabak and Normann far too late. It may be that if those two joined in July rather than end of August they may have had a much bigger impact.

I agree, although it gets forgotten we didnt really have a pre season. I know that was out of our control but we were so far off it in the first 5 games in terms of match readiness. Could we have done more to prevent that? I dont know. 

But if we are going to say getting players in early is important (I would agree) then Farke also deserves a little bit of leeway for not having a proper pre season with the players we did have!

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

No that's fair, my more general point though is that he may have performed better here and ended up playing more than at Brentford. 

I also think this season has been a sobering lesson in the need to get key signings in early. Had we just paid up for Ajer we would have had a key signing in place for pre season and the kick off. Similarly Andrich would likey have been in place for the Liverpool game based on when he signed for Leverkusen. Instead we ended up bringing in Kabak and Normann far too late. It may be that if those two joined in July rather than end of August they may have had a much bigger impact.

As a matter of interest, how much did Bayer Leverkeusen have to pay for Andrich? Bearing in mind transfer fees are I think higher when Premier League clubs are involved; The emphasis has been on his supposed wage demands being the stumbling block, but if he was going to be one of Farke's only three signings then the fee might have been as well.

[king canary 7,605]

11 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

As a matter of interest, how much did Bayer Leverkeusen have to pay for Andrich? Bearing in mind transfer fees are I think higher when Premier League clubs are involved; The emphasis has been on his supposed wage demands being the stumbling block, but if he was going to be one of Farke's only three signings then the fee might have been as well.

Reportedly only around €6.5m, not sure what that translates to in £ these days but not a huge fee.

[glory.win or die. 270]

Recruitment has and always will be the most important part of a club.

For some reason, I thought our new identity under Webber was a Recruitment team fit for purpose  finding Buendia type successes but as far as I can see our best signings weren't found,but were already known by Farke  which begs the question what does the scouting  team actually do.

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

As a matter of interest, how much did Bayer Leverkeusen have to pay for Andrich? Bearing in mind transfer fees are I think higher when Premier League clubs are involved; The emphasis has been on his supposed wage demands being the stumbling block, but if he was going to be one of Farke's only three signings then the fee might have been as well.

I suspect that his demands to sign for Norwich City would also be very different to those he’d lay down to join Leverkusen. The divisional clause a likely stumbling block given we’d been relegated x amount of times recently for instance. How much of an additional premium would we have to pay to entice a player to relocate for a very likely relegation battle and the potential for only one season at that level of earning? What clauses and guarantees would he want to protect against that? 

I’m not saying it’s impossible or that we shouldn’t try or perhaps have pushed the boat out a bit, but I think it’s likely that it’s a bit more than just a wage figure? 

[Nuff Said 5,131]

1 hour ago, Wishbone said:

Dean Smith saying the players haven't been good enough, albeit after relegation was confirmed, might sow doubt in some players as well. I guess the facts to back this opinion but wouldn't you question a manager that says this after continually spreading the message the players are good enough earlier on?! Deep down, did DS ever believe they were good enough.

Eh?

Smith might have sowed doubt in some players now, and this somehow went back through time and affected their play before he said it???

And we should question a manager who praises his team and tries to gee them up? Seriously?

[aBee 151]

Ajer has been superb. His absence through injury pretty much exactly coincided with our poor midseason run. Since his return he’s also played decently as RB against the less strong teams. 
 

It’s interesting reading this thread to get a different angle to the one about Norwich not being able to buy him due to wages- that always seemed to me to be implausible because I think you will operate on a similar and possibly higher budget than us. Quite why your DoF thought he could get on a free a player there were other clubs willing to buy in the summer I don’t know. For the sake of argument had he still been at Celtic what possible appeal would Norwich have had for him in January as Jsnuary 21 turned out? Maybe Webber backed his buys to have turned out much better and that Ajer would have been a cheap squad addition for a second season delivered by the guys you actually bought. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 minutes ago, aBee said:

Ajer has been superb. His absence through injury pretty much exactly coincided with our poor midseason run. Since his return he’s also played decently as RB against the less strong teams. 
 

