Why aren't we Brentford?

[king canary 7,580]

6 hours ago, BigFish said:

Just imagine the outcry if Webber did something like this

Honestly, I don't think there would be an outcry. Both those players went to Premier League clubs for good fees from a team in the Championship. There wasn't much outcry when we sold Lewis and Godfrey for instance. Most fans understand its very difficult for a club in the Championship to reject bids like that from teams in the Premier League. 

[aBee 151]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

I am not sure that many of us resent Brentford. I for one am pleased that they managed to find a way of playing that works.

My impression has been that it's been a bit long ball and pragmatic, but this might not be fair.

In all our discussions this season we have not really considered whether we need to adopt a more pragmatic method if we are to survive. All we seem interested in is the desperate need for a multi billionaire.

It has been pretty pragmatic and a lot more long ball than we’re used to. But Frank said early on that trying to pass it around Liverpool etc was madness so he had to find other ways to give these teams a game. We’ve still often played out but not been afraid to go long to beat a high press. I think we had a squad total PL experience of about half an hour between three late sub appearances as 18 year olds for Toney and Canos so the learning curve was ultra steep and we focused on organisation and planning rather than thinking we could ping it about as if we were playing Wycombe. The aim was to be hard to beat and to trust in the process to deliver opportunities but not to bin off the idea of trying to play when it is on. 

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, aBee said:

It has been pretty pragmatic and a lot more long ball than we’re used to. But Frank said early on that trying to pass it around Liverpool etc was madness so he had to find other ways to give these teams a game. We’ve still often played out but not been afraid to go long to beat a high press. I think we had a squad total PL experience of about half an hour between three late sub appearances as 18 year olds for Toney and Canos so the learning curve was ultra steep and we focused on organisation and planning rather than thinking we could ping it about as if we were playing Wycombe. The aim was to be hard to beat and to trust in the process to deliver opportunities but not to bin off the idea of trying to play when it is on. 

I think that is exactly the way to stay up. I don't see another.

Stay up and build over time.

Good luck next year with the "second season curse" * but you've beaten the odd many times before.

* A lot better than the first season curse that hits most clubs 😩

[Petriix 2,834]

The irony being that we were clearly a better team than Brentford last season. But they have retained far greater continuity from last season while we (inexplicably) rolled the dice and came off far worse.

[aBee 151]

22 minutes ago, Petriix said:

The irony being that we were clearly a better team than Brentford last season. But they have retained far greater continuity from last season while we (inexplicably) rolled the dice and came off far worse.

The league table didn’t lie. Last season we learned to grind and to change- grinding to become harder to beat than the free flowing “BMW” attack of 19-20 that lost a load of games 1-0 to a single attack by dross like Brum and change in moving to 352 from 433 after Henry got injures, making WBs of Mbeumo and Canos. Both those have helped this season. 
 

It hurt to lose the play off final to of all teams Fulham but in retrospect, apart from the possibility of having had our only season in the PL be without fans, we were better adapted to survive when we did go up. Even had Benrahma and Watkins stayed on promotion a year earlier I think we’d have been far too open and lacking in defensive ability to have survived (most Bees will say the same after feeling gutted at throwing away promotion to the Championship in 12-13 but being a much stronger team for it). Maybe that cruise to a second title in 3 years strangely made things harder for you by dissuading Farke from bedding in a style evolution earlier and having to try it with your nasty opening run of fixtures. Ditto Webber- surely an easier task to buy a set of young players to develop for the future in the Championship than to get them all in place after promotion. 

[Bonzo 198]

Here are two reasons;

1. We preferred to buy Sargent and allow Brentford a free run at Toney.

2. We preferred to loan Kabak instead of signing Ajer.

In short we refuse to really compete in the transfer market. If another side wants a player targeted by us as was the case of Ajer then we seem to be inclined to take the most passive line and let them do so.

Either our scouting is trustworthy and thus correct or it isn't.

