So if we go down how much of a squad rebuild will we need?

[king canary 7,580]

2 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Based on what?

I think he's probably right that Farke just didn't seem to fancy him but I do think he could be more of a Smith type player.

[hertfordyellow 460]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

If we go with a worst case scenario and say Aarons, Cantwell, Dimi, Rashica and all the loanees leave we're still left with a starting XI of...

Krul, Byram, Omobamidele, Gibson, McCallum, PLM, Sorenson, Sargent, Dowell, Tzolis, Pukki.

With Gunn, Mumba, Hanley, McLean, Dowell and Idah in reserve off the top of my head.

That looks solid enough to me before we talk about additions. I'd imagine the sales listed above would raise around the £50m mark and while we clearly wouldn't be spending all of that it would give us some cash to spend on a few quality additions. 

This is where I'm at. There is enough there to build a top 6 Championship side. If Dimi and Rashica do stay then thats two more top Championship performers. This isn't even mentioning youth that might be ready for a step up Daniel Adshead, Flynn Clarke, Jonathon Rowe, Josh Martin might have a role to play. I would suspect investment to. While we are underwhelmed by Tzolis this season, if he stays I think he might rinse the Championship (based on his cup performance).

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Agreed that Normann’s injury record could be a deterrent but ‘decent but not exceptional’ performances is more than a bit harsh to describe our head and shoulders best player up to his injury?! He was the only individual getting plaudits under Farke - in an extremely dysfunctional team. He showed some signs of getting back to match sharpness against Liverpool and imagine he will now be settling back in the central midfield as our best CM. For me he will be one who 100% will have interest from a top league and will be a bit of a coup to keep him for the champs. So I will be delighted if he stays.

It wasn't meant to be harsh, but my point is more that his performances (and limited appearances due to injury) are unlikely to have alerted any top division clubs. He's not been an exceptional standout for the entire season, he just looked 'good' in a very poor team, where perhaps anyone with a bit of his attitude might have done so.

I'd be delighted to keep him too, as it happens.

[Michael Starr 519]

I wouldn't be so confident in the Championship next season. Skipp and Buendia pretty much dragged this team last season single handedly. We won't have them this time.

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

20 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

I wouldn't be so confident in the Championship next season. Skipp and Buendia pretty much dragged this team last season single handedly. We won't have them this time.

I suppose it depends upon how effectively those two places are filled, in the context of next season, that is.

Recent performances give us hope that we should be a force once again. It may not be as easy, but we will have evolved as a team. I sense we are tighter at the back since Smith took over. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by BroadstairsR

[BurwellCanary 215]

9 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

I wouldn't be so confident in the Championship next season. Skipp and Buendia pretty much dragged this team last season single handedly. We won't have them this time.

Personally I would like to see a Championship side being developed that would have a better chance of PL survival rather than what we have seen/are seeing. The ability to grind out results when playing better teams (on paper). We have started to see that under S and S. If that takes a couple of years or so - so what. Its better than this up and down bulls**t

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

2 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

‘Whether he likes it or not’ isn’t exactly how we handled the Buendia situation… nor any player sale. I personally think Rashica will go if we get offered say £15mil plus for him. Unless he wants to stick it out in the champs with us?!

But the situations are nowhere near the same, which is why i posted as I did. Indeed there is no-one in the current squad in that kind of situation.

[Mr Tea 105]

I would be surprised is Dean / Shakey  left. I think they knew what they where taking on and maybe yes they would go if we didnt come straight back up but not before giving it one season . 

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

But the situations are nowhere near the same, which is why i posted as I did. Indeed there is no-one in the current squad in that kind of situation.

If we keep reject reasonable bids and keep Rashica against his will then that will be the outlier, not my example of Buendia.

What makes you think we’d force him to stay unless silly money comes in when we have historically always let players go as soon as an example bid comes in?

Edited February 21, 2022 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Monty13 2,229]

5 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Rashica will stay, whether he likes it or not, unless we get offered very silly money for him. There is a very decent chance Normann will agree to joining us permanently. Possibly Williams too. A starting-eleven striker will be signed, since there is as far as I can gather, going on reports, no solid evidence that Idah, when fit, has the makings of a top of the league Championship player, and Sargent seems to be only sort of a striker.

Think you are right on Rashica unless he forces a move.

Think the only reason Normann would join is if his injury record puts off others, he’s looked every bit a PL player.

Not sure why you think Williams would join, I think he’s been one of our best performers and in a team that isn’t defending most of the time could excel. He’s not going to take a Championship loan and I can’t see any way we could afford him permanently in the Champ even if he wanted to come.

Idah I think is a conundrum, he was starting to look more than good enough for too Championship before his injury. If we don’t intend to use him more than sporadically and we bring in a new guy I think we have to loan him out as a regular starter to another Championship club or his career is going to continue to stall.

