Which was the worse team?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

2019/20

Finished 20th Won 5 Drawn 6 Lost 27. GD - 49. 21 pts

 

2021/22

Currently 20th Played 30 Won 4 Drawn 6 Lost 20. GD -45 18 pts

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by The Great Mass Debater

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

This team are more boring to watch but I’d call it a dead heat on which team are worse. 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

For me 21/22 is definitely worse. There were at least a few highlights during the 19/20 season and a handful of games where we played very well. I wouldn't say we have played very well in a single game this season. A few adequate performances, but that's as good as it's got. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

We should probably see what our points total is at the end of the season first to make that call....but

At least the team of 2 season ago had 'some' style of play, even if it was a one dimensional one of beundia or cantwell attempting to thread a ball through to pukki.

Now we dont even have that, thats not just under Smith but Farke aswell earlier this season too.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,716]

We forgetting we didn't get a single point after the restart in 19/20?

 

This team is gash but at least we can get points I suppose..

[CDMullins 436]

This team isn't better than last seasons.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

2 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

This team isn't better than last seasons.

Agreed. In fact I'd say this is the worst team we've had since Farke's first season.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

I seem to remember we started ok in 19/20. Ok so the Liverpool game was men against boys, but we had more shots at Anfield as the visitors in 2 years or something. We looked like we could score goals if we could sort the naive defending out. So there was some momentum carried over. 

Its why I do think the fixture list did play some part. We had a really challenging start and a bad run can change the psychology or momentum of a team. 

I know everyone has to play everyone else, but Im sure a team that has winnable games in its first few fixtures is more likely to build some momentum and keep morale up to get them through the tougher games.

Imagine if our first three games were Brentford Southampton Newcastle and Brighton - teams we've looked able to beat at times this season. Imagine we started with those games. It would have allowed us to build a head of steam.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

4 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Agreed. In fact I'd say this is the worst team we've had since Farke's first season.

This team doesnt do anything well. Most teams have at least some strengths to point to. I cant point to anything this current Norwich team does well. I think I could about 19/20

[nutty nigel 7,531]

This season's is worst by a long way for me. There were some great games while we could still go in 2019/20. We won the last home game v Leicester and had that great win at Spurs in the cup. After lockdown it wasn't real anymore.

Likewise the 2019 champions were better than last year's. Simply because we couldn't go although I did get to one game in December. The best Norwich team could never be one behind closed doors.

Edited April 3, 2022 by nutty nigel

[Big O 225]

Yep. I think the lockdown circumstances of the first one killed us in 19/20 just when we have some momentum after beating Leicester. We also had a few tee half crisis to battle and didn’t spend hardly any cash. This season has been shocking 

[Chelm Canary 404]

I can't even be sure we won't be staying on 18 points. 

Trying to assess who is better is like trying to choose my favourite member of the Taliban. 

 

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

2 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

I can't even be sure we won't be staying on 18 points. 

Trying to assess who is better is like trying to choose my favourite member of the Taliban. 

 

Or Take That. 

[hogesar 9,658]

9 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This season's is worst by a long way for me. There were some great games while we could still go in 2019/20. We won the last home game v Leicester and had that great win at Spurs in the cup. After lockdown it wasn't real anymore.

Likewise the 2019 champions were better than last year's. Simply because we couldn't go although I did get to one game in December. The best Norwich team could never be one behind closed doors.

Easy to forget before Covid struck there was rightly a bit of optimism having beaten spurs in the cup and the Lewis winner against Leicester. Was an opportunity to ride the wave of fan optimism and player confidence but of course,  that opportunity was taken away from us.

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

2 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

2019/20

Finished 20th Won 5 Drawn 6 Lost 27. GD - 49. 21 pts

2021/22

Currently 20th Played 30 Won 4 Drawn 6 Lost 20. GD -45 18 pts

 

Christ on a bike.

It's like asking if you'd prefer Josh Sargent to kick you in the left b0llock or the right b0llock. Thankfully, he'd miss both.

I guess the current one has been worse due to:

1) the lack of any outstanding results

2) the fact we spent a bit of cash and were still awful and

3) that we appear to have learnt nothing from 19/20.

OTBC

Edited April 3, 2022 by Disco Dales Jockstrap

[chicken 2,624]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Easy to forget before Covid struck there was rightly a bit of optimism having beaten spurs in the cup and the Lewis winner against Leicester. Was an opportunity to ride the wave of fan optimism and player confidence but of course,  that opportunity was taken away from us.