It’s interesting reading this thread to get a different angle to the one about Norwich not being able to buy him due to wages- that always seemed to me to be implausible because I think you will operate on a similar and possibly higher budget than us. Quite why your DoF thought he could get on a free a player there were other clubs willing to buy in the summer I don’t know. For the sake of argument had he still been at Celtic what possible appeal would Norwich have had for him in January as Jsnuary 21 turned out? Maybe Webber backed his buys to have turned out much better and that Ajer would have been a cheap squad addition for a second season delivered by the guys you actually bought. 

It’s not been confirmed the comment about getting him on a free. It’s just gossip.

With all respect, coming on another teams forum after they have been relegated and crowing about your own team is a d**k move. It’s a bank holiday it’s sad you’re spending it trawling through a Norwich message board.

[Nuff Said 5,131]

3 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

It's interesting/telling that the dwindling number of advocates of Webber's decision to sack Farke for his own failings are resorting to such hyperbole.

Wow. Lighten up.

 

I also seem to remember you using a fair amount of hyperbole about Dean Smith, and not in a joking way either. (You do realise what I wrote was not to be taken literally?)

[canarydan23 4,060]

11 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Wow. Lighten up.

 

I also seem to remember you using a fair amount of hyperbole about Dean Smith, and not in a joking way either. (You do realise what I wrote was not to be taken literally?)

Yes. That's why I called it hyperbole;

"exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally"

Capiche?

[Robert N. LiM 4,340]

35 minutes ago, aBee said:

Ajer has been superb. His absence through injury pretty much exactly coincided with our poor midseason run. Since his return he’s also played decently as RB against the less strong teams. 
 

It’s interesting reading this thread to get a different angle to the one about Norwich not being able to buy him due to wages- that always seemed to me to be implausible because I think you will operate on a similar and possibly higher budget than us. Quite why your DoF thought he could get on a free a player there were other clubs willing to buy in the summer I don’t know. For the sake of argument had he still been at Celtic what possible appeal would Norwich have had for him in January as Jsnuary 21 turned out? Maybe Webber backed his buys to have turned out much better and that Ajer would have been a cheap squad addition for a second season delivered by the guys you actually bought. 

Interesting, thanks for the input. Fwiw, I didn't read it as "crowing" at all. Always good to have thoughtful fans of other clubs giving their perspective.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Reportedly only around €6.5m, not sure what that translates to in £ these days but not a huge fee.

Thanks. Certainly not beyond us even with a Premier League premium. But as Duncan says, there may have been other stumbling blocks.

[king canary 7,605]

1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

I suspect that his demands to sign for Norwich City would also be very different to those he’d lay down to join Leverkusen. The divisional clause a likely stumbling block given we’d been relegated x amount of times recently for instance. How much of an additional premium would we have to pay to entice a player to relocate for a very likely relegation battle and the potential for only one season at that level of earning? What clauses and guarantees would he want to protect against that? 

I’m not saying it’s impossible or that we shouldn’t try or perhaps have pushed the boat out a bit, but I think it’s likely that it’s a bit more than just a wage figure? 

Yes I was going to say similar. It may be he wanted £60k to move country and play for a team with a solid chance of relegation but would take less to stay in Germany in Europe. You'd have to imagine that players knowing the kind of money premier league teams get ask for something a little higher.

It could be he wanted £60k and only a 20% wage drop on relegation. 

It is interesting though that the director of Leverkusen said they couldn't match the wages offered to a target by a newly promoted Premier League club soodt out (putting two and two together he was likely meaning Ajer and Brentford). So it feels unlikely Leverkusen were blowing us out of the water when it comes to wages.

[mannings bandy legs 385]

4 hours ago, Wishbone said:

Dean Smith saying the players haven't been good enough, albeit after relegation was confirmed, might sow doubt in some players as well. I guess the facts to back this opinion but wouldn't you question a manager that says this after continually spreading the message the players are good enough earlier on?! Deep down, did DS ever believe they were good enough.

When he arrived he stated he was surprised at the quality. ....surprised how bad it was!!

[chicken 2,624]

On 30/04/2022 at 20:26, hogesar said:

Bailey is usually very much on the money when it comes to all things NCFC. He certainly won't have just made it up.

I thought it was rumoured at the time too. Could be wrong.