Should Webber Out Chants Start? (Poll)

[Decemberists 42]

5 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Think there’s a few more negatives but broadly agree with your point.

Happy to hear them. Some of my positives could be argued against too?

I think we need to remember what we are trying to do is really bloody difficult! It's not a fair fight, but we should be proud we are doing it the right way. And the changes made in recent years will have positive effects for years to come regardless of this season's performance. 

We are, in our model, always going to be underdogs. But when, sooner or later, we get it right and stay up we can cement that and push the club further.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Decemberists

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

I think at the very least Webber needs to hand over the recruitment totally to someone else, as quite frankly he's been pathetic in this area. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I've just searched the word 'neglect', and filtered by user TeemVanBasten, and the only time I've ever used that word is on this occasion...

I think somebody may be fibbing. Feel free to replicate this search if you don't believe me.

And on that note, I've got no interest in continuing this discussion, you are literally making things up now (and not for the first time).

EDIT: Yep, definitely lying, here was my exact post: 

And nobody at all called it out apart from you.

You are literally completely void of integrity as a person aren't you? Do you lie to your wife and friends like this? 

 

You used the term ‘neglecting your ill children’. I’ll leave the proof here. What’s that about being a liar?

[Monty13 2,231]

4 minutes ago, Decemberists said:

Happy to hear them. Some of my positives could be argued against too?

I think we need to remember what we are trying to do is really bloody difficult! It's not a fair fight, but we should be proud we are doing it the right way. And the changes made in recent years will have positive effects for years to come regardless of this season's performance. 

We are, in our model, always going to be underdogs. But when, sooner or later, we get it right and stay up we can cement that and push the club further.

I agree, I said it elsewhere but our model is PL on hard mode.

That does mean though you need to get more right, be better organised, adaptable and successful with your limited resources than the opposition to be successful.

He has overseen the coaching and recruitment teams and I think this is where the negatives are for me in hindsight this season:

- BK8 deal.

- No cohesive strategy from the Championship team to Premier League team, different formation and player type than last 3 seasons.

- Not learned lessons from previous PL season, not enough physicality or experience in signings.

- Complete player overhaul rather than squad progression.

- Signings very late in window giving less time to bed in.

- Bloated squad of questionable quality.

- Poor quality loans that largely haven’t came off at great expense. 

- Signings that may turn out to be profitable/improvements long term but haven’t had an impact on survival this season.

- Sold the teams best player on promotion (we can argue the toss about this to the ends of the earth on whether it had to happen or not, but he didn’t have to contractually and he was managing that situation, I can’t think of another example in the modern era and it was a huge gamble)

- Was part of a leadership team that turned a 30+ million PL quality asset into a Championship outcast.

- Giving Farke a 4 year contract.

- Timing and manner of Farke sacking, I believe it needed to happen but I thought it was enacted poorly.

- Not fighting enough for postponing matches.

- No activity in January window despite the obvious need.

I say all this while pretty much entirely agreeing with your positive assessments.

 

[Mengo 822]

24 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I agree, I said it elsewhere but our model is PL on hard mode.

That does mean though you need to get more right, be better organised, adaptable and successful with your limited resources than the opposition to be successful.

He has overseen the coaching and recruitment teams and I think this is where the negatives are for me in hindsight this season:

- BK8 deal.

- No cohesive strategy from the Championship team to Premier League team, different formation and player type than last 3 seasons.

- Not learned lessons from previous PL season, not enough physicality or experience in signings.

- Complete player overhaul rather than squad progression.

- Signings very late in window giving less time to bed in.

- Bloated squad of questionable quality.

- Poor quality loans that largely haven’t came off at great expense. 

- Signings that may turn out to be profitable/improvements long term but haven’t had an impact on survival this season.

- Sold the teams best player on promotion (we can argue the toss about this to the ends of the earth on whether it had to happen or not, but he didn’t have to contractually and he was managing that situation, I can’t think of another example in the modern era and it was a huge gamble)

- Was part of a leadership team that turned a 30+ million PL quality asset into a Championship outcast.

- Giving Farke a 4 year contract.

- Timing and manner of Farke sacking, I believe it needed to happen but I thought it was enacted poorly.