Arguably we had a similar blip this season with the period where we seemingly tried to play through half our squad being out whilst others cancelled games left, right and centre.

There was optimism around Sargent and Rashica at that point too, along with Idah playing up front alongside Pukki. Ripped the wind out of our sails.

Here's the thing for me.

2019/20 - we had momentum. We weren't brilliant, certainly not as good as the Lambert promotion side. I do feel that momentum carried us well. We had a settled side. Vrancic, Stiepermann, Hanley, Zimmermann, Krul, Aarons, Cantwell, Buendia, Pukki, Godfrey, Lewis, Hernandez, Leitner, Trybull, Tettey - all had been at the club for at least a season, the majority of them two.

Folks say we had an identity, we did, because the nucleus of that side remained the same. It had played a long championship season together. It had grown up in English football together.

2021/22 - we lost that momentum. Many of those players that got us up and through the last PL campaign were hitting 30 or more. Some had to leave, some wanted to leave (Stiepermann, Buendia). It meant we were facing transition which lost us that momentum. Especially compounded by a pre-season devastated by constant covid interruptions meaning we barely had one, not to mention the number of players coming in at the end of August, after the season had started. We are a team that needs those players to hit the ground running, if they don't...

No, this team isn't as good as 19/20, but then the 19/20 team had largely played, regularly played, at least a season together already.

[Monty13 2,231]

I feel it’s a slightly better overall squad now, but a slightly worse quality team we put on the pitch each week.

Ultimately if we grind out a few more points this season than last time by the end it’s still hard to argue this team is “better”.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

18 minutes ago, chicken said:

Arguably we had a similar blip this season with the period where we seemingly tried to play through half our squad being out whilst others cancelled games left, right and centre.

There was optimism around Sargent and Rashica at that point too, along with Idah playing up front alongside Pukki. Ripped the wind out of our sails.

Here's the thing for me.

2019/20 - we had momentum. We weren't brilliant, certainly not as good as the Lambert promotion side. I do feel that momentum carried us well. We had a settled side. Vrancic, Stiepermann, Hanley, Zimmermann, Krul, Aarons, Cantwell, Buendia, Pukki, Godfrey, Lewis, Hernandez, Leitner, Trybull, Tettey - all had been at the club for at least a season, the majority of them two.

Folks say we had an identity, we did, because the nucleus of that side remained the same. It had played a long championship season together. It had grown up in English football together.

2021/22 - we lost that momentum. Many of those players that got us up and through the last PL campaign were hitting 30 or more. Some had to leave, some wanted to leave (Stiepermann, Buendia). It meant we were facing transition which lost us that momentum. Especially compounded by a pre-season devastated by constant covid interruptions meaning we barely had one, not to mention the number of players coming in at the end of August, after the season had started. We are a team that needs those players to hit the ground running, if they don't...

No, this team isn't as good as 19/20, but then the 19/20 team had largely played, regularly played, at least a season together already.

Losing Idah was a bitter blow. He was building in confidence and was a proper handful even against good defenders.

Hopefully he'll be fit and ready for next season.

[chicken 2,624]

6 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I feel it’s a slightly better overall squad now, but a slightly worse quality team we put on the pitch each week.

Ultimately if we grind out a few more points this season than last time by the end it’s still hard to argue this team is “better”.

This captures it for me.

Essentially, had this squad had the benefit of a season in the Championship, been promoted in first place, would they all be performing better? I find it hard to find any reason as to why that answer would be anything other than yes.

I hope we can retain the majority of this squad for next season - barring the loan players. I think we could even afford to lose one or two if we are prepared to gamble on more players like Pilkington, Surman and though much better, the lesser spotted young Buendia's.

[chicken 2,624]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

Losing Idah was a bitter blow. He was building in confidence and was a proper handful even against good defenders.

Hopefully he'll be fit and ready for next season.

So do I. I really hope he can have an clear season, it's two where that has happened now isn't it?

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Just now, chicken said:

So do I. I really hope he can have an clear season, it's two where that has happened now isn't it?

Yes. But this season he started to look the real deal. If he fulfills his potential he'll be awesome for us. We wouldn't be able to buy a player with his attributes. On the flip side if he fulfills his potential he won't be here many seasons.

[Badger 2,405]

This season has been a really hard watch because we don't have a playing style. We can't keep the ball, but look toothless when we go long. 

