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The Villa transfer raid in progress

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13 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

How about Jacob Sorensen!

He’s a good player and should have been given a chance

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5 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

He’s a good player and should have been given a chance

Yep, sure should!   If I was him, I’d be out of there sharpish!    He’s been treated terribly!

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1 minute ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Yep, sure should!   If I was him, I’d be out of there sharpish!    He’s been treated terribly!

The Danish King of Spain?

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3 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I am!   See above!   

I know, but from now on be prepared for Jim to treat your posts as official statements of absolute fact!

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6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I know, but from now on be prepared for Jim to treat your posts as official statements of absolute fact!

Fair point!   I am forewarned!   😉

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Getting linked to every Villa player possibly on their way out.

Would be a bit weird to go for another 20yr old striker when we have Sargent and Idah, unless neither of them are sticking about. If anything, we need a mid-late twenties striker with some pedigree to come in and help Pukki. Perhaps a loan for Idah to get him regular game time - unless Hugill goes and Idah is used in that sort of role.

Wingers... we'd need to get shot of a few first.

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1 hour ago, hertfordyellow said:

Both you and the original poster can be wrong. It’s not exclusive.

I'll stand by my comment I don't like to see players from the managers previous club follow him. If he's got an incite into a great player that will work out then good, but generally and it's just a sense I have and it's not something that inspires confidence for me. I don't have to be right or wrong about it to comment. Not getting much of a good sense from you either.

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4 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Your point is just doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result, you're right, its not rocket science, its madness! 

[snip]

Can you credibly answer these questions above?   or.... do you expect a loan player or two will get us promoted next season, that consequently will gain us the promotion money that will be spent well on enough players to make us competitive next time.  That's a lot of things that need to fall into place, especially when recent evidence suggests we aren't that clever when selecting players and spending the resources we have.    

 

(I’ve avoided quoting your whole post to save everyone having to scroll through pages, but if you think I’ve missed something important, apologies)

I’m struggling to understand why what you describe as my expectations need “a lot of things to fall into place” but your plan doesn’t. You have *no* way of knowing that building slowly and developing players will leave us any better off than we are now, but there seems to be some value in it to you just because it’s different from what we’re currently doing. When in practice the way the club is being run has delivered two PL promotions in three years. Do you really think we’d be better off next season if we hadn’t been promoted last time? How long  do you think it would be before supporters start on the club because we are “stuck” in the Championship? Three years? That’s a lot of slack in view of our recent success.
 

The thing I think posters like you and Dr Greenthumb miss is that there is a difference between plan and execution. There’s (potentially) nothing wrong with our plan, but we have carried it out poorly on promotion so far. Something very similar has worked for clubs like Brentford and Burnley. We just need to recruit better. Each time we go up, the club is better resourced. Of course it would be preferable to stay up and not have to bounce between divisions but it gives us more resources to invest in the foundations of the club as well as making us more attractive to potential recruits. If we spend a few years as also rans in the Championship promotion race, we will have to cut our cloth to suit our budget and quality will suffer. Unless we pull a few miracles out of the bag like Emi and Teemu, we will probably struggle. Every time to get promoted, it contributes to the resources the club has to invest.

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59 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Yep, sure should!   If I was him, I’d be out of there sharpish!    He’s been treated terribly!

I'm not sure he's been treated terribly. What if he's showing naff all in training in between the several injuries he's had?

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8 hours ago, hogesar said:

I'm not sure he's been treated terribly. What if he's showing naff all in training in between the several injuries he's had?

Paul McGrath.never trained at Villa but he turned up on a Saturday and is still a legend there.   Lungi has done enough on the pitch to deserve a run of games and consideration from the bench and he doesn’t get a look in.    That would not be a problem if 1) our midfield was performing 2) half of it wasn’t pretty ineffective loans. 
 

I do appreciate your point under normal circumstances but ours aren’t normal.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Paul McGrath.never trained at Villa but he turned up on a Saturday and is still a legend there.   Lungi has done enough on the pitch to deserve a run of games and consideration from the bench and he doesn’t get a look in.    That would not be a problem if 1) our midfield was performing 2) half of it wasn’t pretty ineffective loans. 
 

I do appreciate your point under normal circumstances but ours aren’t normal.

