Did we go backwards by appointing Dean Smith?

[rock bus 850]

I should say at the outset that this isn't necessarily a dig at Dean Smith himself and neither am I suggesting we should've kept Farke.

But I do wonder if the club has taken a backward step by appointing Smith.

Smith is probably not a bad manager and he is being hampered by a squad that is clearly not premier league standard. He has also had to cope with our ongoing bad luck ie Covid/injuries. Despite this, I am not convinced that there are enough (any) signs he is capable of getting any more out of the squad...a la Lambert.

What concerns me even more than this though is that with the appointment of Farke and Webber's position the club had made an important step in terms of showing a more modern and constructive approach to the management of the club:

• Farke himself brought a different style of play based on skill and possession with a defined methodology that was meant to thread right through all playing levels. At the moment under Smith I'm struggling to see what our style of play even is (this may be just because he doesn't have the players to suit his style).
• We were adopting a non domestic transfer and scouting policy - allowing us to fully exploit the opportunities where we can acquire better prospects for less money given the strength of the English league even at championship level.
• The concept was also that you could swap out the Manager and/or the Sporting Director without a total upheaval of the coaching staff and/or philosophy -something that plainly didn't happen.
• Succession planning would mean identified replacements who will continue the strategy of the club - again didn't happen as Smith wasn't available at time of Farke' sacking. Whilst Webber may always have liked him I cant believe he knew he  would become available and we clearly didnt have a lined up Manager as should've been the case.

I now fear that we are heading towards the championship with a very 'traditional' British manager and coach with no defined playing style or a strategy to get us promoted again. We had managed to re-establish our identity as a club and as a result the Management, team, club and supporters all seemed totally united. Now we appear to be more disjointed than ever and I fear this bodes for a really long spell in the championship (or worse, if Smith cant sort the squad out).

[Samwam27 519]

He's done better than Farke in the Premiership, and this is Farke's squad. Lets judge him on next season

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Panic appointment. I questioned why we appointed a manager that couldnt cut it in the Prem to save us.
Fire him as soon as we are down and overhaul again.

We should have kept Daniel Farke.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,675]

Not his squad, not his players and yet despite our current poor form hes still done better and won more than Farke.

[hertfordyellow 460]

I've heard this argument before, that he is a very British manager, but I don't think this is very fair or reflective of his career to date. 

He has come in, half way through a season, into a relegation dog fight, with a fragile beaten and uneven squad. He is basically putting out fires and trying to keep us in games long enough to get points. His time with Villa and Brentford shows a more youthful, energetic attacking style with players being well coached and younger players improving. I'm happy with the appointment and certainly didn't expect him start trying to play like Barcelona in such circumstances.

As ever, I will reserve full judgement of his suitability for this team until he has at least had a preseason and decent run of games after that.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

It’s as good as we can hope for tbh. Hopefully we can scrap a couple of wins between now and the end of the season at least so we don’t completely kill the momentum and then he can rebuild in summer.

[king canary 7,579]

I'd suggest going and taking a look at Smith's teams for Villa and Brentford- they are far from the standard 'British' style of football people seem to fear.

He was bought in with a short term objective to keep a very weak squad up and has had to play in a certain way. 

There is also no suggestions we're moving away from the SD model or that we'll stop our international scouting/transfer policy. 

I made the point a while ago that I viewed the signings Webber made both in 2020 and 2021 as an effort to evolve our style in the top division- not a huge switch but a move away from the obsessive possession/passive defence that Farke seemed to prefer to something with more of an emphasis on counter attacking and pressing. If this is the case then a move from Farke to Smith may prove to be a step forward in the long term. 

There are a couple of key missing pieces from this squad that I'm sure Smith would want- namely a striker who can play with his back to goal and offer an option for crosses (hence Idah's increased role since he arrived) and a solid, settled pair to be the 'double pivot' in front of his back line.

Get those and I think the style of the team evolves hugely.

[rock bus 850]

I should perhaps reiterate that I am not anti 'British manager' and perhaps the better term would have been a more 'traditional' manager?

My main point is that I am struggling to see what Smith's ethos is in terms of playing style. I am also really concerned that rather than building on what Farke achieved with the club we have basically just thrown it all away and now seem to be starting afresh. Maybe that is something you always have to do when you sack your manager but I am sure that was the vision sold to us when Webber came in.