Despite a promotion to the premier league we retain the mentality that the club is on the verge of bankruptcy when signing players.  

The reality is that very good players make the team a better team. Average players do not.

I'd rather we didn't sign one or two but got our first choices on a couple of positions instead of settling for the player we could afford. 

The other difference between ourselves and Brentford is that Brentford have a goal threat. They have three forwards who can score and create goals whereas we have one who can do this and two who should but don't.

Brentford had a preseason with their entire squad and kept the same manager and their signing of Erikson was an inspired piece of work.

Unlike Gilmour who is still developing Erikson is a tried and tested high level premiership player and a proven game changer at this level. He again is someone we should have been in for but weren't.

Every penny spent on average players is a penny wasted. It is nice to buy potential but what we really need is quality. 

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,513]

I thought Brentford signed Toney in 2020. He was definitely there when we played them last season.

[king canary 7,580]

1 hour ago, Bonzo said:

1. We preferred to buy Sargent and allow Brentford a free run at Toney.

Errrm....no.

Brentford signed Toney last season, a full year before we bought in Sargent.

[komakino 272]

I'm really pleased for Brentford. 

They have owners that want to stay up - we don't

[Bonzo 198]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

Errrm....no.

Brentford signed Toney last season, a full year before we bought in Sargent.

We plan our transfers more than one season ahead. 

[hogesar 9,618]

19 hours ago, king canary said:

Honestly, I don't think there would be an outcry. Both those players went to Premier League clubs for good fees from a team in the Championship. There wasn't much outcry when we sold Lewis and Godfrey for instance. Most fans understand its very difficult for a club in the Championship to reject bids like that from teams in the Premier League. 

Depends. I know this forum isn't actually that representative of the fanbase at Carrow Road in general, but this forum already had the doomsayers criticising the board for definitely cashing in on Emi, Cantwell etc before the window had even opened. Had we sold Pukki and Emi there would have been endless posts on here about a lack of ambition to get promoted. I have absolutely zero doubt of that when those posts existed purely based on prediction let alone them actually happening.

[CowboyCanary 37]

Maybe because they play at a level of consistency we haven't found yet?  

[Mengo 822]

6 minutes ago, CowboyCanary said:

Maybe because they play at a level of consistency we haven't found yet?  

But I have climbed highest ⛰️ 

 

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Still feel the media attention from day one and giving us Liverpool (again) on opening day had a lot to do with it.
Couple it off with us ditching Farke

I strongly feel that we would be in a better situation, perhaps even safe if we had Brentford at home on the opening day and we had kept our faith with Farke.

 

Our issue (again) in 23/24 will be the media eye roll and They are not good enough for the Prem will be in full swing before a ball has even been kicked.

[Badger 2,405]

16 hours ago, Petriix said:

The irony being that we were clearly a better team than Brentford last season. But they have retained far greater continuity from last season while we (inexplicably) rolled the dice and came off far worse.

The irony is that we were trying to learn the lessons from our last sojourn in the Premier League.

We felt that we were too open, so switched to 433, but never made it work and lost all pattern and shape to our play.

We felt that we needed different players for this season, so replaced several, but never managed to integrate them properly.

We changed a lot in the summer, but it hasn't worked. 

[Badger 2,405]

4 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

 

Our issue (again) in 23/24 will be the media eye roll and They are not good enough for the Prem will be in full swing before a ball has even been kicked.

I think that it's s pretty big assumption to think that we are likely to go straight back up.

I'm not sure that our fanbase would even welcome it (I would) - it would certainly bring the prophets of doom out quickly!

[Jimmy Raggatip 59]

20 hours ago, Badger said:

I am not sure that many of us resent Brentford. I for one am pleased that they managed to find a way of playing that works.

 

The TalkNorwichCity boys can't stand them, mention it on every show. Coming across quite bitter now

[king canary 7,580]

26 minutes ago, Badger said:

The irony is that we were trying to learn the lessons from our last sojourn in the Premier League.

