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Did we go backwards by appointing Dean Smith?

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1 minute ago, Mr Angry said:

I reckon Teemu would have got 10 out of 15 points-would have been worth submitting an appeal if it was turned down. Emi would have got about 4 I think.

Cheers. I must have been thinking of someone else instead of Teemu.

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Wasn't he Brentford team lauded for playing nice football? 

You can't expect him to play nice football with no playmakers in the squad, it really is that simple. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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21 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The only reason that Smith kept Villa up in his first season is that a referee missed the fact that the ball had crossed the line by a foot and he didn't have the common sense to ask VAR to look at it. Without doubt the worst referreing decision in the history of the Premier League. I think Smith had spent around 10 times more than Norwich that season.  He then spent £33m on Emi and sat him on the bench. 

We now play route one football which is depressing to watch to say the least. We may as well have appointed Mick Mccarthy. 

 

Totally agree about that referee decision.

Buendia started 7 out of 11 games under Smith before he got sacked, and one of the ones he missed he was unavailable for having been in Brazil for a World Cup qualifier.

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7 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Cheers. I must have been thinking of someone else instead of Teemu.

No, you might be right ,it's not certain we would have been able to sign him. 

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Arguably Smith helped to turn Grealish into a £100 million player. He was drifting in the Championship before DS’s arrival. To say Smith wasn’t getting the best of Buendia in just 11 games is a bit harsh as players can take time to adapt. If I remember correctly Buendia wasn’t immediately firing on all cylinders for us.

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There was no need to sack Farke. He lost one of the two players maybe - but since then it is seen that he was right about that. Yes, he had too many losses in the PL, true - but the team were starting to pick up points.

Often the grass looks greener elsewhere, but as so often in life, it is not, it is just different. Farke was not the problem - his style of football was based on the highest ideals - it was the resources to get the players able to play that way in the PL that was the problem. 

Imo we threw away something long lasting and meaningful for something less, in the chase for staying up. It was as flawed a decision as it possibly could be imo - just as Farke was starting to get results.

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8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

There was no need to sack Farke. He lost one of the two players maybe - but since then it is seen that he was right about that. Yes, he had too many losses in the PL, true - but the team were starting to pick up points.

Often the grass looks greener elsewhere, but as so often in life, it is not, it is just different. Farke was not the problem - his style of football was based on the highest ideals - it was the resources to get the players able to play that way in the PL that was the problem. 

Imo we threw away something long lasting and meaningful for something less, in the chase for staying up. It was as flawed a decision as it possibly could be imo - just as Farke was starting to get results.

His style of play was the problem. In over 40 Premier League games he failed to develop a style to get us regular enough results in the league. Resources were definitely a hindrance but I’m not convinced the players knew their roles and we were definitely not organised enough. Look at the Chelsea game - we were an absolute shambles (with most of our squad fit).

Dean Smith has us more organised and we looked more effective in a 4-4-2 with Idah. No chance of that now though. 

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1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

It will also have been made much more difficult by Brexit

To an extent yes. However the Post Brexit system was proposed by the FA, Premiership and EFL to the government not the other way around. It has British player development in mind. 
 

Clubs with good academies (like us) will do better over the years because a) less players can be bought so homegrown talent becomes key b) home grown talent becomes more desirable and thus price rises when we sell.
 

I think the rules are a little strict but I get where they are going with it.

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I was completely undecided about sacking DF. I knew we needed change but wasn't sure whether he had it in him to change. But after his first season, he oversaw a team that arguably played the best football ever seen at Carrow Road by the home team.

I was disappointed we took Deano. We already had a coach who proved he could do well in the Championship. He didn't do well at Villa in the EPL with a far bigger budget than we had in two seasons.

So I am not convinced he is the right man but as with any other coach, he is ours for the moment so I look forward to him in the Championship.

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26 minutes ago, (Hoola)Han Solo said:

His style of play was the problem. In over 40 Premier League games he failed to develop a style to get us regular enough results in the league. Resources were definitely a hindrance but I’m not convinced the players knew their roles and we were definitely not organised enough. Look at the Chelsea game - we were an absolute shambles (with most of our squad fit).

Dean Smith has us more organised and we looked more effective in a 4-4-2 with Idah. No chance of that now though. 

I'm amazed we've still got Farke truthers kicking around. There is literally no manager with a worse Premier League record than him, the idea he was going to suddenly work it out after 49 games of failure is a bit weird.

Edited by king canary
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4 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Panic appointment. I questioned why we appointed a manager that couldnt cut it in the Prem to save us.
Fire him as soon as we are down and overhaul again.

We should have kept Daniel Farke.

I don't agree that we should have kept Farke, but we sure as hell shouldn't have panic appointed Dean sodding Smith. 

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Good luck to Smith next season, but for me I would prefer to have DF managing us in the Championship.

