Michael Bailey Athletic Article

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

10 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

What a superb article. LOADS of points I pulled out of it above and beyond what has been mentioned. 

1. Lukas Rupp likely to depart
2. Normann signed on wages "not far off" what Andrich wanted
3. Farke wanted just three signings; a marquee centre back, a Skipp replacement DM and a Buendia replacement forward
4. The plan to sign quality over quantity changed when behind the scenes people panicked over Farke's brutal training and feeling injuries would catch them out
5. Club feels they got over the odds for Buendia. 
6. Ajer wasn't signed because only prepared to pay £10m and felt could get him free in Jan
7. Kieran Scott was on gardening leave from start of summer window - led Webber to be more hands on which meant a greater leaning on agents
8. Todd Cantwell failed to respond to every trick in Smith's and Shakey's playbook
9. Current side felt "too quiet". Want to change culture to one where players challenge each other more rather than accepting defeat. 

Really great article which I recommend you read if you can.

That would have left us with Hernandez as our winger and a strike force with Idah and Hugill as the back-ups/replacements for Pukki. Three players who had at  that point given no sign (and indeed still have not) of being close to Premier League class.

I am dubious about the Ajer claim, which doesn't tie in with the marquee centre back line as one of the three signings, which presumably means in the summer window rather than the winter, and it would have been naive in the extreme to expect Ajer was still going to be available in the winter.

Without defending the specific mistakes that were made (the loss of Kieran Scott seems not to have helped), our financial model does make it hard to attract players good enough for the Premier League, but that is not the only problem. We are not a glamour/London club, and we are known as a yo-yo club.

If you are Robert Andrich, for example, you have played your whole career in Germany, and have the chance to move up within the Bundesliga. You balance that against joining an English club you might well want to leave in a year's time because they are back in the Championship.

It was easier pre-Brexit, and especially in the Championship, because for many of the players we signed early on we represented a real step up. Supposedly in Zimmermann's case he was about to give up football. Last summer not only would that kind of lower-league player have been ruled out, but anyway we were trying to get in a higher-class of player who would have been legally available, as with Andrich, but far harder to persuade.

I suspect we will be getting more inside info/spin about last summer now we have been relegated, especially from Davitt and Southwell. The Bailey info presumably has come from Carrow Road as at least a partial pre-emptive explanation as why it went so badly.

I am not sure how to read the Ma****er stuff. Some of it, about loans, doesn't seem to add up, and he seems to have a downer on the club, or perhaps on Webber, so there may be a bit of personal animus there. The Daily Telegraph piece looks more reliable.

[komakino 272]

7 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Maybe Farkes record may have been better if he'd have been given his 3 players of quality over the 11 dross he got? Something many of us have said for months. 

You're right. 

Although he would still had to adapt 'Farkeball' to a degree, it would have meant a more transitional move back to the EPL and everyone would have benefited. Whether it would have been enough, who knows, but Webber has made a complete Horlicks of this season. 

I was recently speaking to a member of CR staff and they couldn't understand either why Webber had bought as many players as he did, when we needed less, but higher quality players. 

In Webber we trust? Never again! 

Edited May 1, 2022 by komakino

[Ulfotto 622]

6 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Maybe Farkes record may have been better if he'd have been given his 3 players of quality over the 11 dross he got? Something many of us have said for months. 

Maybe I would argue the time to push the boat out for 3 quality players was 19/20.

I love Farke but if he would have continued it would be even more toxic than it is now.

[Tommo 51]

Good article by Bailey albeit painful to read , alongside the other journalists comments reported on this forum following relegation being confirmed. 
 

the sad truth is that of all the signings made in the summer (excluding loans) there is only Rashica which an argument can be made in terms of it being a moderately successful signing and one should we cash in getting us more than our money back. The likes of Sargent, Tzolis etc are going to be losses 

[komakino 272]

2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

That would have left us with Hernandez as our winger and a strike force with Idah and Hugill as the back-ups/replacements for Pukki. Three players who had at  that point given no sign (and indeed still have not) of being close to Premier League class.