You have a habit of quoting examples as if they prove your argument. All donkeys have ears, my aunts have ears. That doesn’t make my aunts donkeys.

Edited by Nuff Said

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17 hours ago, KiwiScot said:

I'm always a bit concerned when a manager tries to sign players from his last club as for some reason it strikes me that they can't identify any new ones.

Apparently it's known as 'Rondon Syndrome'.

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1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Paul McGrath.never trained at Villa but he turned up on a Saturday and is still a legend there.   Lungi has done enough on the pitch to deserve a run of games and consideration from the bench and he doesn’t get a look in.    That would not be a problem if 1) our midfield was performing 2) half of it wasn’t pretty ineffective loans. 
 

I do appreciate your point under normal circumstances but ours aren’t normal.

He was given a run of games and then got a nasty injury. It’s not a conspiracy against him.

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9 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

(I’ve avoided quoting your whole post to save everyone having to scroll through pages, but if you think I’ve missed something important, apologies)

I’m struggling to understand why what you describe as my expectations need “a lot of things to fall into place” but your plan doesn’t. You have *no* way of knowing that building slowly and developing players will leave us any better off than we are now, but there seems to be some value in it to you just because it’s different from what we’re currently doing. When in practice the way the club is being run has delivered two PL promotions in three years. Do you really think we’d be better off next season if we hadn’t been promoted last time? How long  do you think it would be before supporters start on the club because we are “stuck” in the Championship? Three years? That’s a lot of slack in view of our recent success.
 

The thing I think posters like you and Dr Greenthumb miss is that there is a difference between plan and execution. There’s (potentially) nothing wrong with our plan, but we have carried it out poorly on promotion so far. Something very similar has worked for clubs like Brentford and Burnley. We just need to recruit better. Each time we go up, the club is better resourced. Of course it would be preferable to stay up and not have to bounce between divisions but it gives us more resources to invest in the foundations of the club as well as making us more attractive to potential recruits. If we spend a few years as also rans in the Championship promotion race, we will have to cut our cloth to suit our budget and quality will suffer. Unless we pull a few miracles out of the bag like Emi and Teemu, we will probably struggle. Every time to get promoted, it contributes to the resources the club has to invest.

I agree there are no guarantees but I am pretty sure a promotion next season will be too soon and would cause the fans so much distress it could ruin what this club is about.   
 

I believe on the balance of probability that if we continue on a path of developing young players and most importantly giving them opportunities we will continue to have a competitive Championship side long-term.    A side that can be afforded and can play attractive football and with with better decisions / choices we can develop a stronger team with more depth to it and a playing philosophy that could survive in the EPL.    But it takes longer than one season, it may take 3, 5 or longer especially if we decided to build a legacy culture but if the club are transparent about it, identify their failings and provide us with honesty it is doable!    
 

I don’t buy into this rubbish that we’ll end up like Ipswich if we don’t get promoted next year!     What we need right now is to take stock, identify the failings and learn lessons.   Loans have been failings.   The fans have less affinity with loan players, are frustrated , even infuriated with what happened this year.     We have to have a competitive team before we go up and as I said, if we don’t have that then we will find our level.    Personally, I would prefer us to be true to our philosophy and be mid-table in the Championship rather than suffer this indignity.   
 

I sure recognise that plans and execution are different, don’t see how you can argue your suggestion is any different in that regard but these resources we are gathering from promotions, where are they?   How are we in a better position?   We blew it all and have nothing to show for it right now.    Not even in the plying staff, Rashica is not bad, Sargent will never be good enough and Tzolis, we can only hope we haven’t destroyed his career before it started!    Our development strategy has been far more successful than our scouting and signing of new first team players so unless we find solution or decent scouts, we are better off doing what we do better (developing) and saving the money!   All you did in the first instance was provide a half-arsed dig at my post without providing any substance to your point.    I responded with a position backed up by reasoning.   You’ve added some detail to your point but imo there’s no evidence it’s workable or sustainable unless we are very astute and lucky with acquisitions and injuries.   

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1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

You have a habit of quoting examples as if they prove your argument. All donkeys have ears, my aunts have ears. That doesn’t make my aunts donkeys.