[Capt. Pants 4,202]

1 hour ago, Mr Tea said:

I would be surprised is Dean / Shakey  left. I think they knew what they where taking on and maybe yes they would go if we didnt come straight back up but not before giving it one season . 

 

At the rate Leicester are going there might be a vacancy there soon. He's the type of manager they would go for.

[king canary 7,580]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

But the situations are nowhere near the same, which is why i posted as I did. Indeed there is no-one in the current squad in that kind of situation.

I really don't see how you can say that with any confidence. We'll undoubtedly need to sell a couple of players on relegation and outside of Aarons, Rashica seems the most likely to have suitors. It also isn't beyond the realm of possibility that he has a release clause after relegation.

[king canary 7,580]

11 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Think you are right on Rashica unless he forces a move.

Think the only reason Normann would join is if his injury record puts off others, he’s looked every bit a PL player.

Not sure why you think Williams would join, I think he’s been one of our best performers and in a team that isn’t defending most of the time could excel. He’s not going to take a Championship loan and I can’t see any way we could afford him permanently in the Champ even if he wanted to come.

Idah I think is a conundrum, he was starting to look more than good enough for too Championship before his injury. If we don’t intend to use him more than sporadically and we bring in a new guy I think we have to loan him out as a regular starter to another Championship club or his career is going to continue to stall.

There is no chance Williams joins us permanently and very little that Normann does if we go down. Reportedly we had agreed an optional fee of around £11m for Normann, there is little to no chance we're spending that on a single player in the Championship.

Purple is usually a sensible poster but that post is bizarrely off base.

[nutty nigel 7,513]

It was only a few weeks ago there were posts about how many of our players would get in another PL team. It does seem we fear losing more than were thought good enough.

[shefcanary 2,389]

10 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

At the rate Leicester are going there might be a vacancy there soon. He's the type of manager they would go for.

oh **** - shushh!!!

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

11 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

It was only a few weeks ago there were posts about how many of our players would get in another PL team. It does seem we fear losing more than were thought good enough.

Not for me. Outside of the four loans, who were never likely to stay post relegation, I don’t think people are expecting we lose more than Aarons and Rashica to better teams, with out of favour players like Cantwell and Giannoulis possibly going too. So only 2 permanent players I am expecting us to sell ‘against our will’.

 

[ged in the onion bag 854]

23 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

McCallum has played 8 games for QPR. He isn't making it here and will be sold.

Is this really your level of argument!   

[nutty nigel 7,513]

28 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Not for me. Outside of the four loans, who were never likely to stay post relegation, I don’t think people are expecting we lose more than Aarons and Rashica to better teams, with out of favour players like Cantwell and Giannoulis possibly going too. So only 2 permanent players I am expecting us to sell ‘against our will’.

 

Not for me either. I think if we are relegated we maybe can hold on to Aarons and Rashica. A lot probably depends on who would get promoted and how much they spend.

However I haven't got anywhere near accepting relegation is a done deal.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

35 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Not for me either. I think if we are relegated we maybe can hold on to Aarons and Rashica. A lot probably depends on who would get promoted and how much they spend.

However I haven't got anywhere near accepting relegation is a done deal.

Your original point was that fans who have written off this team now seem to fancy lots of our players being lost to PL or equivalent sides - I was just pointing out that there are only two important players being mentioned - ignoring the loans. So hardly an expected fire sale!

But in response to your post; do you not think we will sell anyone then if we get relegated? Bailey has been writing a lot about our need to sell before we can buy in the next window - again assuming it is a championship one. I think any incoming transfer business will be roughly reflective of the players we sell.

Although we would have a pretty well equipped squad to bounce back if we did hold on to everyone (and recruited new loanees well too), I have a feeling that Webber would prefer to let one or two of the bigger fruits leave so he can plant some new seeds!

[nutty nigel 7,513]

24 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Your original point was that fans who have written off this team now seem to fancy lots of our players being lost to PL or equivalent sides - I was just pointing out that there are only two important players being mentioned - ignoring the loans. So hardly an expected fire sale!

But in response to your post; do you not think we will sell anyone then if we get relegated? Bailey has been writing a lot about our need to sell before we can buy in the next window - again assuming it is a championship one. I think any incoming transfer business will be roughly reflective of the players we sell.

Although we would have a pretty well equipped squad to bounce back if we did hold on to everyone (and recruited new loanees well too), I have a feeling that Webber would prefer to let one or two of the bigger fruits leave so he can plant some new seeds!

My original point was that people thought we had no players that other PL sides would want but people seem afraid we"ll lose players to other PL clubs.

I don't know if we will sell but I hope not however I'm not convinced we will be relegated. The wide acceptance of relegation seems so negative to me.