- Not fighting enough for postponing matches.

- No activity in January window despite the obvious need.

I say all this while pretty much entirely agreeing with your positive assessments.

 

Can't argue with the overall assessment. The 4 year contract I have never managed to understand that one. I have asked in other threads if somebody could explain that one. Till now I have never had a whisper of an answer. How much money did that cost. 🤔 

[Decemberists 42]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

I agree, I said it elsewhere but our model is PL on hard mode.

That does mean though you need to get more right, be better organised, adaptable and successful with your limited resources than the opposition to be successful.

He has overseen the coaching and recruitment teams and I think this is where the negatives are for me in hindsight this season:

- BK8 deal.

- No cohesive strategy from the Championship team to Premier League team, different formation and player type than last 3 seasons.

- Not learned lessons from previous PL season, not enough physicality or experience in signings.

- Complete player overhaul rather than squad progression.

- Signings very late in window giving less time to bed in.

- Bloated squad of questionable quality.

- Poor quality loans that largely haven’t came off at great expense. 

- Signings that may turn out to be profitable/improvements long term but haven’t had an impact on survival this season.

- Sold the teams best player on promotion (we can argue the toss about this to the ends of the earth on whether it had to happen or not, but he didn’t have to contractually and he was managing that situation, I can’t think of another example in the modern era and it was a huge gamble)

- Was part of a leadership team that turned a 30+ million PL quality asset into a Championship outcast.

- Giving Farke a 4 year contract.

- Timing and manner of Farke sacking, I believe it needed to happen but I thought it was enacted poorly.

- Not fighting enough for postponing matches.

- No activity in January window despite the obvious need.

I say all this while pretty much entirely agreeing with your positive assessments.

 

Some good points in there and some I'd question.

The most important one in there and the one causing fan discontent, in my opinion, is players not giving immediate premiership impact. But I wonder if such signing are ever really available on our budget - if you are spending less than £10million do you get a prem ready talent in this market? 

The Farke and Buendia stuff is all fair enough, but not sure Webber can shoulder much repsonsibility on Cantwell's situation.

I guess when it comes down to it I can be patient.

I trust Webber to find another Buendia, Pukki, Krul, Rashica, Skipp, Williams. And I trust Smith to develop Rowe, Idah, Sargent, Tzolis.

The improved scouting, coaching and training facilities will bear fruit - but those are never immediate wins. He's got the long term future of the club spot on, but he has made mistakes in the here and now for this current season. But for me that long term plan is more important. 

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

5 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Completely out of order to pressure people that you don't know in the real world into making cash bets, in the midst of a gambling epidemic and cost of living crisis when you don't know whether they have a history with gambling or whether they are struggling with heating and eating right now, how about you donate your own money to charity and stop trying to coerce people into handing over theirs. I have my own 'pledges', including £25 when Sargent scores with his left foot. You don't need other people to commit cash to benefit charity, you could just donate your own. Chugger! 

Out of all the stuff to get offended by on this forum, that certainly wasn’t it!

[hertfordyellow 460]

11 minutes ago, Decemberists said:

Some good points in there and some I'd question.

The most important one in there and the one causing fan discontent, in my opinion, is players not giving immediate premiership impact. But I wonder if such signing are ever really available on our budget - if you are spending less than £10million do you get a prem ready talent in this market? 

The Farke and Buendia stuff is all fair enough, but not sure Webber can shoulder much repsonsibility on Cantwell's situation.

I guess when it comes down to it I can be patient.

I trust Webber to find another Buendia, Pukki, Krul, Rashica, Skipp, Williams. And I trust Smith to develop Rowe, Idah, Sargent, Tzolis.

The improved scouting, coaching and training facilities will bear fruit - but those are never immediate wins. He's got the long term future of the club spot on, but he has made mistakes in the here and now for this current season. But for me that long term plan is more important. 

Yeah I started a thread on expectations of signings. I concluded until you are making the 20 million plus signings (like Leicester, Brighton), There is no guarantee they will perform in this league. There was risk in all our signings but then we had to take risks. Rashica for 9 million is very good business. The others are probably about right, even Tzolis.

[hertfordyellow 460]

2 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Out of all the stuff to get offended by on this forum, that certainly wasn’t it!

