Webber's youth signings

[priceyrice 123]

With Webber having been at the club for 5 years now I was just wondering whether any of his youth signings have come off. I know he has signed a huge number of youth players since joining and I wondered whether anyone knew if any of these have come off yet or look like they might in the next year or two. Was Rowe one of his? 

Webber had obviously benefited from selling a lot of the youngsters brought in by McNally but I am struggling to think of any who have made the grade who he has signed. I'm concerned this is just another scattergun approach which I believe is costing us more money than it is making us, similar to what we've seen this year with first team players. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

You may have heard of Andrew Omobamidele and Adam Idah. 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Omobamidele?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

If we've now got to attacking our youngsters and path to the first team I don't know where you can go next for a pound of flesh..

Edited April 5, 2022 by nutty nigel

[priceyrice 123]

Genuine question guys, I wasn't aware he signed Idah and Andrew so thats good to know! I genuinely think Omobamidele will prove a better defender than Godfrey and worth 20m plus when we come to sell him in a few years. 

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

Aren’t there quite a few knocking about? The American lad has been on the bench numerous times, Tony Springett was training with the first teamers this week, we’ve seen some debuts from lads now out on loan. I know they rate Tom Dickson-Peters highly but whether he makes it🤷🏻‍♂️. Flynn Clarke and Liam Gibbs another couple of names to look out for.

But then I always thought Isak Thorvaldsson would come through; trying to predict who will graduate is a minefield. 

[Indy 3,297]

17 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

If we've now got to attacking our youngsters and path to the first team I don't know where you can go next for a pound of flesh..

Indeed this is one area we can’t complain about! We have an abundance of very promising youngsters, certainly hope to see three or four of them breaking into the first team squad this season, ready for next year!

Edited April 5, 2022 by Indy

[canarycop 206]

Mair Mckracken Berry

Mumba Tompkinson Omabamidele Giurgi Adshead Mcalear Rowe Springett Idah Tzolis Dickson- Peters Kamara Gibbs Clarke Riley etc etc etc

 

Some good uns coming through.

The future is bright....The future is yellow

 

[priceyrice 123]

Good to see there is some positivity here. Guess we hear so much about those getting released I've forgotten about some of these other names which have been mentioned. 

[king canary 7,599]

We've done well with players we've signed aged 16 or similar who've gone through our youth system for a couple of seasons- Lewis, Aarons, Omobamidele, Idah etc etc. 

Where we've not got much so far is from the raft of players we've signed aged 17/18 from other teams that maybe have a bit of first team experience but not loads. Players like Bushri, Fitzpatrick, McClear, Raggatt, Abrahams, Soto etc etc have all failed thus far to make any real impact.

Saying that Adshead, Mumba and McCallum all could have involvement next season and I'm intrigued by Flynn Clarke too. Hopefully those guys make the step up.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

41 minutes ago, king canary said:

We've done well with players we've signed aged 16 or similar who've gone through our youth system for a couple of seasons- Lewis, Aarons, Omobamidele, Idah etc etc. 

Where we've not got much so far is from the raft of players we've signed aged 17/18 from other teams that maybe have a bit of first team experience but not loads. Players like Bushri, Fitzpatrick, McClear, Raggatt, Abrahams, Soto etc etc have all failed thus far to make any real impact.

Saying that Adshead, Mumba and McCallum all could have involvement next season and I'm intrigued by Flynn Clarke too. Hopefully those guys make the step up.

Josh Martin signed for us aged 17. I'm not trying to argue that he's been a success as yet, but he has played and scored for our first team. 

[DanTheMan 2]

I watched the U23s on Friday. I liked the look of Gibbs & Clarke and both have potential to break through next season. Adshead looked rusty but it was his first game back after injury.  Of the rest: Kamara looks like he needs a bit of building up physically; Shipley is an intelligent defender but for his age lacks a bit of pace; Warner has lots of pace but has a lot of learning to do; Stewart seems very one footed but has something about him.

[chicken 2,624]

2 hours ago, priceyrice said:

I'm concerned this is just another scattergun approach which I believe is costing us more money than it is making us, similar to what we've seen this year with first team players. 

Don't be. Loans bring in fees, and in most cases, as they're youngsters, they tend to be on low wages covered by the loaning club.

Is it a scattergun approach? Possibly. But then isn't it better to have more irons in the fire rather than just one?