I am dubious about the Ajer claim, which doesn't tie in with the marquee centre back line as one of the three signings, which presumably means in the summer window rather than the winter, and it would have been naive in the extreme to expect Ajer was still going to be available in the winter.

Without defending the specific mistakes that were made (the loss of Kieran Scott seems not to have helped), our financial model does make it hard to attract players good enough for the Premier League, but that is not the only problem. We are not a glamour/London club, and we are known as a yo-yo club.

If you are Robert Andrich, for example, you have played your whole career in Germany, and have the chance to move up within the Bundesliga. You balance that against joining an English club you might well want to leave in a year's time because they are back in the Championship.

It was easier pre-Brexit, and especially in the Championship, because for many of the players we signed early on we represented a real step up. Supposedly in Zimmermann's case he was about to give up football. Last summer not only would that kind of lower-league player have been ruled out, but anyway we were trying to get in a higher-class of player who would have been legally available, as with Andrich, but far harder to persuade.

I suspect we will be getting more inside info/spin about last summer now we have been relegated, especially from Davitt and Southwell. The Bailey info presumably has come from Carrow Road as at least a partial pre-emptive explanation as why it went so badly.

I am not sure how to read the Ma****er stuff. Some of it, about loans, doesn't seem to add up, and he seems to have a downer on the club, or perhaps on Webber, so there may be a bit of personal animus there. The Daily Telegraph piece looks more reliable.

Location wise, Norwich City have always had an issue with recruitment. Always will.

However, if you are successful and/or the wages are better, some players will travel those extra miles. 

As I've mentioned on here before, Norwich must be a difficult sell on the basis of the ownership model and that they aren't really interested in the EPL. 

The 'yo-yo' tag is only a part of the problem. It isn't that we consistently get relegated, it's our owners attitude to the EPL and how we approach it.

We need serious owners in a serious business, who bring something to the table.  We do not have that and I suspect that Delia & Michael will at least, be in partly relieved that they will no longer be involved in the EPL next season and take their moral high ground back to The Championship. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

9 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

Suspect Farke made this feeling know, hence him not only being shown the door but in a sly and disrespectful way too. 

He also lost nearly every game that season. This seems to be lost in the analysis.

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

Just now, hertfordyellow said:

He also lost nearly every game that season. This seems to be lost in the analysis.

Again if he'd been given the 3 players of quality over 11 dross that may have been different. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 minutes ago, komakino said:

Location wise, Norwich City have always had an issue with recruitment. Always will.

However, if you are successful and/or the wages are better, some players will travel those extra miles. 

As I've mentioned on here before, Norwich must be a difficult sell on the basis of the ownership model and that they aren't really interested in the EPL. 

The 'yo-yo' tag is only a part of the problem. It isn't that we consistently get relegated, it's our owners attitude to the EPL and how we approach it.

We need serious owners in a serious business, who bring something to the table.  We do not have that and I suspect that Delia & Michael will at least, be in partly relieved that they will no longer be involved in the EPL next season and take their moral high ground back to The Championship. 

The location is for young players but it’s actually a selling point for family men. Plenty of players have mentioned the area, schools etc as a selling point. Huckerby especially.

[hertfordyellow 460]

10 minutes ago, Tommo said:

Good article by Bailey albeit painful to read , alongside the other journalists comments reported on this forum following relegation being confirmed. 
 

the sad truth is that of all the signings made in the summer (excluding loans) there is only Rashica which an argument can be made in terms of it being a moderately successful signing and one should we cash in getting us more than our money back. The likes of Sargent, Tzolis etc are going to be losses 

It’s too early to write them off. Tzolis was 19 when he signed, the same age as Maddison when he joined.

[hertfordyellow 460]

3 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Again if he'd been given the 3 players of quality over 11 dross that may have been different. 