Yeah, it was for the charity pledges too, not cash bets as he called it. 

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

Just now, hertfordyellow said:

Yeah, it was for the charity pledges too, not cash bets as he called it. 

Very strange overreacting, but nothing on this forum surprises me 🤣

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Would this fresh blood you speak of be an addition to the current board or bring about the demise of Foulger, Philips or Tom Smith ?

In addition to the current five, unless any of those want to leave. The incumbents have between them decades of valuable experience of running a football club.

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

2 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

You used the term ‘neglecting your ill children’. I’ll leave the proof here. What’s that about being a liar?

Which one of you had been looking at photos of women in their underwear?

[hertfordyellow 460]

6 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

Which one of you had been looking at photos of women in their underwear?

Me. I think they are clothing collections rather than just underwear but it does look sus 😂. Genuinely researching for my job (I am working with an online clothing company right now and looking at what others were doing for content)

But then again I would say that.

 

[Mengo 822]

2 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

I think at the very least Webber needs to hand over the recruitment totally to someone else, as quite frankly he's been pathetic in this area. 

Difference between the Premier League and Championship

We weren’t good enough and at this level it comes down to quality. The Championship is full of success stories not based on pure quality. That's not the case in the Premier League.

And that comes down to me, because I built that squad over three years. I have to make sure we learn from this and do it better. The only way we’ll find out if we have learned is if we get another chance. If we do the same things, then I deserve to be hung up. 🤔

 

[Monty13 2,231]

1 hour ago, Decemberists said:

Some good points in there and some I'd question.

The most important one in there and the one causing fan discontent, in my opinion, is players not giving immediate premiership impact. But I wonder if such signing are ever really available on our budget - if you are spending less than £10million do you get a prem ready talent in this market? 

Two points on that, we could have afforded fewer more expensive signings and I’d argue we should have done that. Second I don’t think it’s even true, take Southampton as a great example. Majority of their transfers in the last 2-3 seasons are in the 10-15 million range. Diallo, Salisu, Walker-Peter’s. Livramento cost less. Ok Armstrong cost 18, but for a striker (with a goalscoring pedigree) I don’t think that’s an outrageous outlay in todays market. You could argue wages they offer are higher, almost certainly true, but the idea we can’t afford the fees is not entirely true IMO.

2 hours ago, Decemberists said:

The Farke and Buendia stuff is all fair enough, but not sure Webber can shoulder much repsonsibility on Cantwell's situation.

Sorry I disagree, if we are giving Webber credit for overseeing the team that came up with transfer successes and youth development, he also has to own the failures. Not only that, contract renewals sit firmly in his camp. The Cantwell situation is poor player management. 

A talent that scored PL goals and was one of the few successes last time out, now has been managed out of the club for a fraction of his potential worth. That sits with Webber as the overall lead of the team responsible. It’s not the first time we’ve seen some questionable approaches to players, with them frozen out. It’s just times we’re good and this is the first high profile example of a player we wanted being managed that way.

2 hours ago, Decemberists said:

I guess when it comes down to it I can be patient.

I trust Webber to find another Buendia, Pukki, Krul, Rashica, Skipp, Williams. And I trust Smith to develop Rowe, Idah, Sargent, Tzolis.

The improved scouting, coaching and training facilities will bear fruit - but those are never immediate wins. He's got the long term future of the club spot on, but he has made mistakes in the here and now for this current season. But for me that long term plan is more important. 

I’m patient too, I can see the improvements around the team and the potential within it. I just feel this season could, and arguably should have gone better, even if the result was ultimately still relegation. Some better planning, use of resources and decisions and the improvement on last time could have been greater.

[glory.win or die. 270]

6 hours ago, Grumpy said:

Most certainly the recruitment for this season has not delivered anything like that which we hoped for but I can't go along with this business of wanting to join in the blame game.

After all, Webber might be ultimately responsible for the signing of the players but the scouting team were no doubt given a remit as to what positions we needed strengthening and these are the result of their recommendations

Not sure we have a scouting team, didnt the head of recruitment leave of Boro?. Webber is the Head -of recruitment.  

[glory.win or die. 270]

4 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

I think at the very least Webber needs to hand over the recruitment totally to someone else, as quite frankly he's been pathetic in this area. 