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1 hour ago, (Hoola)Han Solo said:

His style of play was the problem. In over 40 Premier League games he failed to develop a style to get us regular enough results in the league. Resources were definitely a hindrance but I’m not convinced the players knew their roles and we were definitely not organised enough. Look at the Chelsea game - we were an absolute shambles (with most of our squad fit).

Dean Smith has us more organised and we looked more effective in a 4-4-2 with Idah. No chance of that now though. 

We are still the same distance from safety as we were under Farke and we are still shipping goals and not scoring them. As for Farke's style being the problem - imo it was the best chance we had of getting anywhere in the long term, given the players we can afford - to aspire to play the beautiful game. 

Smith has tried in his own way, but it isn't working. Will that change? I hope so, but it's not looking likely - we will need to beat a top team or two before the end of the season and if that happens, we'll all think better of Smith, but really, as it stands, we are no better than we were under Farke. 

 

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I think it’d be a deep mistake to write Smith off as a traditional English manager. I think he’s actually a good fit for you as someone who will set you up to be a good passing, attacking team as well as having experience in doing that with limited resources within a club recruitment process. He did a good job at Walsall and Brentford. His down to earth Brummie demeanour doesn’t make him less stylistically astute than Farke. 

He’s very good at putting an arm around young players and developing them well. But he’s not a miracle worker so if the players aren’t there for it, he’s not going to transform them. In each of his seasons at Brentford he had to cope with the top striker being sold and still getting the next one to perform. But he keeps faith with them to do so- when Hogan was sold he got goals out of Vibe, he had patience with Maupay when his first season was underwhelming, when Maupay was sold he moved Watkins centrally with great success.  He’ll frustrate by getting the team into the final third and then having them seemingly too patient to pass it around looking for an opening rather than take a risk to break through. 
 

He’s also, for some reason, is quite streaky and you’ll get winning runs alternating with winless ones so needs patience from fans. It means he might not get you to stroll to another title but with the right recruitment there won’t be a need for a complete style change between divisions. And he’s not going to treat any game as unwinnable, which if you’ll pardon my impudence, I thought (had it been my decision!) should have had Farke fired in August and is a mindset that completely stunk. Smith’s a realist, as the manager of any club that looks to be sustainable without being a billionaire’s plaything needs to be, but not a defeatist, which no manager, least of all one of a team newly promoted as Champions should be. 

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5 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Panic appointment. I questioned why we appointed a manager that couldnt cut it in the Prem to save us.
Fire him as soon as we are down and overhaul again.

We should have kept Daniel Farke.

No - the mistake made was not ditching Farke far sooner than we did. 

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5 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Panic appointment. I questioned why we appointed a manager that couldnt cut it in the Prem to save us.
Fire him as soon as we are down and overhaul again.

We should have kept Daniel Farke.

Absolute ****ing bat**** crazy nonsense. 

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12 minutes ago, aBee said:

He’s also, for some reason, is quite streaky and you’ll get winning runs alternating with winless ones so needs patience from fans. It means he might not get you to stroll to another title but with the right recruitment there won’t be a need for a complete style change between divisions

Thanks for this. Really good post. I know you're not quite an outsider because of Smith's time at Brentford, but it is useful to get a disinterested view, and I think that's a pretty good summary of what Smith offers. And you're dead right about Farke's defeatism, which among other things also had the effect of putting massive pressure on the games against the 'smaller clubs'. It's no surprise that some NCFC fans haven't quite accepted it yet, but his race was run here.

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

I think Brexit and covid were a perfect storm. Brexit changed where we needed to look (less Scandinavia, more South America for example) covid meant we couldn't pivot to focusing there.

I would love Norwich to sign Kjetil Knutsen and the directors and trainers from Bodø/Glimt😂😂

 

And more seriusly I think D.S is doing a ok job now. Not easy with the players we have 

 

Hopping for topp 6 Next season

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36 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Smith has tried in his own way, but it isn't working. 

... but really, as it stands, we are no better than we were under Farke. 

Farke had 49 games with us in the top flight, with a miserable return, yet you would be happy to give him even more time; probably another 300 years or so.

Smith on the other hand has only had 16 games but 'it isn't working' apparently. A team 100% crafted by Farke that Smith has had to come in and fire fight with because it's such an absolute sh1t show.

Yet he has managed 12 points in 16 games to Farke's 5 in 11.

With Farke's team.

And through mass covid cases at the club.

And with no new signings in January to put his stamp on the team.

I know you are still pining for Daniel but ffs at least try to see through your personal bias and realise what you are saying is the absolute height of c0ckwomble.

OTBC

Edited by Disco Dales Jockstrap
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To say we are no better off now than when Farke left is a palpably true statement, the clue is in the league table. I’m looking forward, sort of, to a Smith and Shakey show next season, but Leeds and Norwich fans are United in saying goodbye to 2 very special managers and era’s. So Wimbledon womble yourself!

