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Branston Pickle

Worst refereeing performance or just VAR?

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VAR would have this down as a no goal and red card. 
Im sure many Englishmen would be happy but come on.... its an iconic football moment.
Part of what i used to love was watching a goal getting home to watch match of the day and realising your boy was a clear 10 ft offside or hit a blatent hand ball and you took a much needed 2-1 win. Gone are these days.

I think VAR has spoilt the game and it makes for even more lazy officiating. I mean, why bother keeping up with the game when you can watch a replay for all decisions?!

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3 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

I must be wrong as have seen no mention of it anywhere but there looked to be a stamp by Toney on Normann in the centre circle mid way through the second half. Normann went down and started protesting but then seemed to get on with the game pretty quickly. Anyone else see it? I was at the game so didn’t have any replays 

I saw that and I thought he could be off for the challenge. But VAR is subjective isn’t it! 👀
Expected Taylor to be a better ref than he was, quite frankly I felt he was poor. Ajer could have been sent off for two yellows in the first half but he allowed him to continue to make fouls with no consequences. 

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I thought Taylor was poor, and didn't have control of tge game at all. 

The two pens, upon seeing again would appear to be the correct decisions, however pukki offside was impossible to tell as motd didn't actuality show when the ball was played. 

My biggest gripe about var remains the fans lack of experience. It was shocking yesterday, had no idea what was being reviewed or why. At one point the screen said a review was ongoing after play had already restarted.. That has to improve for the paying, match attending fans. 

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Did MOTD show the Williams penalty shout. That of course was about two minutes before they got their penalty and whilst it was softish and I’ve yet to see a replay it was right in front of us and everyone at the time thought it was a clear pen.  

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1 hour ago, Canarychristopher said:

Ref was spot on today. Gibson and Hanley with a shocking performance at the back to blame not the VAR or officials. 

Utter **** - horrible performance: badly inconsistent, lost control, didn’t seem to have much of a clue what was going on - pretty sure it’s the worst I’ve seen this season.  
Var may have got the decisions we’ve seen correct, but it took far too long and there’s several we’ve not seen or weren’t looked at that should have been, so you cannot possibly comment whether it was “right”.  The fact is it’s use is inconsistent and today left 27000 people with no idea what the hell is going on; at Wembley last week it was 90,000 (and not all those decisions appeared to be right).  Offsides should be clear - none of this pathetic line-drawing to the nearest cm - or not given.  It really is that simple. Supporters on all sides do not want such decisions made by some arsehole in Stockley Park who can probably barely use a computer.

Edited by Branston Pickle

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26 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Did MOTD show the Williams penalty shout. That of course was about two minutes before they got their penalty and whilst it was softish and I’ve yet to see a replay it was right in front of us and everyone at the time thought it was a clear pen.  

No. 

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We were well beaten on the day by a team better equipped to win games in the EPL and we quite clearly do not have what we need to stay in this league, BUT:-

1. This was unquestionably one of the worst performances I have ever seen by a referee. From the very first minute, Taylor allowed Brentford to run the game, using every possible tactic they could think of. Not once - not once - did he show any inclination to stop them. Ajer should have been shown a yellow for his first pulling down of Rashica, but wasn't so he kept doing it until he got a yellow, and then he stopped. He received lots of fistbumps from his teammates when he got his yellow. That set the tone and pretty much every other Brentford player (including the mighty Eriksen) did the same thing, even into injury time when they were still holding the ball, kicking it away, hacking, pulling and pushing their way to their 3 points. They will congratulate themselves all the way to the bank, but I thought referees were there to stop cheating. Someone really should tell the clueless Taylor.

2. VAR. I really don't know if the decisions were correct or not. Having seen replays I still don't know, but that's why we have refs - to make the decisions. Adrian Forbes made the point on Canary Call that we've just transferred decision making from one referee to two and they have proven time and time again that they still make dreadful mistakes. The first Gibson penalty call is still a matter of opinion - was his foot too high? What about if there is no player near him, is his foot still too high? Everyone goes on about offside being a easy one to determine because a player either is or isn't but according to the laws of the game that is simply not true. To be offside you must be interfering with play. That is seldom discussed because no one knows what that means. Some refs take it as meaning "in the path of the ball"; some as "taking part in the move"; some as "obstructing a player, or a goalkeepers view: As an example the Cantwell incident at the Leicester game and a few similar ones were all ruled as offside. Since then, those which have occurred have been largely ignored. And don't get me started on the definition of "handball".