What’s your problem!   I am just putting my views and opinion on a forum that I’m entitled to contribute too!   Thing is, I actually back that up with reasoning and justification whether you agree with it or not!   Many do agree with what I post!   Many can’t back up their points and arguments and often spout absolute rubbish and hearsay!    

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35 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

He was given a run of games and then got a nasty injury. It’s not a conspiracy against him.

Never said it was, a conspiracy, just imo he deserves more opportunities.   Since the injury, he’s  been on the bench for what 10 games or more, not had a look in!    If he’s injured, what’s he doing on the bench!  
 

If he has any belief in himself, why stay when he keeps getting overlooked by under-performing players in a side desperately crying out for a CDM?      All I said was that’s how I would feel in his situation.   What’s wrong with that?

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Good points although I don't think we need to abandon the loan system altogether. Really we should have loaned out Sorenson (and Idah?) to get game time when we were last in the championship. Then when Skipp departed we may already have had a replacement ready to go

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11 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

If he has any belief in himself, why stay when he keeps getting overlooked by under-performing players in a side desperately crying out for a CDM?      All I said was that’s how I would feel in his situation.   What’s wrong with that?

I know I'm just an "ordinary punter" who has only ever played football at a Sunday League level, but I can't understand why he hasn't been given more opportunities. He seems such a cultured player to me - somebody recently pasted on here in a self-depreciative manner - "what do I know - I thought that Sorenson was going to be the next Bobby Moore?"

Obviously this is hyperbole, and I'm not making a direct comparison, but I know what he meant - the unflustered style, the time he seems to have and the anticipation. I can only assume that it is something to with his "physicality?"

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27 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Never said it was, a conspiracy, just imo he deserves more opportunities.   Since the injury, he’s  been on the bench for what 10 games or more, not had a look in!    If he’s injured, what’s he doing on the bench!  
 

If he has any belief in himself, why stay when he keeps getting overlooked by under-performing players in a side desperately crying out for a CDM?      All I said was that’s how I would feel in his situation.   What’s wrong with that?

He’s been back on the bench for 4 games after a lengthy and nasty injury. Before that he formed a midfield with Lees-Meleu. He may well get more games when he is fully fit. 
 

You can get as aggressive as you like, you misrepresented the situation to suit a narrative.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

He’s been back on the bench for 4 games after a lengthy and nasty injury. Before that he formed a midfield with Lees-Meleu. He may well get more games when he is fully fit. 
 

You can get as aggressive as you like, you misrepresented the situation to suit a narrative.

It’s 8!  You forced me to check.    That’s enough to justify my point so where did you get 4 from to suit your narrative!    How petty!   
… and where is the aggression?   

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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35 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

It’s 8!  You forced me to check.    That’s enough to justify my point so where did you get 4 from to suit your narrative!    How petty!   
… and where is the aggression?   

The tone is aggressive. He isn’t going to start straight after ligament damage. He could have come back into the team by now though. That said you airbrushed the starts and then unfortunate injury which showed he was given a chance.

Im going to trust the sports science team and coaching staff with decades of experience and all sorts of data to know what to do.

ok so if he took your advice and looked for this move, who is buying him? Where is this narrative that he a premiership player come from?

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I am concerned that so many posters seem to think Sorenson is the answer to our midfield.

Our midfield has been quite poor all season so any player who had something to offer should have a far easier opportunity to force himself into the team.

It has been said that he has not been given a chance. The time for him to force himself into the team is on the training pitch. Either he is not showing the right attitude, working hard enough or simply hasn't shown enough quality for the manager to give him that chance.

We are not just talking about the judgement of Dean Smith but also Craig Shakespeare. It must also be remembered Daniel Farke did not play him either. Perhaps the problem is not the managers but the player.

Any half decent player who cannot force himself into what has been a poor midfield must have problems somewhere. Hopefully if it's a niggling 'half injury' it will clear up and he will be able to show the people who matter what he can do because at the moment he doesn't seem to be doing that.

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16 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

And therein lies the conundrum, is it better to develop the playing squad for a few seasons running the risk of not getting promotion and therefore sinking into mediocrity or do we, once again, go up half baked and become the whipping boys we have the last couple of PL sojourns?