He really has.

From my admittedly unreliable mind, I don't think we have sold any signing of Webber for a profit.

Actually, there was Marley Watkins but I think that's it.

Our model was to sign young players like Maddison,aarons, Godfrey etc who were all signed before he arrived.

 

[Mullet 293]

8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

But as most tickets are already bought and paid for each week, there are only 1500 casual tickets, the impact on gate receipts would be minimal?

Season ticket renewals might send a message but I've only seen one poster on here threaten not to renew.

Just because you've already paid up doesn't mean you have to go.

There would be no better statement than a half empty stadium and the club would have take it seriously. 

It won't happen though our fans are mostly clappers.

[hogesar 9,658]

6 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I've just searched the word 'neglect', and filtered by user TeemVanBasten, and the only time I've ever used that word is on this occasion...

I think somebody may be fibbing. Feel free to replicate this search if you don't believe me.

And on that note, I've got no interest in continuing this discussion, you are literally making things up now (and not for the first time).

EDIT: Yep, definitely lying, here was my exact post: 

And nobody at all called it out apart from you.

You are literally completely void of integrity as a person aren't you? Do you lie to your wife and friends like this? 

 

I mean, he wasn't lying and has the screenshots to prove it.

[Grumpy 122]

1 hour ago, glory.win or die. said:

Not sure we have a scouting team, didnt the head of recruitment leave of Boro?. Webber is the Head -of recruitment.  

Of course we have a scouting team or at least agents in other countries and the Head of Recruitment (wasn't his name Kieran Scott) did leave to take up a job as Sporting Director at Boro.Webber may well be Head of Recruitment but he sure as hell hasn't been travelling all over the world watching players.

Didn't Webber take on that title when Scott left.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Grumpy

[Greavsy 2,413]

Just catching up on a few threads since yesterday. 

Anyone seen @TeemuVanBasten since @hertfordyellow posted his proof? 

Hope TvB is ok - probably at the foodbank again...........

I saw someone mention the term 'Chugger'  before, I think 'Chunt' is more appropriate in this case. 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

If the alternative is Neil Adams then I’m not sure I want Webber out even though I think he is (or certainly comes across as) an insufferably arrogant individual who has f**ked up again massively this season as he did last time we went up.

I remain hugely concerned that the club is effectively run by him and his wife now with it seems very few checks and balances on them. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

If the alternative is Neil Adams then I’m not sure I want Webber out 

That does make me worry slightly, bombed out Bassong, replaced him with some complete has been and signed Lafferty and played him as a lanky winger - where he was nothing short of dreadful.

Cameron Jerome was a good signing though, got a lot out of the £1.5m we paid for him! 

[Greavsy 2,413]

Welcome back @TeemuVanBasten, 

Assume you are reading back over the thread, and typing your apology to @hertfordyellow following his posting of proof of the comment that you denied. 

Here's a link to his post to make it easier for you. 

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,338]

20 hours ago, Decemberists said:

The improved scouting, coaching and training facilities will bear fruit - but those are never immediate wins. He's got the long term future of the club spot on, but he has made mistakes in the here and now for this current season. But for me that long term plan is more important. 

And in the sporting director/head coach model, the long term (the infinite game) is Webber's role, whereas the immediate future is the coach's. So it's only fair to look at his achievements in those terms.

The player recruitment cuts across both time-frames, of course, and even if some of the signings prove more successful over the next year or two then they have this season, that's still a failure. I don't think anyone could say the first team squad is better now than it was a year ago. For me that's the biggest disappointment. I recognise how hard it is to stay up, but I think we'd all be feeling a lot better if we were in a real relegation scrap rather than fearing a repeat of last time. The cord on the yo-yo is slackening rather than tightening...

[Decemberists 42]

18 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Two points on that, we could have afforded fewer more expensive signings and I’d argue we should have done that. Second I don’t think it’s even true, take Southampton as a great example. Majority of their transfers in the last 2-3 seasons are in the 10-15 million range. Diallo, Salisu, Walker-Peter’s. Livramento cost less. Ok Armstrong cost 18, but for a striker (with a goalscoring pedigree) I don’t think that’s an outrageous outlay in todays market. You could argue wages they offer are higher, almost certainly true, but the idea we can’t afford the fees is not entirely true IMO.