No identity to out play and, to me anyway, no obvious plan.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

52 minutes ago, Big O said:

Yep. I think the lockdown circumstances of the first one killed us in 19/20 just when we have some momentum after beating Leicester. We also had a few tee half crisis to battle and didn’t spend hardly any cash. This season has been shocking 

We'd always prided ourselves on our fitness, so Id hoped that we might have a chance following lockdown as maybe we'd managed to keep our fitness better than other teams and this might help us close the gap in quality. But actually we seemed less fit than the other teams, so we came back worse than we'd left so at that point it was curtains.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

1 hour ago, CDMullins said:

This team isn't better than last seasons.

That’s a horrible, almost indigestible truth.

Parma

[chicken 2,624]

2 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

That’s a horrible, almost indigestible truth.

Parma

It's also been done to death.

People want a like for like instant ready replacement for Buendia and Skipp. In reality, both of those players would cost the best part of £60m. It also isn't just as easy as to tell the scouts to "go find the next Buendia".

Clearly more was hoped of Rashica. I suspect the same of Normann really. In reality, Skipp was a gamble and wasn't instantly fantastic, he needed games. The same could be said of Buendia. The reality is we can't afford financially to sign more proven players, equally, in terms of footballing levels, we can ill afford to give players time to become the next Buendia in the PL.

[paddycanary 539]

The disappointment/disillusionment of this season feels worse for me. There were a few results we could hang our hats onto two years ago and we were competitive in more games than this year, at least up until the lockdown. 

The 'post-mortem' is already taking place and there are still 8(?) games to go which sums up where we are. 

Lots of things haven't worked out for us; perhaps even if most of them had, we'd still be struggling to get to 17th position, who knows. 

Buendia was gone early & they surely must have been planning for Skipp not returning. The fixture list was also well flagged, as always. Lots of clubs had Covid-related pre-season interference, although we seemed to fare worse than most in that regard.

4-3-3 seemed to be the main battle plan, with Aarons and one of Williams & Dimi providing width (and one eye on Byram regaining fitness). For me, I don't think the defence is what has relegated us. Kabak has contributed virtually nothing.

In midfield, I guess a lot more was hoped for/expected from Gilmour which was perhaps unfair on such a young lad and quite possibly a costly misjudgement on the club's part. The Normann signing hasn't worked out. PLM was a decent squad filler with a bit of nous & experience for a reasonable outlay, with perhaps (alas) one eye on having a competent player if back in the Champo (a la McLean & probably the serially-injured Rupp). Perhaps more was hoped for too from Sorensen, who seems to be generally struggling for fitness and perhaps just not fancied. The engine room is where we have been most found wanting, imo.

In the advanced areas, the club went with Pukki again being the main provider of goals, backed up by Idah which was a gamble anyway whether fit or not and then I suppose Rashica or Sargent as a third option if necessary up top. Support for Pukki was supposed to be primarily Rashica & Cantwell with roles for Sargent, Dowell, Placheta & Tzolis and perhaps Rupp or McLean as options too. 

When you look at it with the benefit of hindsight (and not with the annual pre-season hopeful optimism), it's probably not too surprising to see how the season has panned out. Losing Emi was a huge blow, but I guess the hope was that the creativity would come from a mix of Cantwell, Gilmour, Rashica and Normann (& perhaps Tzolis?). Not replacing Skipp was an inexplicable recruitment decision (maybe bitten by the Amadou signing?) & has been disastrous. And also no attempt to remedy this in January is almost unforgivable, particularly with Lungi struggling for fitness. 

17th place or higher was always going to be a massive task, but I think the club itself (aspirations of 'top-17') was hoping for & even expecting to make a better fist of it this time around. I think we will just shade the pathetic tally of 21 points from two years ago, but on the whole I think we look worse overall this season in comparison.

Maybe it is just to do with the astronomical finance required to compete with the other clubs & feed at the EPL trough. We over-achieve at Champo level but the leap to bottom-half Prem quality has widened to a ridiculous level. Burnley's stay looks to be over (big game against Everton!) & I think Brentford will 'do a Sheffield United' next year. Leeds have their 'Olly Skipp' with Phillips which has surely helped to garner them the few precious points required to hover sufficiently above the drop-zone. 

Apologies for rambling length of post! 

[Tetteys Jig 830]

3 hours ago, chicken said:

It's also been done to death.

People want a like for like instant ready replacement for Buendia and Skipp. In reality, both of those players would cost the best part of £60m. It also isn't just as easy as to tell the scouts to "go find the next Buendia".