We felt that we were too open, so switched to 433, but never made it work and lost all pattern and shape to our play.

We felt that we needed different players for this season, so replaced several, but never managed to integrate them properly.

We changed a lot in the summer, but it hasn't worked. 

Yeah I don't quite get the criticism that we should have just stuck with those who got us up for a couple of reasons...

1- we tried that last time and we were hopelessly exposed when it turned out players like Trybull, Steiperman, Leitner and other core players from our promotion just weren't able to make the step up.

2- in the first 4 games of this season the most new signings we had starting was 4 and generally it was 3. So it wasn't like our slow start was due to huge upheaval.

[king canary 7,580]

On 03/04/2022 at 00:51, chicken said:

I honestly think, in hindsight, which is no real help I know, that it was that summers transfers that cost us. If we knew that Buendia was already gunning to go, we needed to find someone who, like him, could flower with a season in the Championship. Likewise, with Tettey on his way out we should have found a more permanent solution, as well as Skipp

I think this is a really good and under discussed point.

The signings from Summer 2020 were solid in the Championship but have hugely underwhelmed with stepping up to the top flight. Even the ones who have featured a fair bit like Gibson or Giannoulis have struggled.

[Mengo 822]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think this is a really good and under discussed point.

The signings from Summer 2020 were solid in the Championship but have hugely underwhelmed with stepping up to the top flight. Even the ones who have featured a fair bit like Gibson or Giannoulis have struggled.

I think basically the whole team has struggled bar one. Krul is possibly the only one I can think of that has held his own throughout .

As I team we have had the Sh!t kicked out of us............😔

 

[Mello Yello 2,282]

1 hour ago, Mengo said:

I think basically the whole team has struggled bar one. Krul is possibly the only one I can think of that has held his own throughout .

As I team we have had the Sh!t kicked out of us............😔

 

That's probably why we haven't made Squittys thread, We're not even bad enough to get in the sh*t eleven.....

[chicken 2,605]

On 04/04/2022 at 16:50, king canary said:

I think this is a really good and under discussed point.

The signings from Summer 2020 were solid in the Championship but have hugely underwhelmed with stepping up to the top flight. Even the ones who have featured a fair bit like Gibson or Giannoulis have struggled.

That's what we're looking at. And the players who have actually been involved this season are Mumba, Placheta, Sorensen and Dowell. With Gibson and Giannoulis becoming permanent at the end of last season.

[king canary 7,580]

28 minutes ago, chicken said:

That's what we're looking at. And the players who have actually been involved this season are Mumba, Placheta, Sorensen and Dowell. With Gibson and Giannoulis becoming permanent at the end of last season.

It isn't a great bunch. At the start of the season I actually felt players like Gibson and Giannoulis would give us a better chance of staying up as they were more the type of players you needed for a relegation scrap than Lewis and Godfrey. Hasn't worked out like that though.

I was always pretty skeptical about the ability of Hugill or Dowell to step up, although I thought Dowell would have been involved more than he has.

The one I've been really disappointed by is Placheta. He came in with some hype, cost a (reportedly) decent fee by our standards and just looks like a total nothing player. 

I know signing players in the Championship who could be good enough for the Premier League is not easy but we've basically gone three seasons without managing to really improve our first XI.

[chicken 2,605]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

It isn't a great bunch. At the start of the season I actually felt players like Gibson and Giannoulis would give us a better chance of staying up as they were more the type of players you needed for a relegation scrap than Lewis and Godfrey. Hasn't worked out like that though.

I was always pretty skeptical about the ability of Hugill or Dowell to step up, although I thought Dowell would have been involved more than he has.

The one I've been really disappointed by is Placheta. He came in with some hype, cost a (reportedly) decent fee by our standards and just looks like a total nothing player. 

I know signing players in the Championship who could be good enough for the Premier League is not easy but we've basically gone three seasons without managing to really improve our first XI.