[king canary 7,579]

3 minutes ago, rock bus said:

I should perhaps reiterate that I am not anti 'British manager' and perhaps the better term would have been a more 'traditional' manager?

My main point is that I am struggling to see what Smith's ethos is in terms of playing style. I am also really concerned that rather than building on what Farke achieved with the club we have basically just thrown it all away and now seem to be starting afresh. Maybe that is something you always have to do when you sack your manager but I am sure that was the vision sold to us when Webber came in.

I'm not sure you can really make that judgement yet though can you? 

As others have pointed out, he's been given a squad entirely devoid of confidence and quality in key areas. If he keeps playing kick and hope football next season in the Championship then I think you can worry but based on his pre Norwich experience I don't see that happening.

I hope, longer term, that this turns out to be more of an evolution of our style rather than a revolution. 

[komakino 272]

23 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'd suggest going and taking a look at Smith's teams for Villa and Brentford- they are far from the standard 'British' style of football people seem to fear.

He was bought in with a short term objective to keep a very weak squad up and has had to play in a certain way. 

There is also no suggestions we're moving away from the SD model or that we'll stop our international scouting/transfer policy. 

I made the point a while ago that I viewed the signings Webber made both in 2020 and 2021 as an effort to evolve our style in the top division- not a huge switch but a move away from the obsessive possession/passive defence that Farke seemed to prefer to something with more of an emphasis on counter attacking and pressing. If this is the case then a move from Farke to Smith may prove to be a step forward in the long term. 

There are a couple of key missing pieces from this squad that I'm sure Smith would want- namely a striker who can play with his back to goal and offer an option for crosses (hence Idah's increased role since he arrived) and a solid, settled pair to be the 'double pivot' in front of his back line.

Get those and I think the style of the team evolves hugely.

More likely he was brought in to get us up next year - as he was given no funds in January - and is highly rated by Webber. I think it was unrealistic for any manager to come in with such a poor squad and keep us up with Championship level players. 

Once he has a chance to make a squad he can call his own - and this isn't - the he can be judged. 

[Walcombe canary 69]

I am not sure you can judge a Manager without allowing him to serve 2 Transfer Windows. That said. The Club have to purchase the players & positions which are required by The Manager The pressure is High. Failure will be at the end of next season, and failing to win Promotion back to The Premiership, If our Club want another go. I don't think we can count January 2022 as we did nowt. Good Luck Dean Smith. I believe that there is more pressure on Stuart Webber this summer, IF he is still with us

[(Hoola)Han Solo 324]

1 hour ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Panic appointment. I questioned why we appointed a manager that couldnt cut it in the Prem to save us.
Fire him as soon as we are down and overhaul again.

We should have kept Daniel Farke.

Didn’t he keep Villa up for two seasons?

They played some good stuff last season, albeit with Grealish. Villa lost five on a bounce which led to his sacking, and although they’ve got some good results under Gerrard, do remember that they signed Coutinho. A lot of Villa fans have nothing but good things to say about him, which doesn’t suggest the football was overly bad (and yes I’m aware he’s a Villa fan).

Whilst I’m not saying Smith has not made errors here, to say he can’t cut it in the Premier League isn’t very accurate.

[Bovril 219]

Farke is a better manager than Smith given unlimited resources. However, the club does not have unlimited resources and as a result unfortunately cannot currently play Farke-ball in the Premier League given the players (and the finance needed to purchase said players) needed to suit. 

We needed to be more pragmatic in order to stand a chance of survival, given our level of finances. This is where Smith comes in, who is able to add this part to the game. This was evidenced in our away win at Watford as despite not being great to watch, we were able to comfortably grind out a 3-0 win if that doesn't sound too oxymoronic. 

In summary; we stand a better chance of survival under Smith and once this is achieved we would need Farke back to push on to a level similar to Brighton (which is what they have done by appointing Potter after a few more pragmatic previous managers). 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Bovril

[(Hoola)Han Solo 324]

As an aside to quickly writing off Smith, remember Farke’s first season, and the beginning of the second, was not particularly inspiring, and there were calls from some to sack him.

I’d judge him after giving him a transfer window, because I’m convinced Smith would’ve suggested very different players in summer 21 then the players we actually got in (to start, two defensive midfield players).