Sorry I disagree, if we are giving Webber credit for overseeing the team that came up with transfer successes and youth development, he also has to own the failures. Not only that, contract renewals sit firmly in his camp. The Cantwell situation is poor player management. 

A talent that scored PL goals and was one of the few successes last time out, now has been managed out of the club for a fraction of his potential worth. That sits with Webber as the overall lead of the team responsible. It’s not the first time we’ve seen some questionable approaches to players, with them frozen out. It’s just times we’re good and this is the first high profile example of a player we wanted being managed that way.

I’m patient too, I can see the improvements around the team and the potential within it. I just feel this season could, and arguably should have gone better, even if the result was ultimately still relegation. Some better planning, use of resources and decisions and the improvement on last time could have been greater.

Good point on Cantwell contract I was looking at it purely through a form issue.

Perhaps not stretching to fewer more expensive players is a thought to potential relegation? Taking the wages and players back down might not be an option. Whereas I’d assume majority of our summer perm outlay will be staying with us in the championship?

[Decemberists 42]

7 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

And in the sporting director/head coach model, the long term (the infinite game) is Webber's role, whereas the immediate future is the coach's. So it's only fair to look at his achievements in those terms.

The player recruitment cuts across both time-frames, of course, and even if some of the signings prove more successful over the next year or two then they have this season, that's still a failure. I don't think anyone could say the first team squad is better now than it was a year ago. For me that's the biggest disappointment. I recognise how hard it is to stay up, but I think we'd all be feeling a lot better if we were in a real relegation scrap rather than fearing a repeat of last time. The cord on the yo-yo is slackening rather than tightening...

Yea the squad comparison is disappointing - keeping Buendia and Skipp didn’t seem likely in hindsight. 
 

It’s been far from perfect, it’s an opportunity that looks likely to pass us by. 
 

But it is an opportunity earned by Webber that he will earn again.

viva la webberlution! No time for faint hearts comrades. Never mind the danger. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Decemberists

[Robert N. LiM 4,338]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more that the time-frame becomes important. I think it's undeniable that the club is in a better state now than when Webber took over. I think it's also undeniable that we have a worse team now than we did last season. 

I suppose the interesting grey area is whether we are better off than we were last time we went down. I get the sense that most fans think we're not, that we'll struggle to bounce straight back this time. I think that's my feeling too. But how far that's based on a miserable Prem season rather than reality, I'm not sure. We might just be a couple of judicious signings away from a promotion-challenging squad. But then again this season has shown we are miles away from a relegation-avoiding squad. I think all the angst on this board comes from no one really knowing where we go from here. It's purgatorial.

[Monty13 2,231]

50 minutes ago, Decemberists said:

Good point on Cantwell contract I was looking at it purely through a form issue.

Perhaps not stretching to fewer more expensive players is a thought to potential relegation? Taking the wages and players back down might not be an option. Whereas I’d assume majority of our summer perm outlay will be staying with us in the championship?

If you keep building the squad with the Championship in mind then that’s where you deserve to be. 

I think we only brought in two players that genuinely improved the first team this summer in Rashica and Normann, and one of those was just a loan with an option. (I’d argue Williams as well but no chance we were ever keeping him after his loan)

Losing our best player and only bringing one permanent good signing in for our biggest ever summer spend is in the short term a failure IMO.

I hope over the next two seasons Gunn, Tzolis and Sargent will prove to be genuine PL class but I’m doubtful, and if we don’t keep hold of Rashica and lose genuinely good players like Aaron’s and Pukki (to age) the squads likely treading water or at best inching up in quality, at worst actually moving backwards if the PL squad average class is outpacing any improvement.

I hope we sign Normann (and he wants to come) as that’s a sign of a genuine ambition to improve the quality of this team to a PL level.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Monty13

[Robert N. LiM 4,338]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I hope we sign Normann (and he wants to come) as that’s a sign of a genuine ambition to improve the quality of this team to a PL level

That would certainly be a very positive sign and something to provoke a bit of optimism before another season in the Championship. And we could all do with some optimism at the moment.