As for Webber he has to balance the new seeds with established players. I would have thought Rashica would be a player he'd feel it very important to keep.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

I really don't see how you can say that with any confidence. We'll undoubtedly need to sell a couple of players on relegation and outside of Aarons, Rashica seems the most likely to have suitors. It also isn't beyond the realm of possibility that he has a release clause after relegation.

Buendia had been with us for three seasons and stayed with us for a season back in the Championship. We paid finally around £5.5m for him and we sold him for a basic £33m, which enabled us to fund significant squad building (whether that was the right thing to do is another matter). Buendia may well have had some kind of promise that we would let him go but even if not he was in a strong position to force a move. 

By contrast Rashica has been with us less than a season and only recently started to make a name for himself. He cost close to £10m so would not bring in the kind of profit we made on Buendia. And he doesn't have that kind of clout to demand a move that Buendia had. We may sell him but unless he has a relegation clause it won't be because we are forced to even though we don't want to. That is why the comparison is flawed.

The two likeliest to go, and give us some money to spend, are Aarons and Cantwell. As to Normann, I think the one certainly is that he won't play for Rostov again, so he will go somewhere. Given that, there is a chance he might be willing to join us. I don't see that supposed fee of £11m being beyond us if we do sell both Aarons and Cantwell.

But for me the key acquisition is a potential starting striker (even more so than a central defensive midfielder...) and they tend to be expensive, so if it was either or then the striker would certainly trump Normann as a necessity.

[king canary 7,580]

1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

By contrast Rashica has been with us less than a season and only recently started to make a name for himself.

Joining Norwich wasn't the start of his career though. Pre joining us he was heavily linked with clubs like Villa for a significant sum of money. I don't doubt that if he has a strong finish to the season he'll have people willing to pay a solid fee for him and I can't imagine he'll be happy if we reject those sorts of bids. So it will be a test for the club no doubt.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

37 minutes ago, king canary said:

Joining Norwich wasn't the start of his career though. Pre joining us he was heavily linked with clubs like Villa for a significant sum of money. I don't doubt that if he has a strong finish to the season he'll have people willing to pay a solid fee for him and I can't imagine he'll be happy if we reject those sorts of bids. So it will be a test for the club no doubt.

That is a fair point about Rashica being some way into his career. But to be clear I wasn't saying we might not have a fight to keep Rashica. The contrast I was making was between that being a fight we might well win, even if the player wanted to leave, and the situation with Buendia, where I believe the circumstances were such that we had very little realistic chance of keeping him, and there was a strong argument that selling that one would enable to buy several others.

[Monty13 2,229]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

There is no chance Williams joins us permanently and very little that Normann does if we go down. Reportedly we had agreed an optional fee of around £11m for Normann, there is little to no chance we're spending that on a single player in the Championship.

Purple is usually a sensible poster but that post is bizarrely off base.

Williams fully agree, Normann I think if the idea is really to keep improving the squad to be competitive in the PL then that’s the sort of figure we need to start paying. That said I just don’t believe he’d be interested or there wouldn’t be a top flight club ready to come in after what he’s showed this season.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

Cantwell's pretty much gone, I would say. The loanees won't be coming back, unless the Cantwell dosh is enough to persuade either Williams or Normann to stay. I'd keep Rupp if we go down, but not if we stay up - even with his increasing years and susceptibility to injury he's proven class in the Championship and would be an excellent senior pro to have in the ranks in the event of a relegation.

Still think we're mistakenly sleeping on Sörensen for the defensive midfield spot, he seems to have been forgotten again with that knee injury. Tzolis and Placheta should hopefully be better integrated - Tzolis can look a bit lackadaisical, and Placheta looks like he's trying too hard. Omobamidele should hopefully be ready to stake a claim for more minutes, as should Idah, McCullum, Mumba, and Rowe.

Wouldn't be too sad if Aarons went. He's served us with distinction, professionalism, and focus and if a mid-table Prem club fancies him and pays £20m or more with add-ons, then I'd be thinking "shake your hand, Max, thanks for some cracking memories, and here's hoping you blossom wherever you go". Byram and Mumba should be more than enough for the Champs.

Can see a fair scrap brewing to keep hold of both Rashica and Sargent, both have a relegation together with Bremen. That said, I do suspect we probably pay better money than 2. Bundesliga teams (does anyone have research on that, please?) so it'll probably be a lower Prem side or lower 1. Bundesliga outfit who is most likely to get them.

[king canary 7,580]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Cantwell's pretty much gone, I would say. The loanees won't be coming back, unless the Cantwell dosh is enough to persuade either Williams or Normann to stay. I'd keep Rupp if we go down, but not if we stay up - even with his increasing years and susceptibility to injury he's proven class in the Championship and would be an excellent senior pro to have in the ranks in the event of a relegation.