I've been told on good authority, that some of the youth players we have signed have more than made back the fee we paid for them in loan fees. I am unable to confirm, but I believe Bushiri is one example of that.

[Yellow and Green 334]

I would argue that the academy has improved on two fronts since Webber arrived:

1) We actively look to give young players first team opportunities. 

2) Those who don't make it usually go on to have a career in the game, in leagues 1 and 2.

The criticism is that the most successful academy graduates were already here when they arrived. This is true but these things usually go in cycles. We're now coming to the end of the Max-Ben-Jamal-Todd era and we're now seeing another crop come though, who Webber will have signed.

For the ones who haven't made it, there will have only been a few who they had genuine expectations for - the likes of Soto, Bushiri and Martin - who had u21 international experience etc. They would've had high hopes for the others but we can't expect them all to work - especially when we're spending every other season in the PL.

We've had great academy success over the past 5 years and I genuinely hope that this 'pathway to the first team' continues long after Webber leaves.

[non-scoring strikers 113]

6 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

I would argue that the academy has improved on two fronts since Webber arrived:

1) We actively look to give young players first team opportunities. 

2) Those who don't make it usually go on to have a career in the game, in leagues 1 and 2.

The criticism is that the most successful academy graduates were already here when they arrived. This is true but these things usually go in cycles. We're now coming to the end of the Max-Ben-Jamal-Todd era and we're now seeing another crop come though, who Webber will have signed.

For the ones who haven't made it, there will have only been a few who they had genuine expectations for - the likes of Soto, Bushiri and Martin - who had u21 international experience etc. They would've had high hopes for the others but we can't expect them all to work - especially when we're spending every other season in the PL.

We've had great academy success over the past 5 years and I genuinely hope that this 'pathway to the first team' continues long after Webber leaves.

I beg your pardon but both your points here have been happening with Norwich youth products for years, long before Webber came here. 

[1902 1,167]

1 hour ago, non-scoring strikers said:

I beg your pardon but both your points here have been happening with Norwich youth products for years, long before Webber came here. 

Up to a point, but if we look at the youngsters who have started a decent number of games for Norwich in the last 5 years then we are looking at Lewis, Aarons, Godfrey, Maddison, Idah, Omabamidele and Cantwell. They have all been at one time or another fairly key parts of our squad.

In the five years before that, the only young player I can remember being an important part of the team was Redmond. Maybe that's not accurate but that's my feeling.

[Capt. Pants 4,225]

I'm not sure the OP was intending to criticise Webber in respect of our young players, but it would be extremely harsh to.

We do have some good young players coming through but they're always a bit of gamble as we won't know how they'll turn out for a few years possibly?

The reality is their future with NCFC is possibly better if we're not in the EPL where the focus tends to be on 'oven ready' players in so far as the first team is concerned.

Hopefully we can blood some of the youngsters next season.

[king canary 7,599]

2 hours ago, non-scoring strikers said:

I beg your pardon but both your points here have been happening with Norwich youth products for years, long before Webber came here. 

Not to the same level, certainly not in the Hughton/Adams/Neil years.

We basically only had the Murphy twins make the breakthrough in that time period.

One of the main things Webber identified was a lack of structured pathways from the youth teams to the first team. We saw Neil sign multiple left backs while refusing to give Toffolo a try, multiple keepers while refusing to play Rudd etc etc. Not saying those guys are world beaters but they went on to be solid Championship contributors elsewhere. Even players like Morris and McGeehan never really got a shot and have shown some ability at least in the second tier. We'll never know but with a better mapped out pathway these players could have been useful contributors for us and stopped us wasting money on short term players.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,158]

3 hours ago, non-scoring strikers said:

I beg your pardon but both your points here have been happening with Norwich youth products for years, long before Webber came here. 

Maybe you were asleep at the time, but one of the most baffling things that has happened in recent years at our club was Alex Neil's near refusal to play James Maddison. 

[TheGunnShow 5,937]

12 hours ago, priceyrice said:

Good to see there is some positivity here. Guess we hear so much about those getting released I've forgotten about some of these other names which have been mentioned. 

Always remember with youngsters that by definition, the majority will not make it. Even with all the coaching, scouting, careful management etc., you will invariably only have a small proportion that make it to the first team. Even then, if we get one like Carlton Morris, who got us about £200K, he will have paid for himself. The sales like Lewis, Maddison, Buendia, Godfrey, Murphy, etc. are the icing on the cake (or the visible part of the iceberg).