[canarybubbles 1,915]

I'm in a minority on here, it seems, in not wanting Smith to be given a transfer window. 

But what we say on here makes no difference anyway. Smith could lose every game that is left and he still wouldn't be sacked at the end of the season. First, because our owners are always very reluctant to fire a manager. Second, because that would be tantamount to Webber admitting a double failure - first his summer recruitment, then his appointment of Smith. The hierarchy at NCFC will be much happier if we get to 25 points this season so that Farke can be blamed for the relegation, the owners don't have to do anything decisive, and Webber can salvage some of his reputation before he moves on elsewhere.

[Mr Angry 1,545]

2 hours ago, rock bus said:

I should say at the outset that this isn't necessarily a dig at Dean Smith himself and neither am I suggesting we should've kept Farke.

But I do wonder if the club has taken a backward step by appointing Smith.

Smith is probably not a bad manager and he is being hampered by a squad that is clearly not premier league standard. He has also had to cope with our ongoing bad luck ie Covid/injuries. Despite this, I am not convinced that there are enough (any) signs he is capable of getting any more out of the squad...a la Lambert.

What concerns me even more than this though is that with the appointment of Farke and Webber's position the club had made an important step in terms of showing a more modern and constructive approach to the management of the club:

• Farke himself brought a different style of play based on skill and possession with a defined methodology that was meant to thread right through all playing levels. At the moment under Smith I'm struggling to see what our style of play even is (this may be just because he doesn't have the players to suit his style).
• We were adopting a non domestic transfer and scouting policy - allowing us to fully exploit the opportunities where we can acquire better prospects for less money given the strength of the English league even at championship level.
• The concept was also that you could swap out the Manager and/or the Sporting Director without a total upheaval of the coaching staff and/or philosophy -something that plainly didn't happen.
• Succession planning would mean identified replacements who will continue the strategy of the club - again didn't happen as Smith wasn't available at time of Farke' sacking. Whilst Webber may always have liked him I cant believe he knew he  would become available and we clearly didnt have a lined up Manager as should've been the case.

I now fear that we are heading towards the championship with a very 'traditional' British manager and coach with no defined playing style or a strategy to get us promoted again. We had managed to re-establish our identity as a club and as a result the Management, team, club and supporters all seemed totally united. Now we appear to be more disjointed than ever and I fear this bodes for a really long spell in the championship (or worse, if Smith cant sort the squad out).

Good post.

Our ‘non domestic transfer and scouting policy’ may have been screwed to some extent by COVID as we were unable to do the scouting for some time.

 

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 526]

17 minutes ago, Bovril said:

Farke is a better manager than Smith given unlimited resources. However, the club does not have unlimited resources and as a result unfortunately cannot currently play Farke-ball in the Premier League given the players (and the finance needed to purchase said players) needed to suit. 

We needed to be more pragmatic in order to stand a chance of survival, given our level of finances. This is where Smith comes in, who is able to add this part to the game. This was evidenced in our away win at Watford as despite not being great to watch, we were able to comfortably grind out a 3-0 win if that doesn't sound too oxymoronic. 

In summary; we stand a better chance of survival under Smith and once this is achieved we would need Farke back to push on to a level similar to Brighton (which is what they have done by appointing Potter after a few more pragmatic previous managers). 

Somebody on here recently gave a link to an article about the indebtedness of the Premier League Clubs and Brighton were 6th with  £ 306 million owed to their owner. While we would be over the moon to be 13th with 33 points they are certainly not an established Premier league Club and remain potential relegation candidates every season.

I get that you, Bovril, are referring to their choice in type of managers, but I would argue that they are not doing that well considering how much money they have Sp*nked up the wall. 

[Petriix 2,834]

I'll reserve judgement until we're 10 games in to our Championship campaign next season. On the whole we can objectively say that the club has gone backwards since the end of last season, but it's difficult to pin that all (if any) on the manager.

I've struggled to warm to Smith at all - for many of the reasons outlined in the OP. I was a massive fan of Farke and his philosophy. I'm struggling to even see a clear plan under Smith.

Overall I'm baffled as to why we abandoned our system from last season, I'm (somewhat irrationally) angry that we keep playing Gilmour as I feel like his arrival was the catalyst for our regression. I can't stand watching Hanley and Gibson lumping the ball forwards aimlessly. I just don't recognise the team anymore. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,242]

3 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

Our ‘non domestic transfer and scouting policy’ may have been screwed to some extent by COVID as we were unable to do the scouting for some time.