Still think we're mistakenly sleeping on Sörensen for the defensive midfield spot, he seems to have been forgotten again with that knee injury. Tzolis and Placheta should hopefully be better integrated - Tzolis can look a bit lackadaisical, and Placheta looks like he's trying too hard. Omobamidele should hopefully be ready to stake a claim for more minutes, as should Idah, McCullum, Mumba, and Rowe.

Wouldn't be too sad if Aarons went. He's served us with distinction, professionalism, and focus and if a mid-table Prem club fancies him and pays £20m or more with add-ons, then I'd be thinking "shake your hand, Max, thanks for some cracking memories, and here's hoping you blossom wherever you go". Byram and Mumba should be more than enough for the Champs.

Can see a fair scrap brewing to keep hold of both Rashica and Sargent, both have a relegation together with Bremen. That said, I do suspect we probably pay better money than 2. Bundesliga teams (does anyone have research on that, please?) so it'll probably be a lower Prem side or lower 1. Bundesliga outfit who is most likely to get them.

I'd also add Dowell to your list of players who should be able to step up in the league below.

Honestly I think even with the loanees and the potential loss of Aarons, Cantwell and Rashica, we'd still have a solid squad with a bit of investment needed up front and out wide.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

20 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'd also add Dowell to your list of players who should be able to step up in the league below.

Honestly I think even with the loanees and the potential loss of Aarons, Cantwell and Rashica, we'd still have a solid squad with a bit of investment needed up front and out wide.

If Rashica went, Tzolis should really see that as his chance - or indeed Placheta. I do think Tzolis and Giannoulis is an obvious combo to build on next season. I'd say we'd need another striker and a young powerhouse of a central midfielder as both McLean and Lees-Melou are not exactly the youngest, and Rupp certainly isn't. Don't think we're that short of wing options. And if the likes of Omotoye, Dickson-Peters and Kamara kick on, they could start knocking on the door. We do need the succession plan in place for Pukki now.

One of our young goalies had better start getting a move on for that number three spot and be able to put real pressure at number two. Maybe Tomlinson is getting to the point where he's pressuring Zimmermann hard.

EDIT: I dunno about Dowell. Can see why people would think that, I'm just not sure he fits how we're playing now. I think he's one of those who'd do better under Farke than Smith.

Edited February 22, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[king canary 7,580]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

If Rashica went, Tzolis should really see that as his chance - or indeed Placheta. I do think Tzolis and Giannoulis is an obvious combo to build on next season. I'd say we'd need another striker and a young powerhouse of a central midfielder as both McLean and Lees-Melou are not exactly the youngest, and Rupp certainly isn't. Don't think we're that short of wing options. And if the likes of Omotoye, Dickson-Peters and Kamara kick on, they could start knocking on the door. We do need the succession plan in place for Pukki now.

One of our young goalies had better start getting a move on for that number three spot and be able to put real pressure at number two. Maybe Tomlinson is getting to the point where he's pressuring Zimmermann hard.

I'm not confident on the idea of our wide options being Placheta (works hard but very limited) and Tzolis (looks totally lost at this point) hence the need for another option there in my view (unless we can keep Rashica).

I'm also pretty certain Giannoulis will leave if we go down. His agent was already making noises about it before January and I can see him pushing for the exit door. 

The Pukki succession plan is the big one though. Idah looks like he's got something but Omotoye is currently doing nothing in League Two and Kamara/Dickson-Peters are complete unknowns. 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not confident on the idea of our wide options being Placheta (works hard but very limited) and Tzolis (looks totally lost at this point) hence the need for another option there in my view (unless we can keep Rashica).

I'm also pretty certain Giannoulis will leave if we go down. His agent was already making noises about it before January and I can see him pushing for the exit door. 

The Pukki succession plan is the big one though. Idah looks like he's got something but Omotoye is currently doing nothing in League Two and Kamara/Dickson-Peters are complete unknowns. 

For me, Placheta suffers from the fact that Pukki's our main man up top, and Sargent's the main presence on the right. Threading low crosses in is not his forte. Give him a big lad or two to aim at and I think you'll solve a few of his issues. Rashica's playing far too well for any switches there and has a natural partnership with Sargent due to their time together at Bremen.

But I reckon if you put Placheta on the left, Idah up top and Sargent on the right, that could be lethal if it clicked. All Placheta would need to do is work a yard of space and float balls in.

[Danke bitte 965]

8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

For me, Placheta suffers from the fact that Pukki's our main man up top, and Sargent's the main presence on the right. Threading low crosses in is not his forte. Give him a big lad or two to aim at and I think you'll solve a few of his issues. Rashica's playing far too well for any switches there and has a natural partnership with Sargent due to their time together at Bremen.

But I reckon if you put Placheta on the left, Idah up top and Sargent on the right, that could be lethal if it clicked. All Placheta would need to do is work a yard of space and float balls in.

Don’t forget about our footballing equivalent of a unicorn… that mysteriously elusive DM..