If you've not read Garry Nelson's excellent book Left Foot in the Grave, there's a short but very telling part about how youngsters don't make it when he was player-coach at Torquay. Clubs like us, and especially lower down the pyramid, can't turn down the opportunity to find a diamond - but by definition they're hard to get.

[NewNestCarrow 190]

33 minutes ago, king canary said:

One of the main things Webber identified was a lack of structured pathways from the youth teams to the first team. We saw Neil sign multiple left backs while refusing to give Toffolo a try, multiple keepers while refusing to play Rudd etc etc. Not saying those guys are world beaters but they went on to be solid Championship contributors elsewhere. Even players like Morris and McGeehan never really got a shot and have shown some ability at least in the second tier. We'll never know but with a better mapped out pathway these players could have been useful contributors for us and stopped us wasting money on short term players.

You mean like when we had Jamal Lewis in the building and went & signed James Husband as first-choice LB?

[king canary 7,599]

Just now, NewNestCarrow said:

You mean like when we had Jamal Lewis in the building and went & signed James Husband as first-choice LB?

Not quite no. 

The Tofollo example was at its most ridiculous in Neil's last January window. We sold Brady and Olsson and rather that giving Toffolo a chance we played Whittaker out of position and loaned in Dijks, before sending Toffolo out on loan again.

Going into the season with Farke Lewis had clearly been identified as a talent we thought could be in the first team. This doesn't mean you don't sign another player to give you an option in case that player doesn't make the grade of has some dips in form. But you don't actively play people out of position and sign expensive, short term options to block that players path.

[NewNestCarrow 190]

11 hours ago, chicken said:

Don't be. Loans bring in fees, and in most cases, as they're youngsters, they tend to be on low wages covered by the loaning club.

Is it a scattergun approach? Possibly. But then isn't it better to have more irons in the fire rather than just one?

I've been told on good authority, that some of the youth players we have signed have more than made back the fee we paid for them in loan fees. I am unable to confirm, but I believe Bushiri is one example of that.

I have heard this claim before, but I just don't buy it.  I think folk are just trying to put lipstick on a pig.

We signed Bushiri from Belgian top-flight as an U21 international We allegedly paid EU100k for his services, plus agents fees and, it is to be assumed, the player got a hefty pay-rise (we were a PL side)

Year 1: Bushiri went out on loan to a D3 club (Blackpool) & then back to the Belgian top-flight. The season was cut short due to covid. I can't see either of these deals producing much of a loan fee or major contribution to his wages. And every move sees an Agent getting paid.  This was also the last season that Bushiri was involved with the Belgian national set-up

Year 2: Bushiri went back to Belgian top-flight on loan, switching again mid-season. His season was cut short due to injury.  

Year 3: Trialled at D2 Coventry, but not progressed. Spent first half of this season with Andy Hughes' Go-Away Squad', making three U23 appearances. In Jan got a loan to top-flight Scottish club Hibs (whose entire wage bill is 2.5 times what Pukki gets at Norwich) 

So, a player signed by an English PL club is going out on loan to much poorer clubs, while his international progress has stalled & he has suffered from illness & injury. Are we really making money from this?  I honestly can't see it.

For season 2020-21 Norwich received £639,000 in loan fees & wage-contributions.  Across the 24 loan deals (!) you can see that we are really not bringing in that much.

Happy to be corrected if anyone has any actual figures.

[NewNestCarrow 190]

43 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not quite no. 

The Tofollo example was at its most ridiculous in Neil's last January window. We sold Brady and Olsson and rather that giving Toffolo a chance we played Whittaker out of position and loaned in Dijks, before sending Toffolo out on loan again.

Going into the season with Farke Lewis had clearly been identified as a talent we thought could be in the first team. This doesn't mean you don't sign another player to give you an option in case that player doesn't make the grade of has some dips in form. But you don't actively play people out of position and sign expensive, short term options to block that players path.

So you are saying that it was better to spend £300k on Husband, give him a 3-yr deal then chuck him out on loan for most of that time than get in a loan with no long-term commitment?

[king canary 7,599]

7 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

I have heard this claim before, but I just don't buy it.  I think folk are just trying to put lipstick on a pig.