From a fans perspective, having to watch the abject failure over and over is simply  exhausting. Becoming emotionally invested at the start of the season, only to have it disintegrate at the pace of having one’s fingernails pulled out, is mind numbing. This is why fans become angry.

From a business owner’s perspective. It’s free money. Gain promotion to the PL, spend a few pounds to bolster the team and keep the fans sedated and hope it works out, pocket a few million. Rinse and repeat.

We fans are only able to watch it happen…over and over and over and over….. we raise our voices. We make our discontent known. But it just keeps happening. So, the question that must be asked is, throughout all of this abject failure, what is the common denominator?

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26 minutes ago, CirclePoint said:

We fans are only able to watch it happen…over and over and over and over….. we raise our voices. We make our discontent known. But it just keeps happening. So, the question that must be asked is, throughout all of this abject failure, what is the common denominator?

1) it's not abject failure though is it? Bumping along in the Championship for years, then being relegated to League 1 and failling to get out for years would be. I could probably think of an example here but why kick a dog when it's down. At the moment, we are alternating failure with success. Yes, that's some failure, but it's hardly abject.

2) Common denominator? Pretty clearly it's that our budget is way below most of the other clubs in the PL. Not all of them though, so we need to do what we do better and try and emulate them. Success is diffciult, especially sustaining it for more than one season (see Sheffield United) but it's NOT impossible.

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2 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

1) it's not abject failure though is it? Bumping along in the Championship for years, then being relegated to League 1 and failling to get out for years would be. I could probably think of an example here but why kick a dog when it's down. At the moment, we are alternating failure with success. Yes, that's some failure, but it's hardly abject.

2) Common denominator? Pretty clearly it's that our budget is way below most of the other clubs in the PL. Not all of them though, so we need to do what we do better and try and emulate them. Success is diffciult, especially sustaining it for more than one season (see Sheffield United) but it's NOT impossible.

It would help if we actually had owners that were interested in the EPL. That's the common denominator.  

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34 minutes ago, CirclePoint said:

From a business owner’s perspective. It’s free money. Gain promotion to the PL, spend a few pounds to bolster the team and keep the fans sedated and hope it works out, pocket a few million. Rinse and repeat.

Do you really, really believe that the owners "pocket the money?" If not, why say it?

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4 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

What’s your problem!   I am just putting my views and opinion on a forum that I’m entitled to contribute too!   Thing is, I actually back that up with reasoning and justification whether you agree with it or not!   Many do agree with what I post!   Many can’t back up their points and arguments and often spout absolute rubbish and hearsay!    

I don't have a problem. I am just putting my views in exactly the same way you are. Just beause I disagree with you, and continue to make my point, just as you do, doesn't make it personal.

 

And as I have pointed out, your "reasoning and justification" has been, in part at least, to quote one example as if that proves your point. It proves very little other than that a thing happened once which coincidentally agrees with a theory of yours.

 

Your reasoning and justification for refusing to use loans, staying in the Championship for several years and building a better team slowly appears to be that you think it will work - i've seen nothing more to back it up than that. If there are strong arguments to be made for the theory, do make them. But it's a fair theory, in many ways I like it.

 

However, I think it's is pretty clear that it costs money to run clubs successfully. Going up the PL gets us *more* money. Staying in the Championship brings in less money. Taking loans helped the team play better and achieve promotion Those ARE facts.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I don't have a problem. I am just putting my views in exactly the same way you are. Just beause I disagree with you, and continue to make my point, just as you do, doesn't make it personal.

 

And as I have pointed out, your "reasoning and justification" has been, in part at least, to quote one example as if that proves your point. It proves very little other than that a thing happened once which coincidentally agrees with a theory of yours.

 

Your reasoning and justification for refusing to use loans, staying in the Championship for several years and building a better team slowly appears to be that you think it will work - i've seen nothing more to back it up than that. If there are strong arguments to be made for the theory, do make them. But it's a fair theory, in many ways I like it.

 

However, I think it's is pretty clear that it costs money to run clubs successfully. Going up the PL gets us *more* money. Staying in the Championship brings in less money. Taking loans helped the team play better and achieve promotion Those ARE facts.

Delia was quoted a few years back that the club was 'no better off' if it got promoted (wages etc). While that isn't completely factually correct I can see where she was coming from in certain ways. 

Edited by komakino

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