Sure but he didn’t handle the situation well at all.  As the article say’s he pretty much told them they would be relegated. Opposite to say Lambert’s ability to get players to not ‘believe the myth’ of the Premiership.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

4 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

The location is for young players but it’s actually a selling point for family men. Plenty of players have mentioned the area, schools etc as a selling point. Huckerby especially.

I think increasingly it's an attraction for young players with the right attitude as well. I've seen several quoted saying "I can get my head down and focus on my game here", and several of our under 23's turned down bigger clubs apparently. 

[king canary 7,562]

9 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

You should read the article. There's plenty of criticism of Farke within it. 

Yeah I'm a touch confused how anyone reads it and think Farke comes out of it looking good.

Certainly the recruitment was bad and deserves to be the main focus but the stuff about the players knowing Farke didn't think they were good enough and how quiet and easily accepting of defeats the team is points to issues with the manager too.

[Tommo 51]

6 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

It’s too early to write them off. Tzolis was 19 when he signed, the same age as Maddison when he joined.

I hope I am proven wrong and that Tzolis comes back to pre season with a fresh energy about him ready to restart his NCFC career. The key difference with Maddison though is that he is our record signing and I genuinely think the lad is probably homesick and in need of a move back abroad with a different style of play. All for up and coming talent being acquired but we paid too much for him and could have used the money to get Ajer and some of the other reported Bailey targets that we didn’t close deals out for as they were too rich for us. Tzolis at £9m was too rich IMO

[king canary 7,562]

5 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Sure but he didn’t handle the situation well at all.  As the article say’s he pretty much told them they would be relegated. Opposite to say Lambert’s ability to get players to not ‘believe the myth’ of the Premiership.

Yeah Lambert was who I thought of too. Players like Holt, Hoolahan and others have said how Lambert made them believe they were good enough and belonged their despite having spent their careers kicking around the lower leagues. That softer part of management is so important. 

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

7 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Sure but he didn’t handle the situation well at all.  As the article say’s he pretty much told them they would be relegated. Opposite to say Lambert’s ability to get players to not ‘believe the myth’ of the Premiership.

Yeah, I'd, agree with that. I also agree with your other comment about it being too early to write the likes of Tzolis off, but last season wasn't the time for those types of signing, we needed immediate improvements to hopefully stay up in the 1st season, then move on to a more long term recruitment drive. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 minutes ago, Tommo said:

I hope I am proven wrong and that Tzolis comes back to pre season with a fresh energy about him ready to restart his NCFC career. The key difference with Maddison though is that he is our record signing and I genuinely think the lad is probably homesick and in need of a move back abroad with a different style of play. All for up and coming talent being acquired but we paid too much for him and could have used the money to get Ajer and some of the other reported Bailey targets that we didn’t close deals out for as they were too rich for us. Tzolis at £9m was too rich IMO

If he leaves and we lose money then it obviously is too rich but disagree it’s a lot of money for a young talented player with European and International recognition. Young players with one Championship season are being touted as 15+ million. If he stays and has a good season then he will be well worth the fee.

[BroadstairsR 2,137]

8 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Yeah, I'd, agree with that. I also agree with your other comment about it being too early to write the likes of Tzolis off, but last season wasn't the time for those types of signing, we needed immediate improvements to hopefully stay up in the 1st season, then move on to a more long term recruitment drive. 

Whilst I do not necessarily feel success next season depends upon the likes of Tzolis coming good and Sargent turning into a fan's favourite, both in a less demanding environment, it would be a major addition to our hopes should this happen.

I have a feeling it might.

Rashica was  a bit  poor yesterday. Could that really have been his last game for City, with moves afoot, or was it just a bad day for him?

I would be more bothered if we didn't have ample back-up.

Edited May 1, 2022 by BroadstairsR

[hogesar 9,611]

9 hours ago, GJP said:

Players also know though. Experienced, proven and/or higher quality players will look around and think "He gives the ball away too much" or "He isn't quick enough" or... "He's sh*t".