We signed Bushiri from Belgian top-flight as an U21 international We allegedly paid EU100k for his services, plus agents fees and, it is to be assumed, the player got a hefty pay-rise (we were a PL side)

Year 1: Bushiri went out on loan to a D3 club (Blackpool) & then back to the Belgian top-flight. The season was cut short due to covid. I can't see either of these deals producing much of a loan fee or major contribution to his wages. And every move sees an Agent getting paid.  This was also the last season that Bushiri was involved with the Belgian national set-up

Year 2: Bushiri went back to Belgian top-flight on loan, switching again mid-season. His season was cut short due to injury.  

Year 3: Trialled at D2 Coventry, but not progressed. Spent first half of this season with Andy Hughes' Go-Away Squad', making three U23 appearances. In Jan got a loan to top-flight Scottish club Hibs (whose entire wage bill is 2.5 times what Pukki gets at Norwich) 

So, a player signed by an English PL club is going out on loan to much poorer clubs, while his international progress has stalled & he has suffered from illness & injury. Are we really making money from this?  I honestly can't see it.

For season 2020-21 Norwich received £639,000 in loan fees & wage-contributions.  Across the 24 loan deals (!) you can see that we are really not bringing in that much.

Happy to be corrected if anyone has any actual figures.

Yeah I was going to say something similar.

Aiden Fitzpatrick was another example, we apparently paid £300k + for him, he spent a season out on loan with QoS in the Scottish Championship, no way we got close to recouping that fee.

Interesting to see that total number too.

[king canary 7,599]

2 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

So you are saying that it was better to spend £300k on Husband, give him a 3-yr deal then chuck him out on loan for most of that time than get in a loan with no long-term commitment?

No, you're missing my point.

Signing Husband didn't block Lewis' route into the first team, because there was a pathway laid out for him. The thinking was long term.

Signing Dijks did for Tofollo as the thinking was extremely short term.

[BigFish 1,986]

Results are short term. Managers get sacked for poor results so little wonder they bring in whomever they can who they think will get them over the line. Often we look at the youngsters with Canary tinted specs. Most are not, nor will ever be good enough.

[Ulfotto 630]

Personally if it’s a 50/50 between playing a player out of the position (or getting a short term loan) or throwing in a youngster.

The club should always choose the youngster option and whoever the manager is should be encouraged to do this. 

[shefcanary 2,393]

Here's a scouts update on one of the youngsters brought in and currently out on loan.

I had a chance to have a close up look at McCallum last night as went to Bramall Lane to watch Blades v QPR.  A crap game with I think only 3 shots on target all night. It gives me hope that next season, whilst not walking the league, we will do well.

But I digress.  I was disappointed to find McCallum was on the bench, he only came on with 15 minutes to go when QPR finally started to chase the game.  However he did look very assured in that time and did not put a foot wrong, playing in an advanced wing back role.  When there were corners etc. he was also the only "defender" back for QPR so certainly a lot of trust there.  I was sat quite close to the away dug out, and despite his late use of McCallum, Warburton had quite a lot of faith in him using him as a feed for his communication.  At one point McCallum actually questioned the effectiveness of the change he was being asked to share, so he does seem to have a bit about him. 

He still probably needs to fill out a bit, but he is good enough to be a squad player for us next year (famous last words a la Toffolo above, who I had similar hopes for, he has turned out to be a very reliable Chumps player). 

[king canary 7,599]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Here's a scouts update on one of the youngsters brought in and currently out on loan.

I had a chance to have a close up look at McCallum last night as went to Bramall Lane to watch Blades v QPR.  A crap game with I think only 3 shots on target all night. It gives me hope that next season, whilst not walking the league, we will do well.

But I digress.  I was disappointed to find McCallum was on the bench, he only came on with 15 minutes to go when QPR finally started to chase the game.  However he did look very assured in that time and did not put a foot wrong, playing in an advanced wing back role.  When there were corners etc. he was also the only "defender" back for QPR so certainly a lot of trust there.  I was sat quite close to the away dug out, and despite his late use of McCallum, Warburton had quite a lot of faith in him using him as a feed for his communication.  At one point McCallum actually questioned the effectiveness of the change he was being asked to share, so he does seem to have a bit about him. 

He still probably needs to fill out a bit, but he is good enough to be a squad player for us next year (famous last words a la Toffolo above, who I had similar hopes for, he has turned out to be a very reliable Chumps player). 

Interesting read, thanks Shef.

McCallum seems to have had a stop start season due to injury. I'm hopeful he's in the squad next season to compete with Dimi if he stays as I think he's got some talent.