It will also have been made much more difficult by Brexit

[vlad666 203]

People may say give Smith a transfer window but does he have much say on who we sign? This transfer board have continually failed to sign the correct type of players for a while. I for one don’t trust them with the limited funds we have. 

[Mr Angry 1,545]

Just now, Robert N. LiM said:

It will also have been made much more difficult by Brexit

True, although we possibly could have foreseen that!

[Robert N. LiM 4,242]

2 hours ago, rock bus said:

The concept was also that you could swap out the Manager and/or the Sporting Director without a total upheaval of the coaching staff and/or philosophy -something that plainly didn't happen.

Good post, with lots of food for thought. 

There's obviously a lot in the bit I've quoted, but I wonder whether it's also a case of realising the the philosophy itself was flawed. Farkeball was never going to work in the Prem on our budget. It was glorious and hugely ambitious, but in the end you have to be much more pragmatic to survive in the Prem. So I wonder whether Farke was sacked because Webber had seen the shortcomings in the philosophy, more than we lost the philosophy because Farke was sacked. 

Those seasons under Daniel are some of my all time favourites. Even in his full Prem season the wins over Man City and Spurs in the cup will live long in the memory. But, assuming he's up for the challenge, I'd like to see what Smith can do with a refreshed squad. Hopefully a compromise between the gorgeous stuff we saw under Daniel and the greater pragmatism that's undoubtedly necessary.

[Robert N. LiM 4,242]

4 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

True, although we possibly could have foreseen that!

Sure, but I think it might have removed a marginal gain for us: cheap foreign players who've gone under other clubs' radars. I think I'm right in saying we couldn't have signed Emi or Teemu under the new rules. Happy to be corrected on that: I'm not an expert.

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

24 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Overall I'm baffled as to why we abandoned our system from last season, I'm (somewhat irrationally) angry that we keep playing Gilmour as I feel like his arrival was the catalyst for our regression. I can't stand watching Hanley and Gibson lumping the ball forwards aimlessly. I just don't recognise the team anymore. 

That was already happening in Farke's last few games as I recall, we started banging long balls forward regularly

[dylanisabaddog 4,868]

The only reason that Smith kept Villa up in his first season is that a referee missed the fact that the ball had crossed the line by a foot and he didn't have the common sense to ask VAR to look at it. Without doubt the worst referreing decision in the history of the Premier League. I think Smith had spent around 10 times more than Norwich that season.  He then spent £33m on Emi and sat him on the bench. 

We now play route one football which is depressing to watch to say the least. We may as well have appointed Mick Mccarthy. 

 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

I'm not convinced he's much different to an Allardyce/Pulis type in all honesty... which is what a lot on here want with 6ft4 athletes who boot it long and stay up at any cost, so I suppose he is a good appointment from that perspective. Although from my pov I'd rather not go at all than watch this long ball dross being served up.

[king canary 7,579]

27 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

It will also have been made much more difficult by Brexit

I think Brexit and covid were a perfect storm. Brexit changed where we needed to look (less Scandinavia, more South America for example) covid meant we couldn't pivot to focusing there.

[king canary 7,579]

Just now, Worthy Nigelton said:

I'm not convinced he's much different to an Allardyce/Pulis type in all honesty... which is what a lot on here want with 6ft4 athletes who boot it long and stay up at any cost, so I suppose he is a good appointment from that perspective. Although from my pov I'd rather not go at all than watch this long ball dross being served up.

A cursory glance at his track record shows that just isn't true.

[HazzaJet 252]

Smith is better than Farke in the Premiership. However, Farke was fantastic in the Championship and so I will judge Smith on how we are doing in the Championship around October in comparison to who we manage to keep this summer

Edited March 7, 2022 by HazzaJet

[Mr Angry 1,545]

27 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Sure, but I think it might have removed a marginal gain for us: cheap foreign players who've gone under other clubs' radars. I think I'm right in saying we couldn't have signed Emi or Teemu under the new rules. Happy to be corrected on that: I'm not an expert.

I reckon Teemu would have got 10 out of 15 points-would have been worth submitting an appeal if it was turned down. Emi would have got about 4 I think.