Agreed, but as Head Coach in-season, you can't show that or even a glimpse of it especially when there's a number of young players who don't fit your description

 

[shefcanary 2,377]

56 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

The location is for young players but it’s actually a selling point for family men. Plenty of players have mentioned the area, schools etc as a selling point. Huckerby especially.

I think if the Academy develops strongly over the next few years, it will actually change the "social environment" around the club and the City.  With the  educational institutions (UEA and the colleges) and the cultural infrastructure in the City already there, the improving connections promised (Road, rail & air), all it will take is the hospitality sector to raise their game a notch and even this excuse should disappear! Even now the social media of current players is full of trips to European capitals for long weekends mid-season. 

[Actually thinking about it, perhaps jet lag has had something to do with our **** poor performance this season].

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

39 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Whilst I do not necessarily feel success next season depends upon the likes of Tzolis coming good and Sargent turning into a fan's favourite, both in a less demanding environment, it would be a major addition to our hopes should this happen.

I have a feeling it might.

Rashica was  a bit  poor yesterday. Could that really have been his last game for City, with moves afoot, or was it just a bad day for him?

I would be more bothered if we didn't have ample back-up.

How many good games has Rashica really had? I can’t see him being next year and really hope we recoup our outlay on him

[Monty13 2,229]

54 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I'm a touch confused how anyone reads it and think Farke comes out of it looking good.

Certainly the recruitment was bad and deserves to be the main focus but the stuff about the players knowing Farke didn't think they were good enough and how quiet and easily accepting of defeats the team is points to issues with the manager too.

I think the view, well at least this is my opinion, is Farke clearly new what was actually needed this season.

The trouble is he allowed the opposite to happen and took his new contract, then he basically destroyed any remaining chance of us being successful with negativity.

I agree Farke doesn’t come across well other than having the right idea, seems his execution lost him his job, which has always been my own view personally.

[AJ 1,218]

1 hour ago, Tommo said:

Good article by Bailey albeit painful to read , alongside the other journalists comments reported on this forum following relegation being confirmed. 
 

the sad truth is that of all the signings made in the summer (excluding loans) there is only Rashica which an argument can be made in terms of it being a moderately successful signing and one should we cash in getting us more than our money back. The likes of Sargent, Tzolis etc are going to be losses 

Absolutely, we only signed two Premier League quality players, one is Rashica who coming in from a foreign league took too long to get going and even then had no service to do anything productive. The other is Brandon Williams who for me has been our most consistent performer all season and be it not for Krul would probably be my player of the season. The rest of the signings were utter tosh and no where near Premier League standard and I completely agree we'll struggle to get our money back for them if they decide to leave/we want to sell

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Yeah I'm a touch confused how anyone reads it and think Farke comes out of it looking good.

Certainly the recruitment was bad and deserves to be the main focus but the stuff about the players knowing Farke didn't think they were good enough and how quiet and easily accepting of defeats the team is points to issues with the manager too.

I think it comes across as a builder tells his superiors what he needs to build a house but is given something completely different and them grumbles as he tries and, understandably, fails to build the house according to plans.

Yes, it's a poor attitude, but many have claimed even Pep or Kopp couldn't keep this team up, so perhaps he was unable to convince himself of a lie and it shone through?

Imagine a parallel universe where we push the boat out and put a better offer than Brentford for Ajer and Wissa and then paid Andrich (who has been fantastic for Leverkusen) what he wanted. Farke gets his three quality signings that he wanted and we probably stay up. We certainly do a lot better than we have.

The article certainly doesn't give any evidence to those trying to pin some of the blame for the appalling summer recruitment on Farke, and it's the summer recruitment that has ultimately relegated us.