My point is that VAR is very much destroying the live experience of a football match. The same type of errors are still happening, because referrees are either human or incompetent buffoons depending on your viewpoint (I'm in the latter camp). All that has changed is that it now takes 3 minutes to make similar dreadful decisions and no one at the game has a clue what is happening. It breaks the game up, reduces the passion and the enjoyment. It doesn't "create" tension - most people in the crowd just got annoyed.

3. The offside flag - or lack of it. Whoever came up with this pearler really does need to be banished from the game. "Stepping up" and "holding a line" as part of a defender's skillset has almost disappeared because no one knows when or if that flag will be raised. Someone is going to be seriously injured unnecessarily soon if they don't change this.

I've said this before, back in the Hughton days when we were watching soulless, boring tactics in an effort to survive, and been villified for it but I still genuinely want no part of the EPL because for Norwich it is indeed completely pointless. When we get there we spend what we can but it has no chance of being enough and the games we get to see are either extremely boring, massively one sided or ruined by useless refs using uselessly inappropriate technology. 

Brentford this season, Sheff Utd previously and Burnley, Watford for several years and Stoke and even Wimbledon before them survived by embracing the dark arts. This Brentford team behaved differently to last season's. with virtually the same players - not better, not more pleasing on the eye, but more successful. It's a way of playing the game which defeats it's purpose, which is to entertain; and if people are not entertained they will stop watching.

Yesterday's game should probably have been a very entertaining 3-2 defeat. It would have been 10-15 years ago, but those days have gone in the EPL. But not yet in the Championship......and I can't wait to get back there and start enjoying watching again.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Did MOTD show the Williams penalty shout. That of course was about two minutes before they got their penalty and whilst it was softish and I’ve yet to see a replay it was right in front of us and everyone at the time thought it was a clear pen.  

Don't think so Jimbo. They also didn't show any evidence that the Pukki offside was offside. I've yet to see the lines drawn for that. I presume they exist? Especially as the VAR apologists said it got everything right.

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14 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Ref was awful today. Let them get away with fouling us constantly and a string of cynical strategic fouls 

He was letting lots of fouls go on both sides though if there was advantage to be had and I thought he let the play flow well. If we don't take advantage of a lenient ref that's our fault.

I can only remember a couple of strange ones: 

a handball by a Brentford player that he seemed to let go because we had possession but then we handballed immediately after-he gave them the freekick rather than to us for the initial handball;

a bad foul by one of their players in the first half that he played advantage for but then didn't go back and book the player.

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14 hours ago, essex canary said:

The 'clear and obvious' principle with VAR should mean clear and obvious to the naked eye as distinct from clear and obvious to a slide rule.

"Clear and obvious error" does not apply to offside. If it's offside, it's offside, if it's onside, it's onside..

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53 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

We were well beaten on the day by a team better equipped to win games in the EPL and we quite clearly do not have what we need to stay in this league, BUT:-

1. This was unquestionably one of the worst performances I have ever seen by a referee. From the very first minute, Taylor allowed Brentford to run the game, using every possible tactic they could think of. Not once - not once - did he show any inclination to stop them. Ajer should have been shown a yellow for his first pulling down of Rashica, but wasn't so he kept doing it until he got a yellow, and then

       + lots more

 

An excellent post and one I agree with completely.

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VAR is obviously here to stay

If it goes our teams way Great

If it goes against us then VAR is rubbish 

That’s human nature

With all the problems in the world at the moment amazing to see fans in the South Stand wanting to fight

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1 hour ago, daly said:

VAR is obviously here to stay

If it goes our teams way Great

If it goes against us then VAR is rubbish 

That’s human nature

With all the problems in the world at the moment amazing to see fans in the South Stand wanting to fight

You see that isn't my issue with VAR. That would be true I guess for those watching on TV. But it's certainly not true for those at the games. 

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3 minutes ago, Contrary Canary said:

The offside is a lot closer than many think.

To me it looks like McLeans right shoulder is playing Pukki onside?

B24128FE-6E3A-4E83-B0F8-87E47B7DEB5B.png

Did the linesman flag?

Edited by nutty nigel

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I’m not too sure if he flagged, but I wonder if the lines were drawn between the tracking Brentford defender and Pukki — and not by checking which norwich player was furthest forward.

To me it’s more akin to a goal in which the striker is one on one and cuts it across to a teammate that runs onto the ball and can score in an empty goal.

I would like to think VAR are competent enough to check/dispute that, but that is at least my understanding. I get that perspective might mean that Pukki is still infact further forward, but it’s definitely closer than it has been reported.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Did the linesman flag?

Doesn't matter. Every goal is checked by VAR. It wouldn't matter if Hanley hit one from 80 yards into the top corner. VAR would check it.