Agreed. I think Gibson has been better recently, Giannoulis just not given a chance to really shine. I agree re Hugill though can't help but feel, despite my reservations, he may have been able to help considering lack of anything else being added in Jan.

Placheta is weird. At times last season he showed some promise, got wide, had pace, looked to cross. He's left footed... but we've seen him played a lot on the right hand side this season. I suspect due to a lack of a good alternative and not being as good as Rashica who prefers to play on the left, seemingly. He has good pace and a good engine, I think there has been talk of him being more of a wing back or full back than an attacking player. Rumoured cost was £1.5m wasn't it? So similar to Hernandez, Leitner, Buendia etc.

It just irks me a little that none of them apparently have the ability to step up to this level which is what we needed. Dowell has probably disappointed the most yet hardly gets a mention from most. At times he rivalled Cantwell for attacking midfield ability. Perhaps didn't have the pace, but he certainly showed ability, especially at the tail end of last season.

In fact I would say that it's pretty clear that this season, some players have played more than the plan was for them to play - I know that has been said by someone at the club at a fan meeting I think. On paper, you'd have said at the start of the season, a 4-3-3 would probably have looked a bit like: Krul, Aarons, Hanley, Gibson, Giannoulis, Normann, McLean, Gilmour, Rashica, Pukki, Cantwell. Bench of: Gunn, Williams, Kabak, PLM, Rupp, Idah, Sargent, Dowell, Tzolis.

Williams has been decent enough, but if that had been the side for most of the season and shown some semblance of previous form we could look half decent. Cantwell didn't turn up, ever, as an attacking outlet. Dowell should have been the heir apparent, taken it with both hands. Somehow all that expectation fell upon Tzolis.

We've been found wanting again. And for the 2nd time, wanting because we have put a lot of expectation upon a lot of youngsters. We shouldn't be expecting a 19yr old Greek in his first season of English football to be rivalling our main creative threat, a Kosovan in their first season in English football, with a 20yr old Scottish lad in his first season as being a regular starter, with a 21yr old US striker in his first season in English football... just too much to have to "click" right to be successful.

I do echo other folks talk of a defensive midfielder. They shouldn't be hard to find. They are essentially an advanced defender. There are a number we've looked at before too, who would have been inexpensive and play in the Championship. 

[king canary 7,580]

14 minutes ago, chicken said:

Agreed. I think Gibson has been better recently, Giannoulis just not given a chance to really shine. I agree re Hugill though can't help but feel, despite my reservations, he may have been able to help considering lack of anything else being added in Jan.

Placheta is weird. At times last season he showed some promise, got wide, had pace, looked to cross. He's left footed... but we've seen him played a lot on the right hand side this season. I suspect due to a lack of a good alternative and not being as good as Rashica who prefers to play on the left, seemingly. He has good pace and a good engine, I think there has been talk of him being more of a wing back or full back than an attacking player. Rumoured cost was £1.5m wasn't it? So similar to Hernandez, Leitner, Buendia etc.

It just irks me a little that none of them apparently have the ability to step up to this level which is what we needed. Dowell has probably disappointed the most yet hardly gets a mention from most. At times he rivalled Cantwell for attacking midfield ability. Perhaps didn't have the pace, but he certainly showed ability, especially at the tail end of last season.

In fact I would say that it's pretty clear that this season, some players have played more than the plan was for them to play - I know that has been said by someone at the club at a fan meeting I think. On paper, you'd have said at the start of the season, a 4-3-3 would probably have looked a bit like: Krul, Aarons, Hanley, Gibson, Giannoulis, Normann, McLean, Gilmour, Rashica, Pukki, Cantwell. Bench of: Gunn, Williams, Kabak, PLM, Rupp, Idah, Sargent, Dowell, Tzolis.

Williams has been decent enough, but if that had been the side for most of the season and shown some semblance of previous form we could look half decent. Cantwell didn't turn up, ever, as an attacking outlet. Dowell should have been the heir apparent, taken it with both hands. Somehow all that expectation fell upon Tzolis.