[hertfordyellow 460]

27 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I think if the Academy develops strongly over the next few years, it will actually change the "social environment" around the club and the City.  With the  educational institutions (UEA and the colleges) and the cultural infrastructure in the City already there, the improving connections promised (Road, rail & air), all it will take is the hospitality sector to raise their game a notch and even this excuse should disappear! Even now the social media of current players is full of trips to European capitals for long weekends mid-season. 

[Actually thinking about it, perhaps jet lag has had something to do with our **** poor performance this season].

There are a couple of academy players on instagram who mostly post how hard they work but it’s quite enlightening. They are so focused, completely bought into the science, see academic side as still worthwhile. So far removed from the old boot room approach.

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I think it comes across as a builder tells his superiors what he needs to build a house but is given something completely different and them grumbles as he tries and, understandably, fails to build the house according to plans.

Yes, it's a poor attitude, but many have claimed even Pep or Kopp couldn't keep this team up, so perhaps he was unable to convince himself of a lie and it shone through?

Imagine a parallel universe where we push the boat out and put a better offer than Brentford for Ajer and Wissa and then paid Andrich (who has been fantastic for Leverkusen) what he wanted. Farke gets his three quality signings that he wanted and we probably stay up. We certainly do a lot better than we have.

The article certainly doesn't give any evidence to those trying to pin some of the blame for the appalling summer recruitment on Farke, and it's the summer recruitment that has ultimately relegated us.

Would you still bring in the loans though? Are you also counting the obligations to buy the two loans from last season? Without those six, the squad in terms of depth is extremely threadbare. I get the criticism of how thin the money was spent but the just ‘three signings’ argument does have its issues too.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

i still think that a player like Sargent with his transfer fee and wages just say for example £12million over 4 years 

what is wrong with saying getting a free agent and paying him 12million with signing on fee etc  over 4 years they still cost the same 

but you would get or should get a far better player 

[Dogbo Daggins 25]

14 hours ago, KeiranShikari said:

If we promote next season I wonder if we might go for 3 expensive players and not 10 less so.

Unfortunately most expensive players do not want to sign for a relegation candidate.

[Nuff Said 5,082]

10 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I think it comes across as a builder tells his superiors what he needs to build a house but is given something completely different and them grumbles as he tries and, understandably, fails to build the house according to plans.

Yes, it's a poor attitude, but many have claimed even Pep or Kopp couldn't keep this team up, so perhaps he was unable to convince himself of a lie and it shone through?

Imagine a parallel universe where we push the boat out and put a better offer than Brentford for Ajer and Wissa and then paid Andrich (who has been fantastic for Leverkusen) what he wanted. Farke gets his three quality signings that he wanted and we probably stay up. We certainly do a lot better than we have.

The article certainly doesn't give any evidence to those trying to pin some of the blame for the appalling summer recruitment on Farke, and it's the summer recruitment that has ultimately relegated us.

Let’s face it, if Farke came round and set fire to your house, you’d be saying “well, it did need redecorating “. 

 He had two attempts at adapting a team with players easily good enough to win promotion from the Championship to the necessities of the PL - which several of our rivals have managed - and failed miserably at both. Many of the identified weaknesses (not all by any means) are down to him. He had a great run with us, but he’d had more than enough rope and it was time to go.

[KeiranShikari 1,403]

2 minutes ago, Dogbo Daggins said:

Unfortunately most expensive players do not want to sign for a relegation candidate.

SOme, but a lot will if you pay them the going rate.

[Tommo 51]

1 hour ago, hertfordyellow said:

If he leaves and we lose money then it obviously is too rich but disagree it’s a lot of money for a young talented player with European and International recognition. Young players with one Championship season are being touted as 15+ million. If he stays and has a good season then he will be well worth the fee.

I do hope he does - my issue though is that he clearly isn’t ready to make immediate impact on the prem league and it was unrealistic gamble that he would be given age and his level of playing experience. If he was being bought for the future then £9m when budget is tight and we needed more immediate impact quality players was not the right decision