Clearly more was hoped of Rashica. I suspect the same of Normann really. In reality, Skipp was a gamble and wasn't instantly fantastic, he needed games. The same could be said of Buendia. The reality is we can't afford financially to sign more proven players, equally, in terms of footballing levels, we can ill afford to give players time to become the next Buendia in the PL.

We didn’t even replace Skipp with a similar style player though, none of our midfielders specialise in breaking up play and enforcing things like Skipp did. Lewis OBrien from Huddersfield is a prime example of an affordable player we should have been in for that would have replaced Skipp even if he wasn’t quite as good as Skipp himself. The Gilmour deal just looks baffling now as I’m not really sure what the plan was if we never planned to stick him next to an enforcer type.

Perhaps Lees Melou was supposed to be that guy?

As for Emi, sure we could never replace him but we should have done far better than Sargent and Tzolis for £20m. I think Rashica will still work out to be decent business though.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

8 hours ago, paddycanary said:

The disappointment/disillusionment of this season feels worse for me. There were a few results we could hang our hats onto two years ago and we were competitive in more games than this year, at least up until the lockdown. 

The 'post-mortem' is already taking place and there are still 8(?) games to go which sums up where we are. 

Lots of things haven't worked out for us; perhaps even if most of them had, we'd still be struggling to get to 17th position, who knows. 

Buendia was gone early & they surely must have been planning for Skipp not returning. The fixture list was also well flagged, as always. Lots of clubs had Covid-related pre-season interference, although we seemed to fare worse than most in that regard.

4-3-3 seemed to be the main battle plan, with Aarons and one of Williams & Dimi providing width (and one eye on Byram regaining fitness). For me, I don't think the defence is what has relegated us. Kabak has contributed virtually nothing.

In midfield, I guess a lot more was hoped for/expected from Gilmour which was perhaps unfair on such a young lad and quite possibly a costly misjudgement on the club's part. The Normann signing hasn't worked out. PLM was a decent squad filler with a bit of nous & experience for a reasonable outlay, with perhaps (alas) one eye on having a competent player if back in the Champo (a la McLean & probably the serially-injured Rupp). Perhaps more was hoped for too from Sorensen, who seems to be generally struggling for fitness and perhaps just not fancied. The engine room is where we have been most found wanting, imo.

In the advanced areas, the club went with Pukki again being the main provider of goals, backed up by Idah which was a gamble anyway whether fit or not and then I suppose Rashica or Sargent as a third option if necessary up top. Support for Pukki was supposed to be primarily Rashica & Cantwell with roles for Sargent, Dowell, Placheta & Tzolis and perhaps Rupp or McLean as options too. 

When you look at it with the benefit of hindsight (and not with the annual pre-season hopeful optimism), it's probably not too surprising to see how the season has panned out. Losing Emi was a huge blow, but I guess the hope was that the creativity would come from a mix of Cantwell, Gilmour, Rashica and Normann (& perhaps Tzolis?). Not replacing Skipp was an inexplicable recruitment decision (maybe bitten by the Amadou signing?) & has been disastrous. And also no attempt to remedy this in January is almost unforgivable, particularly with Lungi struggling for fitness. 

17th place or higher was always going to be a massive task, but I think the club itself (aspirations of 'top-17') was hoping for & even expecting to make a better fist of it this time around. I think we will just shade the pathetic tally of 21 points from two years ago, but on the whole I think we look worse overall this season in comparison.

Maybe it is just to do with the astronomical finance required to compete with the other clubs & feed at the EPL trough. We over-achieve at Champo level but the leap to bottom-half Prem quality has widened to a ridiculous level. Burnley's stay looks to be over (big game against Everton!) & I think Brentford will 'do a Sheffield United' next year. Leeds have their 'Olly Skipp' with Phillips which has surely helped to garner them the few precious points required to hover sufficiently above the drop-zone. 

Apologies for rambling length of post! 

I think that’s a very good post Paddy.

Parma

[Green Canary 21]

Not sure really but voted for 21/22 as a fresh pile of c**p always smells the worst

[Capt. Pants 4,228]

This is really an easy one for me as I haven't enjoyed watching us this season one bit.

Sure there are mitigating circumstances for both seasons but our style of play is extremely turgid now. No one can surely say they've enjoyed that?

Nothing will beat the sheer excitement of 2018/19, and the dominance of last season. We've peaked and are on the slide now.