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5 hours ago, rock bus said:

I should perhaps reiterate that I am not anti 'British manager' and perhaps the better term would have been a more 'traditional' manager?

My main point is that I am struggling to see what Smith's ethos is in terms of playing style. I am also really concerned that rather than building on what Farke achieved with the club we have basically just thrown it all away and now seem to be starting afresh. Maybe that is something you always have to do when you sack your manager but I am sure that was the vision sold to us when Webber came in.

I think that’s a good thing, he’s shown a huge amount of adaptability since taking over trying to get the best out of a group of players that aren’t his.

Farke was far more one note IMO and unfortunately it’s proven to be a way of playing that can’t seem to work for us in the PL. You can’t outclass PL teams technically with Championship players.

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

A cursory glance at his track record shows that just isn't true.

How does a glance at his record have anything to do with his style being hoofball? 

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1 hour ago, aBee said:

And he’s not going to treat any game as unwinnable, which if you’ll pardon my impudence, I thought (had it been my decision!) should have had Farke fired in August and is a mindset that completely stunk.

Nail on the head, this is why he had to go.

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1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

We are still the same distance from safety as we were under Farke and we are still shipping goals and not scoring them. As for Farke's style being the problem - imo it was the best chance we had of getting anywhere in the long term, given the players we can afford - to aspire to play the beautiful game. 

Smith has tried in his own way, but it isn't working. Will that change? I hope so, but it's not looking likely - we will need to beat a top team or two before the end of the season and if that happens, we'll all think better of Smith, but really, as it stands, we are no better than we were under Farke. 

 

We haven’t signed a single player since Smith joined.

You may still be pining for Farke, but the reality is Dean Smith is still firefighting after Farkes tenure, a fight that given the luck we’ve had with injuries and our decision not to back him in January is a effectively over.

Edited by Monty13

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Knutson was the manager we should have got. His team absolutely destroyed Celtic home and away the other week. They play with a wonderful energetic, free-flowing and effective style. 

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13 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

How does a glance at his record have anything to do with his style being hoofball? 

A glance at his track record shows teams that have always played a good, attacking style of football. To compare him to Allerdyce or Pulis is just ignorance. 

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48 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Farke had 49 games with us in the top flight, with a miserable return, yet you would be happy to give him even more time; probably another 300 years or so.

Smith on the other hand has only had 16 games but 'it isn't working' apparently. A team 100% crafted by Farke that Smith has had to come in and fire fight with because it's such an absolute sh1t show.

Yet he has managed 12 points in 16 games to Farke's 5 in 11.

With Farke's team.

And through mass covid cases at the club.

And with no new signings in January to put his stamp on the team.

I know you are still pining for Daniel but ffs at least try to see through your personal bias and realise what you are saying is the absolute height of c0ckwomble.

OTBC

You lost me on "Farke had 49 games in the top flight with a miserable return".  First season we did not have the players. Simples. We also did not have even what we had fit enough to provide a useful defence. All momentum was lost - yet we did improve and as soon as we started to make a fight of it, covid hit and the lockdow kyboshed any chance we had of regaining any momentum.

Fast forward to this season and we were scuppered even before we started, with covid, a ridiculously - and imo PL intended - horrendous fixture list to start the season - and then the distraction hype of Cantwell and Gilmour causing problems in the squad. 

Even so, we started to improve, developed a seige mentality to get points and to cap it all we got that elusive first win. 

In short Farke had nothing going for him, precious little luck and a lack of resources through both PL seasons - and yet he was villified by some as if it was all his fault.  He got us to the PL twice and should have been trusted to see us through this season whatever happened. 

I am not anti-Smith - I really hope he gets us on the up, but this thread asked a specific question - and I think the answer is yes, that it was a backwards step. Smith will have to do what Farke did (if we go down), rebuild a squad to get us back up next season. I would be a lot happier with Farke in that scenario.

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22 minutes ago, corbs said:

To say we are no better off now than when Farke left is a palpably true statement, the clue is in the league table. I’m looking forward, sort of, to a Smith and Shakey show next season, but Leeds and Norwich fans are United in saying goodbye to 2 very special managers and era’s. So Wimbledon womble yourself!

I presume this is aimed at me? 

So if you just look at one thing (league position) and ignore all the many, many, MANY variables that lead to that thing, then yes you are 100% correct.

But it's on a par with comparing a light bulb to the sun and stating, "They both produce light so they are the same."

To join you in doing that, I'd have to destroy my ability to use my critical thinking skills by consuming about 15 cans of super strength lager.

Alas, I have no super strength lager. So I'll have to decline your invitation and keep my thinking ability at 100% capacity.

OTBC

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2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

You lost me on "Farke had 49 games in the top flight with a miserable return". 

I think you were lost a long, long time before that Lakey.

OTBC

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Whatever the relative merits of DF and DS (and personally I have a lot of time for them both) I think we can all agree we dodged a bullet when we missed out on Fat Frank.

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