We've been found wanting again. And for the 2nd time, wanting because we have put a lot of expectation upon a lot of youngsters. We shouldn't be expecting a 19yr old Greek in his first season of English football to be rivalling our main creative threat, a Kosovan in their first season in English football, with a 20yr old Scottish lad in his first season as being a regular starter, with a 21yr old US striker in his first season in English football... just too much to have to "click" right to be successful.

I do echo other folks talk of a defensive midfielder. They shouldn't be hard to find. They are essentially an advanced defender. There are a number we've looked at before too, who would have been inexpensive and play in the Championship. 

I may be harsh but I just see nothing in Placheta. He's fast but he doesn't seem to have a football brain or any real technique. I'm yet to see him have a game where I've felt he's got his fullback beaten. He's very, very easy for defenders to deal with. 

I do think the lack of a proper defensive midfielder has had ramifications throughout the squad though. A proper DM gives cover that allows Giannoulis and Aarons to get forward but as we don't have one we end up with the more defensive Williams at left back and Aarons looks less impactful. A proper DM also gives Gilmour and Normann the best chances to succeed- Gilmour can be the playmaker he's supposed to be or Normann can be the box to box type he clearly likes to be. Instead they're both hamstrung trying to be something their not. 

[aBee 151]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

I do echo other folks talk of a defensive midfielder. They shouldn't be hard to find. They are essentially an advanced defender. There are a number we've looked at before too, who would have been inexpensive and play in the Championship. 

I think you underestimate what is needed of a good CDM and how hard the combination is to find. 
 

They need to have the defensive vision of a CB and be at least as good on the ball as the best ball playing CBs. They also need the mobility of a box to box midfielder because they need to be able to provide both defensive cover anywhere across the back line (eg Kante on Saturday was tucking in as a third CB, Rice often will be out wide taking on a winger to let a FB add numbers in the box closing off crossing options). They need 90 minutes 100% concentration because they are advance cover to stop attacks early and have to be able to start attacks. They also need to be capable going forward otherwise you’re a man down in counter attacks. All while being less lauded than flair creative midfield players so it takes a particular humility to devote yourself to a career where many of your best games are notable for how little you are noticed (cf goalies who are often remembered more for their errors than the 95% of the match they do competently). But teams lacking a good CDM notice the absence. 
 

Converting CBs or Number 8s is possible but hard as it is such a varied skill set and such an unglamorous one. 
 

 

[chicken 2,605]

1 minute ago, aBee said:

I think you underestimate what is needed of a good CDM and how hard the combination is to find. 
 

They need to have the defensive vision of a CB and be at least as good on the ball as the best ball playing CBs. They also need the mobility of a box to box midfielder because they need to be able to provide both defensive cover anywhere across the back line (eg Kante on Saturday was tucking in as a third CB, Rice often will be out wide taking on a winger to let a FB add numbers in the box closing off crossing options). They need 90 minutes 100% concentration because they are advance cover to stop attacks early and have to be able to start attacks. They also need to be capable going forward otherwise you’re a man down in counter attacks. All while being less lauded than flair creative midfield players so it takes a particular humility to devote yourself to a career where many of your best games are notable for how little you are noticed (cf goalies who are often remembered more for their errors than the 95% of the match they do competently). But teams lacking a good CDM notice the absence. 
 

Converting CBs or Number 8s is possible but hard as it is such a varied skill set and such an unglamorous one. 
 

 

If it sounded like I underestimated what is needed I didn't mean to, however, I think you over-cook what is needed.

Tettey is case in point. A much loved player people feel we have missed. A great passer? No. The energy and combativeness - yes. You could say the same of Andrew Crofts though we brought in Johnson to replace him as he wasn't the best on the ball. Gary Holt even.

Those are out and out defensive midfielders. Then you have the likes of Johnson, Howson, who can play a similar role but have more going forward, and can play more advanced if needed - especially Howson who was more a CM. I think Normann is possibly more of a Johnson, just with less of the rough edge to ruffle feathers quite so, brashly.