And it has nothing to do with TV viewers either. Its all about the big clubs saying the game was too important for referees to look after the game. It was meant to eradicate mistakes. Now we have handball that was always ball to hand or hand to ball is now whether its the skin or sleeve or how far away was he.

And of course now they are regretting it was ever used. When its in your favour its good when its not its rubbish.

Now the EFL want to bring in a Lite version that doesn't use lines for offside!!! Yet that is the most accurate part of VAR and nowhere near as questionable as handball or fouls.

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55 minutes ago, Contrary Canary said:

The offside is a lot closer than many think.

To me it looks like McLeans right shoulder is playing Pukki onside?

B24128FE-6E3A-4E83-B0F8-87E47B7DEB5B.png

Pukki's left foot looks ahead of the ball. You can't be offside if you're behind the ball - but in that one Pukki's left peg does look ahead.

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6 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Doesn't matter. Every goal is checked by VAR. It wouldn't matter if Hanley hit one from 80 yards into the top corner. VAR would check it.

And it has nothing to do with TV viewers either. Its all about the big clubs saying the game was too important for referees to look after the game. It was meant to eradicate mistakes. Now we have handball that was always ball to hand or hand to ball is now whether its the skin or sleeve or how far away was he.

And of course now they are regretting it was ever used. When its in your favour its good when its not its rubbish.

Now the EFL want to bring in a Lite version that doesn't use lines for offside!!! Yet that is the most accurate part of VAR and nowhere near as questionable as handball or fouls.

But you said every decision was right. I have yet to see any evidence that this offside was right. What did you see that I haven't?

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6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

 

Pukki's left foot looks ahead of the ball. You can't be offside if you're behind the ball - but in that one Pukki's left peg does look ahead.

I thought VAR was supposed to eradicate 'looks to be'

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Just now, nutty nigel said:

I thought VAR was supposed to eradicate 'looks to be'

Not dead level, so I was guessing slightly. Going off the stripes on the pitch, I'd guess-estimate he's a foot-and-a-half offside.

Edited by TheGunnShow

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8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

 

Pukki's left foot looks ahead of the ball. You can't be offside if you're behind the ball - but in that one Pukki's left peg does look ahead.

Fair! I agree the left foot looks ahead.

Wasn’t too sure if the rule was from the ball to furthest forward, or furthest forward player to receiver.

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Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Not dead level, so I was guessing slightly.

I know, I wasn't criticising you. But surely the lines were drawn when this was checked? 

Don't forget Pukki was looking along the line trying to fill the space but remain onside.

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I know, I wasn't criticising you. But surely the lines were drawn when this was checked? 

Don't forget Pukki was looking along the line trying to fill the space but remain onside.

He can look along the line all he wants, if part of his foot is ahead of the ball at the moment the ball is played and he's ahead of the second-last defender then he's off!

My criticisms of VAR are different to some, but I've said them a fair few times on here already, so no need to repeat.

Edited by TheGunnShow

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6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

But you said every decision was right. I have yet to see any evidence that this offside was right. What did you see that I haven't?

I saw the replays that VAR saw and have to agree that as small as the margin may be, he was just offside.

VAR wasn't introduced to help Norwich beat Brentford. It was introduced to ensure Liverpool, the Mancs, Chelsea etc were not denied the money spinning Champions league spot because of an offside decision.

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1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

He can look along the line all he wants, if part of his foot is ahead of the ball, he's off!

My criticisms of VAR are different to some, but I've said them a fair few times on here already, so no need to repeat.

So were the lines drawn when the decision was made? I thought that was usual. We didn't see on MOTD. 

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1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

I saw the replays that VAR saw and have to agree that as small as the margin may be, he was just offside.

VAR wasn't introduced to help Norwich beat Brentford. It was introduced to ensure Liverpool, the Mancs, Chelsea etc were not denied the money spinning Champions league spot because of an offside decision.

But that's not the point. Or not for me. I don't think anyone can judge if Pukki was offside by looking at this still. Did you see anything more definite on your screen?

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4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So were the lines drawn when the decision was made? I thought that was usual. We didn't see on MOTD. 

Don't know either, I'm afraid.

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19 hours ago, Petriix said:

This is clutching at straws. Gibson gave away two penalties. We had two marginal calls waved away. Nothing would've changed the outcome. This was at home against the worst (form) team in the league. It's nothing but our own fault.

Watched the highlights today and for the second penalty, Gibson clearly won the ball and the player fell over Gibson foot. The ball had gone out from Gibson's tackle. 

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