But, if we are talking about replacing Tettey, which we are really. Though people say Skipp, Skipp actually did keep Tettey to part time responsibilities last season.

One player we supposedly had eyes on in the past is Vaulks. He's available on a free this coming summer and it's largely rumoured they're not going to try and keep him at Cardiff. Not sure what folks think of him, he's 28, will be 29 come September... but could have done a job and surely wouldn't have cost the earth.

Someone else has suggested a player from Huddersfield.

Lets put it another way. I'm not sure a player like those, when given a chance to step it up a division, could struggle as much as some of our players have this season. We seem to lack that desire to gamble on a Championship player as Lambert, Karsa and Culverhouse did. And we had a pretty combative side back then, down the middle and wide. 

[aBee 151]

10 hours ago, chicken said:

If it sounded like I underestimated what is needed I didn't mean to, however, I think you over-cook what is needed.

Tettey is case in point. A much loved player people feel we have missed. A great passer? No. The energy and combativeness - yes. You could say the same of Andrew Crofts though we brought in Johnson to replace him as he wasn't the best on the ball. Gary Holt even.

Those are out and out defensive midfielders. Then you have the likes of Johnson, Howson, who can play a similar role but have more going forward, and can play more advanced if needed - especially Howson who was more a CM. I think Normann is possibly more of a Johnson, just with less of the rough edge to ruffle feathers quite so, brashly.

But, if we are talking about replacing Tettey, which we are really. Though people say Skipp, Skipp actually did keep Tettey to part time responsibilities last season.

One player we supposedly had eyes on in the past is Vaulks. He's available on a free this coming summer and it's largely rumoured they're not going to try and keep him at Cardiff. Not sure what folks think of him, he's 28, will be 29 come September... but could have done a job and surely wouldn't have cost the earth.

Someone else has suggested a player from Huddersfield.

Lets put it another way. I'm not sure a player like those, when given a chance to step it up a division, could struggle as much as some of our players have this season. We seem to lack that desire to gamble on a Championship player as Lambert, Karsa and Culverhouse did. And we had a pretty combative side back then, down the middle and wide. 

I was thinking in terms of someone who would be able to make the step up after promotion. Finding someone adequate at Championship level is easier but most would get found out at PL. Assuming Norwich will be looking to go up and make a better fist of it next time I think you would do well to go for a good CDM rather than one who can merely do a job against weaker opposition. We lacked one every season from 14-15 to 18-19 and the difference in our 2015 play off defeat to Boro was their central defensive midfield.   
 

At BCS I thought Normann looked the part, but it seems like he’s not kept it up since injury.
 

While he’s not our most celebrated player, Norgaard is acknowledged by most Bees to be the one who has made most difference in moving us from “play nicely, great going forward, give away soft chances so end up 9th over a season and sell their stars” to two near misses of automatic promotion and a relatively comfortable PL season with no real hammerings received and a good number of creditable wins. He came relatively cheaply (£3m iirc) from not really establishing at Fiorentina. He actually missed much of last season and Janelt (£500k from Bochum who couldn’t believe we rated him even at that) deputised well (but is also not quite up to being a sole CDM in the PL and seems to be being converted back to the 8 he was before). 

 

Get yourself a robotic beast of a CDM and it’ll improve you a load and let more lightweight skill players have more freedom. You might well have been in a different position now had you spent almost all the Buendia money on buying Skipp. 

[Ian 1,129]

Good for them this season, but we have seen with Sheff Utd. how quickly things can change, especially with a few key personnel losses/injuries.

Will be very interesting to see what happens in the summer with them, certainly their recruitment seems to have been very impressive over the last few seasons.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Without risking the wrath of apportioning blame, surely the simple matter is Brentford made better decisions than us so that their squad including the coach are at the moment, far better than us. If ever there was a doubt, last Saturday made it obvious.

It doesn't mean disloyalty to admire something someone else has done.